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“Self coach on the pitch”


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2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Great film. What specifically do you mean?

Might watch it tomorrow now you've reminded me!

One player ***** up, entire squad gets reprimanded. Basketball flick. Biographic, based on the real deal on an incident from back in 1999 when he taught at Richmond High School, where a couple players were failing high school on grades. They were undefeated and he forfeited games until they got their grades up to a sufficient level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Carter

Edited by Fuber
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11 hours ago, Meh said:

Oh god- I take it that is this weeks excuse?

As opposed to starting weak tacklers in midfield positions and a centre back at right back and handing the advantage to the opposition from the start which would fall on the coaching team.

Interesting !!

Did our coach turn up at Elland road Not the long thing With 10 wheels but LJ. ????😝

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6 hours ago, BanburyRed said:

Bristol City head coach Lee Johnson told BBC Radio Bristol:

"I was disappointed in the first 25-30 minutes, I just felt we froze a bit. The flair players were too easily bullied and got caught in the headlights"

So, flair players?  Eliasson?  Massengo?  Paterson?

Kalas, Baker, Williams & Dasilva as a (slightly lopsided) back 4 or back 3 with Dasilva left side midfield with Eliasson on opposite flank?  Leaving Massengo, Henriksen & Paterson in midfield (more advanced?), Weimann together with or off Wells up front. 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 or 5-3-2, who knows.

Smith obviously a big miss in midfield, lots of responsibility on the shoulders of 18yr old Massengo, but there should be enough experience on the pitch in the more 'savvy' players to 'self coach' and work things out if not going well.  Unless the coach tells them otherwise - stick to my plan and if i need to, i'll change it.  More a case of 'do as i say'.....

If someone had offered 1-0 away to Leeds, how many would've taken it before the game?  Sounds like the manner of the performance (again) and the stats don't make pretty reading.

I think most of us would have excepted the loss if the majority of City players  that started at Elland road had the chance to play in their correct positions , played with passion, played with commitment as they are part of the best squad in this league but they played like a mid league 1 club for the majority of the first half. Even the poorer performers yesterday we all know they have quality if they have the chance to express it on the field. Something is not quite correct at the club for some reason and I do not think LJ is 100% of the reason but does seem a factor as one week it clicks and the next it turns poor. There was a famous saying in a movie and I can not remember which movie “life’s like a box of mixed chocolates and you never know which one you get” Just like City at the moment as consistency is all over the place.

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11 hours ago, Lew-T said:

In fairness it wasn’t as bad as I thought after hearing it a second time.

But he said along the lines that 6 or 7 players came out second half and showed guts. Then at the end he said a couple of them didn’t believe in themselves enough.

Just don’t think it’s necessary.

Why? The alternative is the robots we get giving zero insight 

nothing wrong with what he’s said in my opinion. 

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11 hours ago, Alan Dicks said:

It's simple, he's a decent manager, not a top coach at this level.

I will play the game.... i genuinely don’t know this but what other coach has made more money on players in last 4 seasons outside the prem?

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1 hour ago, City oz said:

I think most of us would have excepted the loss if the majority of City players  that started at Elland road had the chance to play in their correct positions , played with passion, played with commitment as they are part of the best squad in this league but they played like a mid league 1 club for the majority of the first half. Even the poorer performers yesterday we all know they have quality if they have the chance to express it on the field. Something is not quite correct at the club for some reason and I do not think LJ is 100% of the reason but does seem a factor as one week it clicks and the next it turns poor. There was a famous saying in a movie and I can not remember which movie “life’s like a box of mixed chocolates and you never know which one you get” Just like City at the moment as consistency is all over the place.

Forrest Gump

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If you have or ever plan to visit Bali there is a restaurant in Kuta called the shrimp. It has the forest gump movie playing continuously on several screens. The restaurant is full of the forest gump memorabilia . If you order the cocktail of the day all the waiters come up to the table and sing the forest gump sound track . It’s also a good stop over from the UK to OZ . 

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8 hours ago, The Bard said:

That would make sense.  Calling out an 18 year old and our most creative player.   He clearly doesn't appraise his own interviews..

