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Match Report: City turn up late to their own party


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On 16/02/2020 at 11:02, Spud55 said:

So he didn't get absolutely schooled by Costa yesterday then? A player even Leeds fans think isn't good enough? Defensively he is poor, he's young so has time to improve, but if you can explain to me how yesterday was acceptable from a defensive point of view then I will happily have a discussion, however judging by your reply you seem to just be a *****. 

Don't know what game you were watching, from what i seen he did well on Saturday. But i suppose it's all about opinions. Some on here rate O'Dowda and others were calling Fammy a donkey only a couple of months ago?

Anyway, why on earth would i want a discussion with you, you keyboard pussy!

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24 minutes ago, marksy said:

Don't know what game you were watching, from what i seen he did well on Saturday. But i suppose it's all about opinions. Some on here rate O'Dowda and others were calling Fammy a donkey only a couple of months ago?

Anyway, why on earth would i want a discussion with you, you keyboard pussy!

Aww did someone say something you don't agree with, it's ok snowflake. I Shall stick you on ignore and be done with it. 

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On 16/02/2020 at 20:10, bcfc01 said:

I agree with that.

Williams had a very good game as did Baker.

Whilst Dasilva's positioning is suspect (something I think he will get right in time) he had no support at all from senior players who should have seen he had two runners at him all the first half. He did well really.

Midfield ? What midfield ?

I'll excuse 18 year old Massengo as he kept going and didn't hide at all despite having a poor game by his standards, but the others were crap and, as LJ correctly said, gutless.

 

Midfield ? What midfield ?   This has been our problem for how many seasons now, most supporters have seen this for the same amount of time, why haven't players of quality been signed to address this problem?  The money has been there, why, oh, why can't the powers that be see it as well. Could make the difference between getting promotion and just being an average Championship team.

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7 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Wasn’t at the game but based on what others have said about Massengo I’m very shocked you gave a high mark!

Imho the only one of our 4 starting midfielders who had anything like a decent game.  He massively helped a poor triumvirate of Baker, Dasilva and Paterson in the opening 30 minutes, probably to the detriment of helping Henriksen.  His interceptions, ball recoveries, etc were very high in number on Saturday trying to stem to tide.  Without him getting a grip (of sorts) in there it might’ve been worse.

It’s what Smith would get credit for, but it seems with Han-Noah it’s taken more for granted and everyone focuses analysis of him on the ball.  Don’t get me wrong he does need to improve on the ball.  It’s a bit chicken and egg though.  If he was asked to play as a true DM in say a 4141, like Smith, but with less responsibility for progressing attacks, I think he’d be able to show us more of what he can do.  But it’s a very responsible position for an 18 year old.  It’s not dissimilar to Morrell for Wales where Giggs gave him the DM role and told him to just do that....which he did with aplomb.

His early games in the 532/5212 predominantly alongside Brownhill, but importantly with Palmer, meant all he had to do was “get it” and “give it”.  Both Brownhill and more so Palmer had the adventurous mentality, even if Josh constrained himself to help Han-Noah settle in.

There was one occasion in the second half where he intercepted on the left half of the pitch and broke forward at pace.  Instead of one of our forwards (Pato and Wells I think) breaking into the free left channel (as Ayling was caught forward), both rang long and right, meaning the smart pass / easier pass wasn’t on....and the move broke down.  It’s little things like that means he’ll get the criticism, but I think there are mitigating circumstances.

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The bloke who does these reports expresses himself in a prosaic manner, but I thought (possibly wrongly) that you might be interested in it. Although he is critical of you he is also painfully aware, as are most of us, of our immense fallibility and over-achievement.

https://www.thesquareball.net/leeds-united/leeds-united-1-0-bristol-city-starting-again/?fbclid=IwAR12sFfT_K76wBrsEnHjvtHTizFX2AHPyFto4BRJ0htVWxM6ttaHheuXYaM

Elland Road never got its second goal on Saturday. Leeds United promised and promised, tormented and teased, but it was Barnsley who obliged. Even their score was held tantalisingly back from the list of results on the big screen, but the noise when their 3-0 win over Fulham was revealed was as loud as it would have been for any Leeds goal. It sounded like joy, excitement and relief, and an awful lot like belief.

The minutes after full-time were maybe the best of the day, which is saying something, because Leeds were brilliant against Bristol City. But the narrow margins Leeds play with in the Championship are hard to enjoy. It was afterwards, with the points won and the anxiety over, that we could revel in what had been done, and what had happened elsewhere.

Some fans had left, which is their choice, although I find it strange that Elland Road is both a holy site of pilgrimage the football club must never vacate, and a place to leave as quickly as possible because a quicker journey home outweighs the pleasure of being in our second home. But anyway, the stands were still full enough to cheer Luke Ayling and Kalvin Phillips on their march of honour around the pitch, the Scratching Shed goading Kalvin into taking over Pontus Jansson’s old fist-pumping celebration.

