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The one thing I have never understood about LJ is his obsession with 442.

Quite clearly we were outnumbered in midfield. Yet we tried to pass it out the back all game even though we clearly looked like we'd lose it, which we so often did. Madness. Might as well go long in such a set up.

Wells is not going to be the striker we saw for Huddersfield and QPR when at his best for those 2 sides he played up top with 1 in behind. But for us today he was more or less making up for our lack of numbers in deeper areas. 

I'm not sure what LJ is seeing. We'd be better defensively with an extra midfielder in there and be able to pass the ball better as well.

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4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

The one thing I have never understood about LJ is his obsession with 442.

Quite clearly we were outnumbered in midfield. Yet we tried to pass it out the back all game even though we clearly looked like we'd lose it, which we so often did. Madness. Might as well go long in such a set up.

Wells is not going to be the striker we saw for Huddersfield and QPR when at his best for those 2 sides he played up top with 1 in behind. But for us today he was more or less making up for our lack of numbers in deeper areas. 

I'm not sure what LJ is seeing. We'd be better defensively with an extra midfielder in there and be able to pass the ball better as well.

It certainly wasn't the way after the Charlton shambles. We started playing more defensively and getting results. Fans were still complaining and he gave in to the pressure with predictable results.

No manager should ever do something just because fans demand it. Perhaps Mick McCarthy should take over? 🙂

 

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1 minute ago, chinapig said:

It certainly wasn't the way after the Charlton shambles. We started playing more defensively and getting results. Fans were still complaining and he gave in to the pressure with predictable results.

No manager should ever do something just because fans demand it. Perhaps Mick McCarthy should take over? 🙂

 

No I mean last 2 games. And in general in his time with us when he has so often gone Fam and Weimann which never worked. And now it's Diedhiou and Wells. 

To let better opposition have an extra man in midfield in the last 2 games is madness. 

Wells signing actually looks like it weakens us if we have to make ourselves light in midfield to accommodate him.

The 4141 solid look we had would probably have done ok last 2 games. Who know what results we would have got with a more solid set up. And a set up that can also at times really pass the ball like away at QPR first half.

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What I have never understood about LJ is his inability to see what’s in front of him.

We did not get the ball forward to strikers, who both played most of the game in our half desperate to win the ball and get it forward...WBA second was due to the frustrated Diehdou trying to bring the ball out himself and getting a beat. The bloke was so desperate to get us forward. The biggest cheers today were our forwards defensive efforts....What is there not to understand about that.

If we are going to play counter attacking football, and WBA pushing on to us made this one game we could at home, we have got to be able to pass (Nagy could not pass water) and run forward quickly......But nope not us. Not strong enough to win the second ball and no one quick enough to hit so when we did win it we passed it five ******* yards.\.

Tommy Rowe not being in that team (bench) is a joke. Elliason had and gave little...Desilva did ok but really Baker not starting when the stats are clear, the bloke from Leicester is ok but no better than Taylor Moore. 

Napkins Wells is class but we have to give him opportunities Leeds and WBA laughing their cocks off we can have such a good forward line and be so inept....

 

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2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

No I mean last 2 games. And in general in his time with us when he has so often gone Fam and Weimann which never worked. And now it's Diedhiou and Wells. 

To let better opposition have an extra man in midfield in the last 2 games is madness. 

Wells signing actually looks like it weakens us if we have to make ourselves light in midfield to accommodate him.

The 4141 solid look we had would probably have done ok last 2 games. Who know what results we would have got with a more solid set up. And a set up that can also at times really pass the ball like away at QPR first half.

A low block with 3 centre backs and playing on the break whether home or away is probably our best bet with the players we have imo. Similar to the approach Forest take for instance. But our fans will not tolerate it at home.

My biggest criticism of LJ is that he simply does not have a plan one way or the other but blows with the wind.

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1 minute ago, chinapig said:

A low block with 3 centre backs and playing on the break whether home or away is probably our best bet with the players we have imo. Similar to the approach Forest take for instance. But our fans will not tolerate it at home.

My biggest criticism of LJ is that he simply does not have a plan one way or the other but blows with the wind.

I think the fans would tolerate it if it works, especially when comparing it with performances like today!

For me it's either go 4231 with Wells or back to 4141 with Fam.

To play them both together maybe we would have to go 352. That may work, who knows. But I've always preferred Fam up top on his own.

Wells at his best seems to be up top on his own too. But with a creative player in behind. Paterson seems to be that obvious player.

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4-3-3 or a real 4-1-4-1. Please. Now.

You won't get the best out of Nagy, Massengo, the current version of Smith, when he returns Walsh and arguably even Pack when he was here. Maybe Brownhill when he was here too with a 4-4-2.

