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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That is not true, we made a £25m loss in 17/18 despite net spend.  The sooner people stop talking “net spend” the better.  It’s not relevant.  It’s wider than net spend.

People on here can put their hands over their ears and go “la la ka”, but we are nowhere near sustainable.  If you want SL to bail us out each year to the tune of £10m(ish) every season, then fine, but don’t quote “sustainability”.  

Why you “mmm’ing” @Robbored?  The facts are in the annual accounts.

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3 minutes ago, NickJ said:

 

As I’ve said before I won’t debate with you as it’s a waste of time. 
 

What I will do though is correct your factual inaccuracies.

Johnson has spent more than he has received, and when you add in the massively higher salaries, even more so. 
 

If you try to refute that simple fact go for it but I won’t be wasting my breath again. 

That is your stock reply a Nick - you just can’t accept that you’re wrong on this topic.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Why you “mmm’ing” @Robbored?  The facts are in the annual accounts.

It’s far less complicated than yore making it Dave. It’s simple mathematics.

Sell several players for an estimated sum of £80m and recruit several players at around £50m. My arithmetic makes that £30m difference.

I don’t read any accounts partly because I find them dry and dull and partly because they mean very little to me.

 

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10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s far less complicated than yore making it Dave. It’s simple mathematics.

Sell several players for an estimated sum of £80m and recruit several players at around £50m. My arithmetic makes that £30m difference.

I don’t read any accounts partly because I find them dry and dull and partly because they mean very little to me.

 

Still cannot make out whether you are a shit poster who talks clever or a clever poster who talks shit. Got to hand it to @Robbored

I'm a big fanboy, I have to admit  :laugh:

Talking of which, I must remember to vote in the new LJ out or in poll, so kindly put up by RedDave AGAIN.

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9 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s far less complicated than yore making it Dave. It’s simple mathematics.

Sell several players for an estimated sum of £80m and recruit several players at around £50m. My arithmetic makes that £30m difference.

I don’t read any accounts partly because I find them dry and dull and partly because they mean very little to me.

 

Well that’s a f€£king cop-out on your part.  At its most naive you are ignoring signing on fees, agent fees, sell-on percentages (£1.368m to Preston for Brownhill, £1m to Swindon for Flint, etc etc).  Edit - forgot £2m (ish) to Angers for Kodjia too.

Let alone increased wage bill, amortisation of contracts 3x the size of Preston.

As I said, put your fingers in your ears and go “la la la”....doesn’t mean it’s fake news!

We aren’t in FFP difficulties, but we are in no way sustainable.

If you refuse to be educated by the way finances in football work then don’t quote £ 30m net spend as relevant.  It’s absolute bollocks.....I think you know that.  You surprise me with your support of this.  

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9 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s far less complicated than yore making it Dave. It’s simple mathematics.

Sell several players for an estimated sum of £80m and recruit several players at around £50m. My arithmetic makes that £30m difference.

I don’t read any accounts partly because I find them dry and dull and partly because they mean very little to me.

 

You trying to put @Davefevs right about financial aspects is one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on here

 

.... embarrassing -

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7 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

You trying to put @Davefevs right about financial aspects is one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on here

 

.... embarrassing -

Im not going to reply directly to the idiot but it’s especially amusing when he finishes with “accounts mean very little to me.”

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2 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Im not going to reply directly to the idiot but it’s especially amusing when he finishes with “accounts mean very little to me.”

I used to try and work out if a completely sad WUM / Troll or embarrassingly stupid on numerous subjects (Add football finances)

Difficult to decipher so embarrassing covers it 

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@AppyDAZE

You seem to question the ambition across a number of posts on this thread, in terms of getting to the PL.

I ask you, with FFP an increasingly important factor, what do you do differently? I'd say Benkovic, Henriksen and Wells are all strong January additions, clearly something is wrong in general. I blame the tactics and mindset but we'll all have our own views. 

Oh yeah, ambition or otherwise.

Some facts to consider:

1. In 2017/18, T-2 in FFP parlance, we lost £25m. That acts as a bit of a drain on the next two seasons.

2) Last season though see made a profit of £12m, £38m of that was from the Profit on Transfers...£26m Operating Losses after transfers but before Profit on Transfers?? Granted that has put us in a better place. 

3) This season we need to balance both that loss and that profit with future considerations. Bentley, Kalas, DaSilva, Mary, Massingham, Palmer. Plus loans  for Pereira and Adobe. Latterly Williams and maybe Rodri...January Wells plus the Benkovic and Henriksen loans. 

We've sold players too but none of it, none of this will come cheap!! Worth looking at both Operating loss and Operating Loss pre transfers, think I saw the latter on there once, this is a good starting point. 

IF we don't sell any key players or important first reserves this summer, that alone would be a sign of ambition, a statement. Much as holding onto Flint in August 2017 and all our key men in January 2018 was. 

What do you propose?

Almost forgot, 100% or thereabouts of turnover was on wages in 2018/19.

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8 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Im not going to reply directly to the idiot but it’s especially amusing when he finishes with “accounts mean very little to me.”

It’s called “I've lost the argument / debate...but I’ll come up with some shit to try to save face”. ?