Leeds hadn’t won more than three points, hadn’t scored more than one goal, and the opposition wasn’t a significant scalp. But the celebrations were justified because of the boost from Barnsley, and our basic need, during recent weeks, to experience a moment like this. At full-time Marcelo Bielsa hugged Ezgjan Alioski, who he recently dropped from the team, and after all the strife and gloom it was good for everyone to hug it all out and start again.

The point of January was starting again. In the positive sense, Jean-Kévin Augustin and Ian Poveda arrived to reset the failures of Eddie Nketiah and Jack Clarke. In the negative sense, the gap to 3rd disappeared and, as Luke Ayling admitted after the defeat to Nottingham Forest, all the work up to that game no longer counted for anything in the league. Leeds had no choice but starting again. They had to scrap the season so far and concentrate on being one of the two best teams between this week and May.

Ayling looked and sounded distraught in that interview. In the two games he’s played since, he has been superb. So have his teammates, with one momentary exception at Brentford. It’s as if Leeds had forgotten the motivation that seeing the abyss at the end of last season gave them for this, and were being drawn towards it again like lemmings. They looked over the edge at Nottingham, and remembered, and that was enough.

Against Bristol City, Leeds played like a recent memory, of the first half at Arsenal in the FA Cup when for 45 exhilarating minutes we were Champions League contenders again. The crisp one-touch passing, the constant danger from the wings, the high press and the dominance of possession meant Bristol City were not competing but chasing. Possession stats get a hard time, but Leeds played 432 successful passes to Bristol’s 150. Only one team was playing football. The other wasn’t allowed.

And yes, all the familiar failings were present too, the final passes and the finishing. Scored on the quarter-hour, Ayling’s first half winner was Bielsa’s Leeds in miniature, it’s only fault against type that it was scored too soon. The ball was worked into the penalty area where it was kicked, blocked, hacked at, deflected, sliced, cleared, returned, rolled and whacked, as Leeds players poured forward with their hands in the air, thinking they could be the one to score, and Bristol players poured backward with their hands over their mouths, ready to vomit their nerves if the ball, the bloody football, didn’t just go away. Instead it went to Luke Ayling who forced it into his former club’s net.

In the time it took them to score that goal, Leeds had more chances to score a goal than many teams create in a match. While most teams create a chance and either take it or don’t, then wait a while and create another, Leeds United’s desire for winning the ball back immediately and trying again immediately makes Bielsa’s desire to ‘unbalance the opponent’ as vivid as slapstick. I’ve never seen a team take their corners so quickly, and I’ve never seen opposition so visibly stricken by lack of time to think.

There was more pinball and a shot against the bar from Stuart Dallas; Pat Bamford buried the rebound but was offside. He should have buried Helder Costa’s pull-back in the second half; somehow he let Daniel Bentley make a point blank save. Costa should have scored past Bentley himself; running onto a clever long pass from Liam Cooper, he got around the goalkeeper and saw the goal empty, until Bentley scrambled back to fill it again. I couldn’t count how many times Costa and Jackie Harrison had chances to cross or cut-back or shoot that didn’t work; one Harrison shot, from close range, hit the bar hard. Augustin came on and shot just wide. Maybe he’ll start scoring these sorts of chances, or maybe Leeds are going to do it to him, too.

Bristol’s best chance wasn’t given to them when the referee refused to award a penalty for handball against Luke Ayling. Their manager, Lee Johnson, literally hopped with madness and then, when his complaining was done in the post-match interviews, lamented that his players hadn’t shown their ‘USPs’. Their other chance came from Kiko Casilla’s standard attempt to make the game interesting and us angry by giving a pass away, and that was as dangerous as it got from City. Watching Bamford turn his marker on halfway, sprint towards goal, attempt a stepover and trip himself up was a perfect example of Bristol’s relegation to audience: United’s only enemy in these matches is themselves.

I hope we’re at peace with that now. We’ve been waiting all season for luck, or something, to change in front of goal, but with thirteen games left it feels a little late now. Leeds will carry on having countless beautiful chances but will score one scruffy goal. They’ll hurt faint hearts with their defending but keep a clean sheet. They’ll miss chances so easy you look at the replays frame-by-frame not in anger but wonder; and they’ll fall flat on their faces with such perfectly scripted slapstick timing that you have to laugh with them now, not at them.

I don’t quite know how we ended up stuck with such a bunch of goofballs leading our promotion attempt, or how they got to be so good at football when sometimes they can hardly stand up straight, but I’ll take the whole gang of them over the soul-free eeriness awaiting in the Premier League. And I’ll forever be grateful if the loons actually pull promotion off, and do it like this, too.

