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Can players be coached into changing their game at City?


southvillekiddy

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In another thread I raised this question in relation to Kasey Palmer and didn't get a satisfactory answer.

So I say again is it the case : a player like KP, described on here as "luxury, surplus, lazy, crowd-pleasing substitute etc" cannot be coached into changing their game at our football Club eg. in working harder in defence?

If so does this mean :

1. that unlike other professions the idea of personal development/improvement/INSET to enhance a career  is inapplicable in football in many cases?

2. The best players are the ones that are capable of improvement through changing their game

3. It takes exceptional coaching to change a player to make them a better all round performer

 

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3 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

In another thread I raised this question in relation to Kasey Palmer and didn't get a satisfactory answer.

So I say again is it the case : a player like KP, described on here as "luxury, surplus, lazy, crowd-pleasing substitute etc" cannot be coached into changing their game at our football Club eg. in working harder in defence?

If so does this mean :

1. that unlike other professions the idea of personal development/improvement/INSET to enhance a career  is inapplicable in football in many cases?

2. The best players are the ones that are capable of improvement through changing their game

3. It takes exceptional coaching to change a player to make them a better all round performer

 

Of course they can. Bobby Reid is a perfect example and should end the discussion really. 

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12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Of course they can. Bobby Reid is a perfect example and should end the discussion really. 

If that is the case mate then why  hasn't  KP been coached in how to change his game so that he can get a regular start. Also I'm not sure that Bobby's case makes a suitable comparison. Bobby is not what I would describe as a flair player. A fantastic worker and skilled player yes. It was a change of position that showed us what he could do up front.

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11 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

If that is the case mate then why  hasn't  KP been coached in how to change his game so that he can get a regular start. Also I'm not sure that Bobby's case makes a suitable comparison. Bobby is not what I would describe as a flair player. A fantastic worker and skilled player yes. It was a change of position that showed us what he could do up front.

We don't know the ins and outs of the Palmer situation. It's unclear what the issue is whether he doesn't fit, isn't trying hard enough, isn't performing in training or anything.

Reid is a valid example when answering your overall question though which was "Can players be coached into changing their game at City?" - didn't realise they had to be a flair player. 

At the time Reid was 24 years old. A watershed age for players where usually when you'd either expect a player to be performing in the first team or you'd let them go. Lots of people thought he was too lightweight and hadn't progressed enough. Through tweaking his position, Johnson and the coaching team were able to take him into an excellent pressing forward who was integral to our good form in the first half of that season. That shows for me that players can be coached into changing their game at City.

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Players can be coached but it takes two things:

1) Players having the right mindset and desire to improve.

2) Players doing the right things to improve

I think with Kasey there are two alternative explanations to an attitude problem:

1) He knows he needs to improve and do things differently but hasn't yet found a way to do that.

2) The process of changing the game means he is over-thinking and curbing his natural instincts at the moment whilst he is learning what to do differently. I think it possible players can get worse for a while whilst learning to get better, if that makes sense. 

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Surely you buy the players with the attributes to fit into the system you employ.

Motd2 they were discussing Joelinton at Newcastle who previously played out wide as is now seen as a central striker which may explain why he hasn't scored since Noah built his Ark.

Alf Ramsey use to say he didn't want the best players but the best players to fit the system he played which is why Jack Charlton played whilst Jimmy Greaves didn't.

Just fit round pegs into round holes and concentrate on what they can do.

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20 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

We don't know the ins and outs of the Palmer situation. It's unclear what the issue is whether he doesn't fit, isn't trying hard enough, isn't performing in training or anything.

Reid is a valid example when answering your overall question though which was "Can players be coached into changing their game at City?" - didn't realise they had to be a flair player. 

At the time Reid was 24 years old. A watershed age for players where usually when you'd either expect a player to be performing in the first team or you'd let them go. Lots of people thought he was too lightweight and hadn't progressed enough. Through tweaking his position, Johnson and the coaching team were able to take him into an excellent pressing forward who was integral to our good form in the first half of that season. That shows for me that players can be coached into changing their game at City.