That was my interpretation...no names were given. But from what was said and viewing with my own eyes...Massengo and Eliasson most certainly imo, and Pato to a certain degree. DaSilva first half as well.

I don't have a problem with what LJ says.

It's honest...he gives praise when they do well as well.

He's candid and forthright in his views. Some of the players need to man up. Some really have, like Taylor Moore. Love his attitude...never goes hiding.

Edited by spudski
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If football coaches and managers really want players to think for themselves more on the pitch, during a game, my suggestion to football coaches and managers would be to pipe down during games, sit in your luxury, padded, heated seats, and shut up, during the games. Maybe get yourself an upturned bucket to sit on. Or sit in the stand.

Imagine imploring your child to work things out for themselves while they are tackling their homework, then spending the whole time they are doing it shouting at them, cajoling them, instructing them, correcting them, rebuking them, praising them, pointing, etc?

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1 hour ago, Rob k said:

I will play the game.... i genuinely don’t know this but what other coach has made more money on players in last 4 seasons outside the prem?

That’s great and with the proceeds he seems to have built a very one dimensional outfit that can only play on the break and only grind out a result, against all but the very worst teams at this level.

As I have said before until the Investor actually gives a shit about reaching the Premiership (I just don’t think it’s that high on his priority list right now) or unless season ticket sales bomb the people moaning at LJ are wasting their breath.

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1 hour ago, Rob k said:

I will play the game.... i genuinely don’t know this but what other coach has made more money on players in last 4 seasons outside the prem?

Good manager in that respect but only average at best at coaching on the pitch, how many times do we see City play where the team looks like they've never played together before?

Balance that with teams that seem to know what to do as a unit and stick to it.

On paper Leeds man for man are really no better than what we have here, difference is they have a top coach who can orchestrate them brilliantly despite the fact they have a weak frontline.

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Bit surprised by the reaction on this thread. Why the obsession with some ridiculous soundbite (which we know so often is where LJ shoots himself in the foot) when the problems were all so glaringly, predictably obvious. I didn't think there was anything particularly confusing or surprising about the performance yesterday - frankly I thought our starting line up lacked outlets and saw the game I expected.

Leeds move the ball well and at speed, it was exactly what they did on the opening day of the season, we could hardly have been surprised by it, we'd seen it all before. All their players are comfortable running with it, and as others have said, they give themselves angles the whole way up the pitch they go, in particular having a player who will make a driving run into the channel behind us to create chances. 

We simply don't move the ball well unless we have a target because we mostly go direct, which in the weather yesterday was often futile. Only Dasilva and Paterson, and O'Dowda when on, exhibit the same characteristics of being able to drive forward on the ball, and yesterday Dasilva was overrun defending (but did a decent job as the game developed), while Leeds got tight to and nullified Paterson's freedom.

Interesting that Leeds players could manage both (attacking movement and press/contain). It wasn't like we over-invested in one over the other, we certainly didn't nullify their movement AND that wasn't because our players were over committed driving forward. We did neither. Weimann is the perfect (now monotonous) example. A complete non entity. Didn't get compact and help Dasilva, didn't get on the ball.

I suppose all LJ is referring to is that absence of thought and composure from players. We didn't effect the game in anyway for the first 30 minutes, frankly it was horrific stuff, and you infantilise the players as passive, robotic non-entities if you channel your frustration into LJ's comments. How about players not look terrified like they're in a cup game away at Elland Road when they're 7th in the table and in form.

Case in point, Dasilva was under all out assault from Costa and their channel runners, but as the game developed he got to grips with it and was one of our better players with and without the ball, in particular driving forward. I could excuse his slow start given he got zero support from forward players, but how come so few were ready to go at 3pm or able to make such adjustments under pressure in order to settle? 

If you want to bash LJ it'd be worth exploring how well drilled the players are or how uncomfortable they were with their instructions for yesterday and the alterations in the line up. Or how badly we miss Diedhiou when playing away from home. Or whether we had any real captaincy or organisation on the pitch that a Korey might have provided. But no today's topic is LJ's choice of words in his post-match interview!