Which they just might. While Elland Road was anxious about letting Bristol steal something, and was denied its second cheer until Barnsley provided, there was never the panic that has gripped other games this season. It felt appropriate that the game ended as Kalvin Phillips held off Ashley Williams and held onto the ball, and held onto our hopes, with so much strength, skill and determination that Williams’ only option was to foul him. Phillips was peerless in this match, his positioning and anticipation getting to Bristol’s every chance to cross halfway before they did. He was stronger, faster and wiser than any Bristol player, and so were the white shirts around him.

That gulf in class between Leeds and the middle ranks of this division, that we hear about from their overawed fans and reporters almost every week without always seeing it ourselves, might never, for whatever reason, manifest in the huge margins of victory they should. But instead of big scorelines Leeds have big spleens, the deep commitment and strong desire they’ve shown this week, after Nottingham, by starting again. That counts for a lot. ◉

 

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Imho the only one of our 4 starting midfielders who had anything like a decent game.  He massively helped a poor triumvirate of Baker, Dasilva and Paterson in the opening 30 minutes, probably to the detriment of helping Henriksen.  His interceptions, ball recoveries, etc were very high in number on Saturday trying to stem to tide.  Without him getting a grip (of sorts) in there it might’ve been worse.

It’s what Smith would get credit for, but it seems with Han-Noah it’s taken more for granted and everyone focuses analysis of him on the ball.  Don’t get me wrong he does need to improve on the ball.  It’s a bit chicken and egg though.  If he was asked to play as a true DM in say a 4141, like Smith, but with less responsibility for progressing attacks, I think he’d be able to show us more of what he can do.  But it’s a very responsible position for an 18 year old.  It’s not dissimilar to Morrell for Wales where Giggs gave him the DM role and told him to just do that....which he did with aplomb.

His early games in the 532/5212 predominantly alongside Brownhill, but importantly with Palmer, meant all he had to do was “get it” and “give it”.  Both Brownhill and more so Palmer had the adventurous mentality, even if Josh constrained himself to help Han-Noah settle in.

There was one occasion in the second half where he intercepted on the left half of the pitch and broke forward at pace.  Instead of one of our forwards (Pato and Wells I think) breaking into the free left channel (as Ayling was caught forward), both rang long and right, meaning the smart pass / easier pass wasn’t on....and the move broke down.  It’s little things like that means he’ll get the criticism, but I think there are mitigating circumstances.

Your last paragraph rings true so many times when we play Dave.

The amount of times our forwards or offensive midfielders run into the wrong areas to receive a pass is astounding...it really is something I've noticed. So much so, that it's an unnatural movement and something that doesn't make sense.

Something that's crossed my mind, is that players are told to penetrate certain areas of the pitch..without taking into consideration whether they can receive the ball or not.

There are natural shapes and angles that occur during a game. If an opponent goes into a defensive position, you have to create an angle to receive to negate it.

I'm wondering whether players are running into areas they are told to, regardless of whether they can receive the pass or not. The staticians will tick the box for them and no one can argue with them for not going there.

It really is that noticeable.

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9 minutes ago, SR1 said:

The bloke who does these reports expresses himself in a prosaic manner, but I thought (possibly wrongly) that you might be interested in it. Although he is critical of you he is also painfully aware, as are most of us, of our immense fallibility and over-achievement.

https://www.thesquareball.net/leeds-united/leeds-united-1-0-bristol-city-starting-again/?fbclid=IwAR12sFfT_K76wBrsEnHjvtHTizFX2AHPyFto4BRJ0htVWxM6ttaHheuXYaM

Elland Road never got its second goal on Saturday. Leeds United promised and promised, tormented and teased, but it was Barnsley who obliged. Even their score was held tantalisingly back from the list of results on the big screen, but the noise when their 3-0 win over Fulham was revealed was as loud as it would have been for any Leeds goal. It sounded like joy, excitement and relief, and an awful lot like belief.

The minutes after full-time were maybe the best of the day, which is saying something, because Leeds were brilliant against Bristol City. But the narrow margins Leeds play with in the Championship are hard to enjoy. It was afterwards, with the points won and the anxiety over, that we could revel in what had been done, and what had happened elsewhere.

Some fans had left, which is their choice, although I find it strange that Elland Road is both a holy site of pilgrimage the football club must never vacate, and a place to leave as quickly as possible because a quicker journey home outweighs the pleasure of being in our second home. But anyway, the stands were still full enough to cheer Luke Ayling and Kalvin Phillips on their march of honour around the pitch, the Scratching Shed goading Kalvin into taking over Pontus Jansson’s old fist-pumping celebration.