Okay. I accept that there was a change made in Bobby's game but I say again this was mainly positional. Let's get on to the much more difficult area of changing a player's motivation to make a change, as you are more than hinting this is a factor for Kasey. Isn't that also something that should be addressed through a different, possibly more subtle type of coaching? Otherwise it's going to be an almost complete waste of 4 million quid?

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39 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

In another thread I raised this question in relation to Kasey Palmer and didn't get a satisfactory answer.

So I say again is it the case : a player like KP, described on here as "luxury, surplus, lazy, crowd-pleasing substitute etc" cannot be coached into changing their game at our football Club eg. in working harder in defence?

If so does this mean :

1. that unlike other professions the idea of personal development/improvement/INSET to enhance a career  is inapplicable in football in many cases?

 

 

When you worked (you are retired?) was your employment tactical, technical, physical, psychological and social? Most of our workplaces do not reflect that sporting and highly competitive environment and its challenges. 

Footballers frequently can find themselves in environments they are not suited to. Improvement can be made but take the physical element of football. You can improve what god gave you but your athletic genetic potential will have a ceiling lower than other individuals. 

 

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2 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Okay. I accept that there was a change made in Bobby's game but I say again this was mainly positional. Let's get on to the much more difficult area of changing a player's motivation to make a change, as you are more than hinting this is a factor for Kasey. Isn't that also something that should be addressed through a different, possibly more subtle type of coaching?

I think 'how' he was coached and improved - whether that change came about via a positional change or not - is neither here nor there but shows that players can "be coached into changing their game at City". 

Going back to Palmer though, yes it'll be interesting to see what happens. Unfortunately because we don't know all the ins and outs it's hard for us to know what's really going on. 

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51 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Of course they can. Bobby Reid is a perfect example and should end the discussion really. 

Isn’t Lee Tomlin an even better example? 
Lazy, overweight, disruptive, out of the team. Now a regular starter, in good shape and regularly scoring.... for Cardiff. Something or someone has got through to him. 
He, Palmer and Reid all play in, basically, the same position - a position that doesn’t seem to exist in our current “style” of play. 

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15 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

When you worked (you are retired?) was your employment tactical, technical, physical, psychological and social? Most of our workplaces do not reflect that sporting and highly competitive environment and its challenges. 

Footballers frequently can find themselves in environments they are not suited to. Improvement can be made but take the physical element of football. You can improve what god gave you but your athletic genetic potential will have a ceiling lower than other individuals. 

 

Very interesting reply mate. As a retired inner-city teacher I can tell you that that profession places one in every kind of challenging situation you can imagine and is also competitive, as are most professions where you are fighting for survival, with your "clients" and superiors.

Your reply leads me to surmise that football clubs have a primitive approach to the issue of creating an environment where more "highly tuned" or individualist players can feel okay. Am I right in believing that such players are generally described as having poor attitude as a crude, catch-all diagnosis

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15 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Isn’t Lee Tomlin an even better example? 
Lazy, overweight, disruptive, out of the team. Now a regular starter, in good shape and regularly scoring.... for Cardiff. Something or someone has got through to him. 
He, Palmer and Reid all play in, basically, the same position - a position that doesn’t seem to exist in our current “style” of play. 

Remember when he played well and scored regularly for us?

It's not a good example due to the highs and lows.

Are we in another high revolving around a new contract or is it permanent? 

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36 minutes ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

Surely you buy the players with the attributes to fit into the system you employ.

or you recruit players for a system you want to play?  Palmer could’ve been the player LJ wanted to evolve his system?  I don’t know  

In my head I have a footballing philosophy, but if I was manager of City, I wouldn’t be able to employ it from day one  I might have to evolve it over time with the current players moving on and new ones coming in that fit it.

Back to Palmer, I think we saw some good signs from him in those early weeks, a goal, a few assists, looking like he was on the wavelength of our strikers, and the midfield on his top, giving him early ball. That has gone south for various reasons.