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2 hours ago, Alan Dicks said:

Good manager in that respect but only average at best at coaching on the pitch, how many times do we see City play where the team looks like they've never played together before?

Balance that with teams that seem to know what to do as a unit and stick to it.

On paper Leeds man for man are really no better than what we have here, difference is they have a top coach who can orchestrate them brilliantly despite the fact they have a weak frontline.

Name one player who is in the same league as Calvin Phillips? 
For such a good coach they are only 6 points ahead of us 

Edited by Rob k
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13 hours ago, spudski said:

I really couldn't say...we don't know what's said in training. However... I've noticed certain traits that stand out for me. Players that seem to tick boxes and are neither poor or decide not to take the bull by the horns so to speak are rewarded. Then those that when under the kosh, try to do something away from the 'party line' so to speak soon get dropped. Taylor Moore and Palmer the two noticeable.

The players aren't playing with any freedom. They look restrained.

Absolutely agree. And that's not just a criticism of LJ either, some of the fans are just as bad.

A player who has the guts to get on the ball in tight spaces and make things happen is criticised and chastised for giving it away too much blah blah blah. Gets right on my nerves. 

Unless the decision by the player is just an outright a shocker, we shouldn't be critical of someone for trying to get on the ball and play the right way. So easy to hide or to just play an easy ball and wait for somebody else to make an error.

Edited by Kibs
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17 minutes ago, Kibs said:

Absolutely agree. And that's not just a criticism of LJ either, some of the fans are just as bad.

A player who has the guts to get on the ball in tight spaces and make things happen is criticised and chastised for giving it away too much blah blah blah. Gets right on my nerves. 

Unless the decision by the player is just an outright a shocker, we shouldn't be critical of someone for trying to get on the ball and play the right way. So easy to hide or to just play an easy ball and wait for somebody else to make an error.

I totally agree. Unfortunately imo, those who have tried soon get dropped. I've thought Taylor Moore has often tried to make things happen and he's done very well when playing for us. Trying to play football. Him and DaSilva imo, could make a good partnership.

The problem our defenders have when trying to play out, is the lack of movement in front of them and desire to receive the ball...which often leads to the ball having to be recycled and eventually punted forward because of being closed down...or someone trying to run with it.

Imo...we have a bunch of midfielders that are busy bees, but not brilliant technically at receiving the ball with their back to goal and opposition breathing down their necks. Some look frightened to receive the ball in those situations and go missing. Most seem fine when facing the opposition....but lack composure and self belief in their abilities.

I've come to the conclusion that some of these players have the ability, but are too scared to make mistakes for the fear of castigation.

Everyone looks shackled and fearful.

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13 hours ago, Cowshed said:

You are missing the point I was making. A team is a reflection of its Manager. In this case its head coach - The person who recruited, trained and developed them. 

If he has done all he can he should take responsibility and get rid of the player. 

What is thinking for themselves? 

If it refers to problem solving. Problem solving in football can be improved by simplicity and concentrating on task v tasks. This improves confidence, understanding - Confident players are more likely to problem solve.

Consider the point made in this post.

Nibor is posting about repetition. Mr Johnson has used seven formations this season. Training will be less repetitious it can affect confidence and relationships on the pitch will almost certainly lack understanding they would v less change. 

Interesting response, thanks. So to take an example, where I am a full back who is having a difficult time against my direct opponent. I can:

1. Do nothing.

2. Ask the Coach what to do.

3. Recognise the problem and ask a teammate to provide some support in front of me, adjust my own starting position or whatever.

The latter for me would be thinking for myself, problem solving as you say. If I can't do that I probably should be looking for another job.

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16 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Mr Johnson has been in the role for seasons. He has had time to recruit players who can take responsibility. 

A team is a reflection of its Manager. His ideas. His vision. If players cannot follow those ideas and vision it is the Managers responsibility to ensure they do and alter their mindset.

 

Correct..his players coached by him.

..look in the mirror & try simplifying things...