Leeds hadn’t won more than three points, hadn’t scored more than one goal, and the opposition wasn’t a significant scalp. But the celebrations were justified because of the boost from Barnsley, and our basic need, during recent weeks, to experience a moment like this. At full-time Marcelo Bielsa hugged Ezgjan Alioski, who he recently dropped from the team, and after all the strife and gloom it was good for everyone to hug it all out and start again.

The point of January was starting again. In the positive sense, Jean-Kévin Augustin and Ian Poveda arrived to reset the failures of Eddie Nketiah and Jack Clarke. In the negative sense, the gap to 3rd disappeared and, as Luke Ayling admitted after the defeat to Nottingham Forest, all the work up to that game no longer counted for anything in the league. Leeds had no choice but starting again. They had to scrap the season so far and concentrate on being one of the two best teams between this week and May.

Ayling looked and sounded distraught in that interview. In the two games he’s played since, he has been superb. So have his teammates, with one momentary exception at Brentford. It’s as if Leeds had forgotten the motivation that seeing the abyss at the end of last season gave them for this, and were being drawn towards it again like lemmings. They looked over the edge at Nottingham, and remembered, and that was enough.

Against Bristol City, Leeds played like a recent memory, of the first half at Arsenal in the FA Cup when for 45 exhilarating minutes we were Champions League contenders again. The crisp one-touch passing, the constant danger from the wings, the high press and the dominance of possession meant Bristol City were not competing but chasing. Possession stats get a hard time, but Leeds played 432 successful passes to Bristol’s 150. Only one team was playing football. The other wasn’t allowed.

And yes, all the familiar failings were present too, the final passes and the finishing. Scored on the quarter-hour, Ayling’s first half winner was Bielsa’s Leeds in miniature, it’s only fault against type that it was scored too soon. The ball was worked into the penalty area where it was kicked, blocked, hacked at, deflected, sliced, cleared, returned, rolled and whacked, as Leeds players poured forward with their hands in the air, thinking they could be the one to score, and Bristol players poured backward with their hands over their mouths, ready to vomit their nerves if the ball, the bloody football, didn’t just go away. Instead it went to Luke Ayling who forced it into his former club’s net.

In the time it took them to score that goal, Leeds had more chances to score a goal than many teams create in a match. While most teams create a chance and either take it or don’t, then wait a while and create another, Leeds United’s desire for winning the ball back immediately and trying again immediately makes Bielsa’s desire to ‘unbalance the opponent’ as vivid as slapstick. I’ve never seen a team take their corners so quickly, and I’ve never seen opposition so visibly stricken by lack of time to think.

There was more pinball and a shot against the bar from Stuart Dallas; Pat Bamford buried the rebound but was offside. He should have buried Helder Costa’s pull-back in the second half; somehow he let Daniel Bentley make a point blank save. Costa should have scored past Bentley himself; running onto a clever long pass from Liam Cooper, he got around the goalkeeper and saw the goal empty, until Bentley scrambled back to fill it again. I couldn’t count how many times Costa and Jackie Harrison had chances to cross or cut-back or shoot that didn’t work; one Harrison shot, from close range, hit the bar hard. Augustin came on and shot just wide. Maybe he’ll start scoring these sorts of chances, or maybe Leeds are going to do it to him, too.

Bristol’s best chance wasn’t given to them when the referee refused to award a penalty for handball against Luke Ayling. Their manager, Lee Johnson, literally hopped with madness and then, when his complaining was done in the post-match interviews, lamented that his players hadn’t shown their ‘USPs’. Their other chance came from Kiko Casilla’s standard attempt to make the game interesting and us angry by giving a pass away, and that was as dangerous as it got from City. Watching Bamford turn his marker on halfway, sprint towards goal, attempt a stepover and trip himself up was a perfect example of Bristol’s relegation to audience: United’s only enemy in these matches is themselves.

I hope we’re at peace with that now. We’ve been waiting all season for luck, or something, to change in front of goal, but with thirteen games left it feels a little late now. Leeds will carry on having countless beautiful chances but will score one scruffy goal. They’ll hurt faint hearts with their defending but keep a clean sheet. They’ll miss chances so easy you look at the replays frame-by-frame not in anger but wonder; and they’ll fall flat on their faces with such perfectly scripted slapstick timing that you have to laugh with them now, not at them.

I don’t quite know how we ended up stuck with such a bunch of goofballs leading our promotion attempt, or how they got to be so good at football when sometimes they can hardly stand up straight, but I’ll take the whole gang of them over the soul-free eeriness awaiting in the Premier League. And I’ll forever be grateful if the loons actually pull promotion off, and do it like this, too.