Motd2 they were discussing Joelinton at Newcastle who previously played out wide as is now seen as a central striker which may explain why he hasn't scored since Noah built his Ark.

Alf Ramsey use to say he didn't want the best players but the best players to fit the system he played which is why Jack Charlton played whilst Jimmy Greaves didn't.

Alf could set a system, then pick anyone he felt could play it.  In LJ’s defence he’s picking from one squad of players.

Just fit round pegs into round holes and concentrate on what they can do.

In golf, Nick Faldo, a top golfer already, realised his swing wouldn’t stand up to the pressures of winning big tournaments.  So he went away with David Leadbitter, re-modelled it, struggled whilst he did, and then came back stronger.

As it stands I don’t think we see LJ’s grand plan, and players like Palmer drift in and out.

 

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A player needs to be on board with the changes for a start. I mean of course they can, see here. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/feb/08/return-of-adel-taarabt-reinvented-himself-at-benfica-qpr

But remember, Just to get to first team football is bloody difficult.  You have to have absolute belief in your own attritubes as a player.  Even scouting at a young age, they are looking for what makes you special, As players move up the youth and professional ladder, their own motion that these are my strengths gets reinforced (in palmer's case, those strengths led to a valuation into the millions) 

When you also consider that sometimes the player doesn't need to change at all, sometimes he just needs to be used correctly. That may well be Simply finding a position on the pitch, or having the right players around him. (even pirlo needed people to make the right runs) 

Even taking just  those two factors into consideration, why would a player simply say, ok I'll change, if he disagrees or sees himself play worse as a result?

This is were you find a connection to business, its only successful if everyone is pulling in the same direction, understands what you are doing, why you are doing it, and sees positive results from it. 

 

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3 hours ago, Mendip City said:

Isn’t Lee Tomlin an even better example? 
Lazy, overweight, disruptive, out of the team. Now a regular starter, in good shape and regularly scoring.... for Cardiff. Something or someone has got through to him. 
He, Palmer and Reid all play in, basically, the same position - a position that doesn’t seem to exist in our current “style” of play. 

I think Tomlin deserves a pat on the back tbh. His form and fitness has improved a lot since he announced his mental health issues. Fair play to him

Like many fans nowadays, i follow City footballers on social media. Palmer has a very nice lifestyle and is clearly very comfortable (so would i be if i was earning 20 grand a week), but to me - he needs a rocket up his arse.

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4 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

Very interesting reply mate. As a retired inner-city teacher I can tell you that that profession places one in every kind of challenging situation you can imagine and is also competitive, as are most professions where you are fighting for survival, with your "clients" and superiors.

Your reply leads me to surmise that football clubs have a primitive approach to the issue of creating an environment where more "highly tuned" or individualist players can feel okay. Am I right in believing that such players are generally described as having poor attitude as a crude, catch-all diagnosis

I would have an educated guess that most teaching roles do not require high aerobic and anaerobic capacities. The requisite skills are different. My former role working for the NHS could be highly stressful and challenging but it was hardly comparable to football. 

Away from this one individual your opening post does not state what you want to improve. One change in Manager and a change in tactics can see a players key skills not being required.

The above can frequently not be down to attitude but simply pragmatism. The player can improve but not to the degree that will fulfil the team need.

I created a relatively simple scenario in my former post. An individuals athletic ability is set, there is a ceiling. What if the team needs individuals with higher physical ability?   

Similar can be done across elements of football. The bedrock of a players technical ability is formed before they become a adult. If you have not got a high technical ability by early teens .. A player will not develop that later.

Your a teacher. I will not have to tell you about differing learning styles. Football clubs are becoming quite holistic, technology has given coaches new capabilities and learning tools. How to teach, communicate, how to nurture is part of the learning and qualification of coaches … But its still a case of what do you want, what is it you want to develop, what is it you want to improve and pragmatism.

Improve yes .. But some players can't fit all the myriad of ways a Manager can approach a game of football. 

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