Edited by Robert the bruce
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12 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I certainly don’t profess to have any great insight into coaching tactics, but I do feel that many of the most successful teams have a structure and a style, so that when players move up from academy, to U23’s/reserves and then onto first team, they already know their role, the way the team will play.

The very top teams seem to have this structure, but also players with the ability to react to changes to it, I’m not sure at our level they have that level of ability, so constant chopping and changing is detrimental and is reflected in the confused and disjointed performances we are witnessing.

You clearly do have an understanding. The highlighted is a logical outcome of change. 

A norm to improve can be.  The game is depending on you look at it three elements attack, defend, set pieces or five including transitions to defend and attack. Having one governing approach to those elements cuts down on complexity and should lead to greater understanding and players with the ability to problem solve, think for themselves .. The top level teams do not change as much as Bristol City do, there maybe the odd exception, but its hard to think of any in the EPL who have used seven formations this season and go through the seasonal change of BCFC

 

12 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Interesting response, thanks. So to take an example, where I am a full back who is having a difficult time against my direct opponent. I can:

1. Do nothing.

2. Ask the Coach what to do.

3. Recognise the problem and ask a teammate to provide some support in front of me, adjust my own starting position or whatever.

The latter for me would be thinking for myself, problem solving as you say. If I can't do that I probably should be looking for another job.

The latter. That response would relate to the coaches training and the teams shape and collective defending - What is the challenge and what are our responses. Those responses are consistently integrated into training in an effort to internalise them, leading to faster decision making from players recognising patterns, ques and triggers. 

There can be a multitude of reasons why players do not meet expectations beyond its the players fault.  A obvious question is it is just one player or players. If it is multiple players who are not getting it? Probably the coach should look at himself and what he is doing, or is that a definitely look closer to home!

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19 hours ago, Lew-T said:

In fairness it wasn’t as bad as I thought after hearing it a second time.

But he said along the lines that 6 or 7 players came out second half and showed guts. Then at the end he said a couple of them didn’t believe in themselves enough.

Just don’t think it’s necessary.

And that's probably because you wouldn't react positively to it. 

But everyone is different, and LJ has got decent reactions from most of the squad and clearly tailors his approach depending on their personalities. 

Some need to "prove the manager wrong" to get the best out of themselves. Some need an arm around them.

Trouble is, we don't have a clue who any of these players are as people. Lee and the coaching team do. I'll trust their judgement rather than judging blindly or calling it "Negging" & "insidious" like the OSIB boys did. 

 

 

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23 hours ago, La Plage said:

Ah I completely understand where we are going wrong, the players don’t coach themselves well enough during the games.

Well, each to his own, but I understand implicitly what LJ means by that remark.

When you see a young fullback like Dasilva being overrun by having two players running at him with other senior players just watching it unfold, its clear that either those players have absolutely no interest in helping out their team mate or have no understanding of the game. Both of which are unacceptable.

 

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Just to add to this, at one break in the game LJ called all the players over to him and had what looked like a very animated chat with them and at one point pointed to the left back position. It was obvious he knew where it was going wrong, but it made no difference as the players just carried on doing what they were doing previously.

 

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20 hours ago, IAmNick said:

If the boss has specifically picked every employee over a four year period, and then also specifically picked the 11 people to carry out his instructions on the day (presumably the ones who he thinks will carry out his instructions most effectively) then I would say primarily his, personally.

Either he has picked wrong people to do the job, or given the right people the wrong instructions that they can't carry out. I suppose the employees could just be completely incapable of doing so - but we know that's not true.

But if you go to a restaurant and the head chef, pot washer and waitress have all phoned in sick, do you expect it to be as good as it possibly can be..? 

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12 hours ago, Alan Dicks said:

Good manager in that respect but only average at best at coaching on the pitch, how many times do we see City play where the team looks like they've never played together before?

Balance that with teams that seem to know what to do as a unit and stick to it.

On paper Leeds man for man are really no better than what we have here, difference is they have a top coach who can orchestrate them brilliantly despite the fact they have a weak frontline.

Yet our “average at best” head coach and their “top coach who orchestrates them brilliantly” have both gained exactly the same number of points against the rest of the division, so far..? 

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