Which they just might. While Elland Road was anxious about letting Bristol steal something, and was denied its second cheer until Barnsley provided, there was never the panic that has gripped other games this season. It felt appropriate that the game ended as Kalvin Phillips held off Ashley Williams and held onto the ball, and held onto our hopes, with so much strength, skill and determination that Williams’ only option was to foul him. Phillips was peerless in this match, his positioning and anticipation getting to Bristol’s every chance to cross halfway before they did. He was stronger, faster and wiser than any Bristol player, and so were the white shirts around him.

That gulf in class between Leeds and the middle ranks of this division, that we hear about from their overawed fans and reporters almost every week without always seeing it ourselves, might never, for whatever reason, manifest in the huge margins of victory they should. But instead of big scorelines Leeds have big spleens, the deep commitment and strong desire they’ve shown this week, after Nottingham, by starting again. That counts for a lot. ◉

 

"Some fans had left" ... before the final whistle? At Elland Road?

Frankly, I - we - are  .......

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8 minutes ago, spudski said:

Your last paragraph rings true so many times when we play Dave.

The amount of times our forwards or offensive midfielders run into the wrong areas to receive a pass is astounding...it really is something I've noticed. So much so, that it's an unnatural movement and something that doesn't make sense.

Something that's crossed my mind, is that players are told to penetrate certain areas of the pitch..without taking into consideration whether they can receive the ball or not.

There are natural shapes and angles that occur during a game. If an opponent goes into a defensive position, you have to create an angle to receive to negate it.

I'm wondering whether players are running into areas they are told to, regardless of whether they can receive the pass or not. The staticians will tick the box for them and no one can argue with them for not going there.

It really is that noticeable.

I find that we consistently do not seem to want to attack the space in behind the full backs, there were plenty of occasions against Derby where both Eliasson and Pato had tons of space to attack leaving a simple pass over the top to exploit, the passes don't even have to come off to be effective as you stretch the full backs by just making the runs from time to time, yet inexplicably to me they realise where they are and just stop. 

And the forwards are the same they often don't run the channels and stretch the defence instead stopping and playing in front of the opposition. I was generally happy to put this down to poor movement on our part, but it's so many different players that do it it almost makes me think it has to be under instruction for some reason. 

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9 minutes ago, spudski said:

Your last paragraph rings true so many times when we play Dave.

The amount of times our forwards or offensive midfielders run into the wrong areas to receive a pass is astounding...it really is something I've noticed. So much so, that it's an unnatural movement and something that doesn't make sense.

Something that's crossed my mind, is that players are told to penetrate certain areas of the pitch..without taking into consideration whether they can receive the ball or not.

There are natural shapes and angles that occur during a game. If an opponent goes into a defensive position, you have to create an angle to receive to negate it.

I'm wondering whether players are running into areas they are told to, regardless of whether they can receive the pass or not. The staticians will tick the box for them and no one can argue with them for not going there.

It really is that noticeable.

 

The second video shows how a right winger can come off the line, create space for themselves and their teammate.  Look how patient Ayling is (41secs), then the RW (51secs) comes inside.

In our set up its like Eliasson is obstructed to hug the touchline, 20 yards ahead of the ball, irrespective of marker, angles etc.  He might get the ball and skip inside off his marker with the ball, but he rarely moves away from the touchline without the ball.  We feel massively rigid.

I doubt Monaco youth and adult teams have been set up to play so rigidly.

 

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

The second video shows how a right winger can come off the line, create space for themselves and their teammate.  Look how patient Ayling is (41secs), then the RW (51secs) comes inside.

In our set up its like Eliasson is obstructed to hug the touchline, 20 yards ahead of the ball, irrespective of marker, angles etc.  He might get the ball and skip inside off his marker with the ball, but he rarely moves away from the touchline without the ball.  We feel massively rigid.

I doubt Monaco youth and adult teams have been set up to play so rigidly.

 

It's not just the movement its the way they quickly switch play and then start moving off that, in the first video when Leeds switch the play it immediately starts to pull the WBA side out of shape, we might move the ball in the same way, but it will take us 2 maybe 3 passes to switch the play, by which time the opposition have shifted and their shape is retained. 

Not only do we not move effectively we do not move the ball around quick enough. 

To be brutally fair it is a massive testament to Fam and Wiemann in particular that they are as effective up front as they are considering how ponderous we are to move the ball around in an attacking sense. 

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20 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

I find that we consistently do not seem to want to attack the space in behind the full backs, there were plenty of occasions against Derby where both Eliasson and Pato had tons of space to attack leaving a simple pass over the top to exploit, the passes don't even have to come off to be effective as you stretch the full backs by just making the runs from time to time, yet inexplicably to me they realise where they are and just stop. 