Paterson, Palmer or O'Dowda as one of those three also won't do the job, especially vs decent sides.

Put it this way as soon as I saw the team and guessed the setup I knew we'd be up against it. Putting on Palmer, then latterly Paterson and Weimann also made 3-0 more likely than 2-1 and any kind of comeback.

This isn't a criticism of those 3 and I get it, we were chasing the game but balance all wrong.

Too open yet insufficient attacking threat too and at the same time...it's quite hard to pull that combination off but I have to give it to LJ, he's achieved that!!

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3 hours ago, JonDolman said:

The one thing I have never understood about LJ is his obsession with 442.

Quite clearly we were outnumbered in midfield. Yet we tried to pass it out the back all game even though we clearly looked like we'd lose it, which we so often did. Madness. Might as well go long in such a set up.

Wells is not going to be the striker we saw for Huddersfield and QPR when at his best for those 2 sides he played up top with 1 in behind. But for us today he was more or less making up for our lack of numbers in deeper areas. 

I'm not sure what LJ is seeing. We'd be better defensively with an extra midfielder in there and be able to pass the ball better as well.

Bizarre! He's not obsessed with 442. We've played many games 352 and 4141. Earlier this season many on here were screaming for 442 to get Elliasson in the side and give Fam upfront some help with our desperate need for a second striker, and now because it hasnt worked for a couple of games 442s to blame. Make your minds up. 

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15 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Bizarre! He's not obsessed with 442. We've played many games 352 and 4141. Earlier this season many on here were screaming for 442 to get Elliasson in the side and give Fam upfront some help with our desperate need for a second striker, and now because it hasnt worked for a couple of games 442s to blame. Make your minds up. 

I'm not the same as the people you say wanted 442. I never wanted 442.

Overall I'd say we have played 442 more than any other formation under LJ. It only really worked when we went Reid and Pato up top.

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Our players are literally scared to have the ball. We wouldn’t have got close with 15 on the pitch today, the midfield kept running away from the man in possession.

There were zero passing options all too often. 

Until the midfield grow some balls, we’ll keep being awful, at least at home...

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I'm wondering (tin foil hat time) if we're sticking to 442 to accommodate Eliasson so we can sell him in the summer and go back to 532 which suits the entire rest of the squad much better, we wouldn't then ever have a discussion about 442 because it wouldn't suit us at all.

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LJ’s best team was when he stumbled upon 4 centre backs across the back 4 (Wright Flint Baker Magnússon) then a solid 4 in midfield (Brownhill Smith Pack Bryan) then Paterson in behind Reid. 

How could that be replicated now? Maybe Kalas Benkovic Williams Baker, with Weimann Smith Henrickson Dasilva then Palmer/Paterson, then Wells.

Dasilva in midfield on the face of it a strange one but would keep us more solid compared to Eliasson. 

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8 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

Our players are literally scared to have the ball. We wouldn’t have got close with 15 on the pitch today, the midfield kept running away from the man in possession.

There were zero passing options all too often. 

Until the midfield grow some balls, we’ll keep being awful, at least at home...

That's the thing. WBA all played so close together in and out of possession. Compact without the ball but also fluid when they had possession.

It looks so hard for us to pass the ball. And that's not because of lack of ability imo.

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1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

That's the thing. WBA all played so close together in and out of possession. Compact without the ball but also fluid when they had possession.

It looks so hard for us to pass the ball. And that's not because of lack of ability imo.

@Cowshed much easier to trigger the press when you’re all in close proximity!!!

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13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@Cowshed much easier to trigger the press when you’re all in close proximity!!!

 

14 hours ago, JonDolman said:

That's the thing. WBA all played so close together in and out of possession. Compact without the ball but also fluid when they had possession.

It looks so hard for us to pass the ball. And that's not because of lack of ability imo.

Have a think about their formation. It should allow them numerical advantage  frequently in and out of possession.

In central midfield WBA had one and two extra players to defend and attack.

WBA's formation by its nature creates cover to press.

 

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4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 

Have a think about their formation. It should allow them numerical advantage  frequently in and out of possession.

In central midfield WBA had one and two extra players to defend and attack.

WBA's formation by its nature creates cover to press.

 

Fully agreed.

I've been trying to work it out for a while and alluding to it but you nailed it. That central 3, or way they were setup, gives that cover to press as you say. 

That numerical advantage, as well as the improved ability to press, also gives extra control, security. Balance too.

Plus margin for error. It's beyond me why LJ:

a) Goes 4-4-2 yet supposedly trying to attack or control the game. 

And b) Why when he goes 4-2-3-1, has Paterson or at times before him Palmer, even less suited or at times O'Dowda centrally. 

This is no slight on them as players, but tactically it makes it harder for us to make it work and especially vs good sides! Can just leave us exposed.

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