And the forwards are the same they often don't run the channels and stretch the defence instead stopping and playing in front of the opposition. I was generally happy to put this down to poor movement on our part, but it's so many different players that do it it almost makes me think it has to be under instruction for some reason. 

Eliasson did it one and I think Williams clipped a ball it through to him....I thought he’d cracked it.  Alas, not!!

What you’ve written there forms part of my tactical philosophy - if I were ever to be a manager.

BEAEF076-A0A8-474A-80AB-01B61553442F.jpeg.feca1a89a911e779a2fa4d31570e52b8.jpeg

pic above....static movement (oxymoron), no easy pass - last season Pack on the ball

E70CD47A-A9F5-4013-BFE5-0D473D2EC42A.jpeg.1e47ab9717ba5499504f4fc9f1a3e361.jpeg

Pic 2 - a simple but clever run from Weimann, dragging CB and LB with him because he runs where he can’t be passed on properly by the defender (Hogan fantastic at this), creating space for Hunt to either get the pass or get a ball round the corner from Weimann.

Think i drew these after Preston (h) in 18/19.

We don’t see enough movement combinations.  Why is that?

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30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

The second video shows how a right winger can come off the line, create space for themselves and their teammate.  Look how patient Ayling is (41secs), then the RW (51secs) comes inside.

In our set up its like Eliasson is obstructed to hug the touchline, 20 yards ahead of the ball, irrespective of marker, angles etc.  He might get the ball and skip inside off his marker with the ball, but he rarely moves away from the touchline without the ball.  We feel massively rigid.

I doubt Monaco youth and adult teams have been set up to play so rigidly.

 

I've been saying the same things for months mate. We hug the touchline, but rarely come inside.

In doing so, we make it so easy to defend against. Come inside a little and you get 360 degrees of movement. Hug the touchline and you automatically make it 180 degrees. So, so easy to defend.

As Spud55 has also noticed...it makes us massively rigid.

Football is fluid and has natural movement. It's like water going around rocks, it finds its route by natural angles. You can't go through rocks...you have to go around them or over them depending on space and speed.

Our movement, or lack of it, is often unnatural and looks often like a player has been told to be in certain areas as that's what the stats show as most effective, but not taking into consideration the opposition stopping it. You have to move accordingly to what's happening in front of you. 

I tear my hair out at space and angles not occupied by our players when natural opportunity arises.

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17 minutes ago, spudski said:

I've been saying the same things for months mate. We hug the touchline, but rarely come inside.

In doing so, we make it so easy to defend against. Come inside a little and you get 360 degrees of movement. Hug the touchline and you automatically make it 180 degrees. So, so easy to defend.

As Spud55 has also noticed...it makes us massively rigid.

Football is fluid and has natural movement. It's like water going around rocks, it finds its route by natural angles. You can't go through rocks...you have to go around them or over them depending on space and speed.

Our movement, or lack of it, is often unnatural and looks often like a player has been told to be in certain areas as that's what the stats show as most effective, but not taking into consideration the opposition stopping it. You have to move accordingly to what's happening in front of you. 

I tear my hair out at space and angles not occupied by our players when natural opportunity arises.

....and then people say we are ponderous on the ball.  Benkovic stepping into midfield last Wednesday helped drag Derby’s midfield out of shape that did give us a bit of fluidity.  The one long ball he hit over the top to Hunt kept Max Lowe and Tom Lawrence honest, which in turn created space elsewhere.  It’s a simpler game when our players move, especially when it’s intelligent enough to take account of the position of the ball on the pitch, the opposition and teammate(s) position.

I haven’t done any coaching badges, but played for teams with or coached by enough ex-pros to understand patterns of play and angles.

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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

....and then people say we are ponderous on the ball.  Benkovic stepping into midfield last Wednesday helped drag Derby’s midfield out of shape that did give us a bit of fluidity.  The one long ball he hit over the top to Hunt kept Max Lowe and Tom Lawrence honest, which in turn created space elsewhere.  It’s a simpler game when our players move, especially when it’s intelligent enough to take account of the position of the ball on the pitch, the opposition and teammate(s) position.

I haven’t done any coaching badges, but played for teams with or coached by enough ex-pros to understand patterns of play and angles.

Doesn't it also depend who you are playing? Derby are an appalling side with a couple of decent players, but any top six side should be able to out smart them.

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

....and then people say we are ponderous on the ball.  Benkovic stepping into midfield last Wednesday helped drag Derby’s midfield out of shape that did give us a bit of fluidity.  The one long ball he hit over the top to Hunt kept Max Lowe and Tom Lawrence honest, which in turn created space elsewhere.  It’s a simpler game when our players move, especially when it’s intelligent enough to take account of the position of the ball on the pitch, the opposition and teammate(s) position.

I haven’t done any coaching badges, but played for teams with or coached by enough ex-pros to understand patterns of play and angles.

Totally agree Dave.

The thing is, watching Leeds or Brentford's movement isn't Rocket Science. All of it is natural. Based on angles and overloads. They play very simple football, but drilled and done well. All of it is natural.

All of our forward movement looks unnatural. I see a player in midfield with the ball, then watch the player in front of him move into the one spot he can't get the ball too. It's getting ridiculous. I've sat there thinking...is this instructed, or a player hiding not to receive, because it's so unnatural.

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Only 11 teams have outsmarted then this season? ?

They're still pretty appalling with, as I said, a couple of players that can lift them every now and then. Only 12 teams (or more to the point they've lost 12 games, not sure if there's a double or two in there) have beaten Middlesbrough and they're six points off the bottom three.

 

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3 minutes ago, spudski said:

Totally agree Dave.

The thing is, watching Leeds or Brentford's movement isn't Rocket Science. All of it is natural. Based on angles and overloads. They play very simple football, but drilled and done well. All of it is natural.

All of our forward movement looks unnatural. I see a player in midfield with the ball, then watch the player in front of him move into the one spot he can't get the ball too. It's getting ridiculous. I've sat there thinking...is this instructed, or a player hiding not to receive, because it's so unnatural.

Why would the coaching staff tell the players to play like that? Is there a specific reason? Or like you said, are the players hiding for some reason?

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6 minutes ago, spudski said:

Totally agree Dave.

The thing is, watching Leeds or Brentford's movement isn't Rocket Science. All of it is natural. Based on angles and overloads. They play very simple football, but drilled and done well. All of it is natural.

All of our forward movement looks unnatural. I see a player in midfield with the ball, then watch the player in front of him move into the one spot he can't get the ball too. It's getting ridiculous. I've sat there thinking...is this instructed, or a player hiding not to receive, because it's so unnatural.

Every successful team relies on simplicity, being well drilled and incredibly fit. This 'simple' movement actually relies on a load of things coming together, but most of all the fitness, both physical, early on in the season, and mental later on. That's where we fell down last season and may yet fall down this.

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11 minutes ago, SR1 said:

They're still pretty appalling with, as I said, a couple of players that can lift them every now and then. Only 12 teams (or more to the point they've lost 12 games, not sure if there's a double or two in there) have beaten Middlesbrough and they're six points off the bottom three.

 

The age old dilemma, a bunch of average players, who are better through sum of the parts, or a poorer bunch with a couple of super-stars.

I’m not convinced a Derby line-up including Waghorn, Rooney, Lawrence, Bogle, Clark and Wisdom, coupled with the effective target man in Martin, and youngsters like Lowe and the impressive Bird is appalling.  Hamer, old crisp packet hands, let’s not go there ?

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15 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Why would the coaching staff tell the players to play like that? Is there a specific reason? Or like you said, are the players hiding for some reason?

Well modern football Telus a lot on stats.

They look at positions on a pitch where the opposition are most vulnerable. They make game plans to attack their weaknesses. You can sometimes watch games where we or the opposition will target certain areas which are considered weak. Often the better option is elsewhere, but under instruction the team will endeavour to hit that spot.

It's a catch 22.

The players are given a game plan and try to carry it out. Often in doing this, they miss golden opportunities to deviate and find an alternative. The flair players will often do this...opportunist...or imo, doing what's natural and correct.

Imo, we have become rigid under game plan and the players look scared of deviating from it. Get it wrong with a deviance and you face the wrath of the coach?

Or take an option of hiding from receiving and you don't get the hairdryer.

This season has stood out to me...as a team under instruction, game plan, don't deviate. It's very shackled imo.

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1 minute ago, spudski said:

Well modern football Telus a lot on stats.

They look at positions on a pitch where the opposition are most vulnerable. They make game plans to attack their weaknesses. You can sometimes watch games where we or the opposition will target certain areas which are considered weak. Often the better option is elsewhere, but under instruction the team will endeavour to hit that spot.

It's a catch 22.

The players are given a game plan and try to carry it out. Often in doing this, they miss golden opportunities to deviate and find an alternative. The flair players will often do this...opportunist...or imo, doing what's natural and correct.

Imo, we have become rigid under game plan and the players look scared of deviating from it. Get it wrong with a deviance and you face the wrath of the coach?

Or take an option of hiding from receiving and you don't get the hairdryer.

This season has stood out to me...as a team under instruction, game plan, don't deviate. It's very shackled imo.

yes, Jack Hunt has commented on it at least twice this season.

Even last week (I think it was Brum) Korey was gesturing to the players to move (he was on his own in the centre of the pitch and there was a bank of players in front of him), nobody would move to receive the ball. I think he gave up and passed it back to AW or whoever was behind him. 

Often in other games, JD would run down the wing with the ball and stop dead (similar to how Joe Bryan used to) it seemed like an instruction from staff, it served no purpose, unless he was expecting someone to overlap and they didn't because they had been instructed to do something else. Similar with Matty Taylor, he would try and create space and others wouldn't do it.

I get all the business with stats etc., but how the hell can you play a game like that? It's probably why we look so disjointed and so devoid of ideas. 

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15 minutes ago, spudski said:

Well modern football Telus a lot on stats.

They look at positions on a pitch where the opposition are most vulnerable. They make game plans to attack their weaknesses. You can sometimes watch games where we or the opposition will target certain areas which are considered weak. Often the better option is elsewhere, but under instruction the team will endeavour to hit that spot.

It's a catch 22.

The players are given a game plan and try to carry it out. Often in doing this, they miss golden opportunities to deviate and find an alternative. The flair players will often do this...opportunist...or imo, doing what's natural and correct.

Imo, we have become rigid under game plan and the players look scared of deviating from it. Get it wrong with a deviance and you face the wrath of the coach?

Or take an option of hiding from receiving and you don't get the hairdryer.

This season has stood out to me...as a team under instruction, game plan, don't deviate. It's very shackled imo.

I’m sure I’m generalising, but two games standout for me this season in terms of fluidity of movement:

Brum (a)

Derby (a)

I’m not saying there haven’t been others but these stood out.

Versus Brum, Nagy and Brownhill, interchanging, shifting position that then freed Palmer. Afobe and Weimann, one spinning his marker, the other getting into the box.

Versus Derby, Massengo alongside Brownhill this time, Hunt expansive, Palmer freeing the front two, little pop-offs from Afobe, giving the midfield confidence to break their lines.

It wasn’t perfect, but so different to what we are seeing now.

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17 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

yes, Jack Hunt has commented on it at least twice this season.

Even last week (I think it was Brum) Korey was gesturing to the players to move (he was on his own in the centre of the pitch and there was a bank of players in front of him), nobody would move to receive the ball. I think he gave up and passed it back to AW or whoever was behind him. 

Often in other games, JD would run down the wing with the ball and stop dead (similar to how Joe Bryan used to) it seemed like an instruction from staff, it served no purpose, unless he was expecting someone to overlap and they didn't because they had been instructed to do something else. Similar with Matty Taylor, he would try and create space and others wouldn't do it.

I get all the business with stats etc., but how the hell can you play a game like that? It's probably why we look so disjointed and so devoid of ideas. 

Matty Taylor was the best player we had for creating angles and space up front. He came for the ball often. Others weren't on his wavelength...or kept to instruction. He provided many opportunities to break through the lines.

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m sure I’m generalising, but two games standout for me this season in terms of fluidity of movement:

Brum (a)

Derby (a)

I’m not saying there haven’t been others but these stood out.

Versus Brum, Nagy and Brownhill, interchanging, shifting position that then freed Palmer. Afobe and Weimann, one spinning his marker, the other getting into the box.

Versus Derby, Massengo alongside Brownhill this time, Hunt expansive, Palmer freeing the front two, little pop-offs from Afobe, giving the midfield confidence to break their lines.

It wasn’t perfect, but so different to what we are seeing now.

Early Nagy and Massengo showed greater natural movement than what they have now. Both look shackled from their natural gifted abilities. The medium between flair and structure has gone too far with too many of our players imo... they've become robotic.

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8 hours ago, spudski said:

Matty Taylor was the best player we had for creating angles and space up front. He came for the ball often. Others weren't on his wavelength...or kept to instruction. He provided many opportunities to break through the lines.

Early Nagy and Massengo showed greater natural movement than what they have now. Both look shackled from their natural gifted abilities. The medium between flair and structure has gone too far with too many of our players imo... they've become robotic.

I think Nagy has been especially neutered, in games earlier in the season very few passes he made were pointless, even a simple 5 yard pass back to a centre back was nearly always followed by a spin and break into the space created by the opposition midfielder starting to close him down, more recently he does what Brownhill and Pack did and give it to the centre back and then just stand there waiting for the return ball, this time however by the time it's recieved he has a midfielder / forward up his arse. 

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33 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

I think Nagy has been especially neutered, in games earlier in the season very few passes he made were pointless, even a simple 5 yard pass back to a centre back was nearly always followed by a spin and break into the space created by the opposition midfielder starting to close him down, more recently he does what Brownhill and Pack did and give it to the centre back and then just stand there waiting for the return ball, this time however by the time it's recieved he has a midfielder / forward up his arse. 

I was going to mention Nagy too, Henriksen was intercepting balls in midfield last week, I thought his movement was good, and his thinking. Is he going to go the same way too?

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