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55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And the f€£ker over delivered.  No excuses.  Wasn’t even expected to go straight up.  What about the other big budget clubs that didn’t deliver? Sheffield Utd, the irony!

...and let’s go back to the two earlier bids before Pelling scuppered them? Gray £4.5m (ish) Maguire £2.0m (ish).  Fredericks £250k.  Bloke had a f€£King great eye for a player.

Hypothetical, but makes me wonder how much Cotts might’ve made with similar resources?

You didn’t expect to go up with the squad we had? Let’s not make out that Cotts was given nothing to spend and had a poor squad, he had a very, very good league one side. Yes, getting the points tally we did and the JPT on top was impressive, but that was the best squad in a poor league one. 
 

He did have similar resources to what LJ has had, the difference being we’ve made a lot of money since his departure on a large quantity of players, allowing us to reinvest that back into the squad. Had Cotts stayed we may well have gone down (or at least have been a lot closer to relegation than we were), had that have happened I very much doubt we’d be in the position we are now. 
 

Yes, Cotts did a brilliant job in getting us up, but we’ve moved on, and very much upwards since he left. Today wasn’t great, granted, but if you look back at some of the results and performances from the first half on the 15/16 season it was a hell of a lot worse. Perhaps, had he been given a bit more time, and not been so stubborn with the 3-5-2, things may have turned around but we definitely did the right decision getting rid, and I certainly would not go back if LJ does go at the end of the season

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57 minutes ago, NickJ said:

The irony.

The fact that Cotterill wanted to sign those players, but we didn’t, only goes to disprove your point. 

It doesn’t though does it. He went in for players who were outside our budget at the time and didn’t get them. Let’s not forget we didn’t have the financial muscle back then that we do now, due to SL wanting to make the club more financially stable. Therefore, going and spending vast amounts, whilst getting no money back from sales, wasn’t going to happen

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5 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

...or, they were already lined up for Lee Johnson right from the off 

The squad was absolutely bare under Cotts. It was quite obvious he had the rug pulled out from under him

The squad was bare because he didn’t look to strengthen it properly in the summer. We started the season with a first team squad of 20, which was nowhere near enough. Instead of going for big money signings, perhaps Cotts should have bolstered the squad to make us more competitive with greater depth. Instead he went for the big money players, and that back fired. The fact that once LJ came in we changed the system and invested in players that suited it was what saw us become safe

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1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

You didn’t expect to go up with the squad we had?

Nope.  Did you?  Perhaps if you did think that it was partly because Cotts gave you that confidence.  Assembling a fresh squad...no guarantees, knitted it together pretty well didn’t he?  Lost his top scorer (Baldock) in the process.

Let’s not make out that Cotts was given nothing to spend
nobody is, but he didn’t spend much in the grand scheme of things did he?

and had a poor squad, he had a very, very good league one side.

so have plenty of other managers....and not achieved.

Yes, getting the points tally we did and the JPT on top was impressive, but that was the best squad in a poor league one.

eff me, talk about trying to falsely undermine a brilliant season.  Swindon, Sheffield Utd, Preston, MKD, Peterborough, Rochdale, Fleetwood, etc...maybe not your stereotypical power-houses in some cases, but very competitive.  Cotts 352, flying centre backs, high positioned wing backs.  Lost both his strikers for periods of the season.  You lose credibility with statements like that.  I’ll admit I loved Cotts for what he did, but I’m not blinkered to know the following season became a problem.  You have never shirked a chance to criticise him.
 

He did have similar resources to what LJ has had

please provide evidence.

, the difference being we’ve made a lot of money since his departure on a large quantity of players, allowing us to reinvest that back into the squad.

players bought by SOD and Cotts....

Had Cotts stayed we may well have gone down (or at least have been a lot closer to relegation than we were), had that have happened I very much doubt we’d be in the position we are now.
we will never know.  Tomlin made a huge impact.
 

Yes, Cotts did a brilliant job in getting us up, but we’ve moved on, and very much upwards since he left. Today wasn’t great, granted, but if you look back at some of the results and performances from the first half on the 15/16 season it was a hell of a lot worse. Perhaps, had he been given a bit more time, and not been so stubborn with the 3-5-2, things may have turned around but we definitely did the right decision getting rid, and I certainly would not go back if LJ does go at the end of the season

but you are trying to completely dismiss the success he had, in such a short period.  When you sit 10 yards away from him in the Amphitheatre following promotion and see the passion in him, and the opportunity he saw, then a few short months later you see a beleaguered manager in Portugal, does it make you not wonder whether all was not right.  The stubbornness came later.

If you are happy to believe that MA is to blame for recruitment, rather than LJ....then you should be open to other things too.

 

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12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

With the squad we’d assembled I’d say promotion was the aim, and iirc there was a fair bit of excitement about what that squad could do. He didn’t spend much in terms of transfer fees, but the likes of Wilbraham, Elliott, Agard, JET, El-Abd, Fielding etc would have all been on very decent wages at league one level. Not trying to ‘poo-poo’ the season at all, like I said it was a brilliant season, however it wasn’t exactly a good league and we had a better squad than every side in it, comfortably so compared to everyone bar probably Preston, MK and Sheffield United. 
 

Again, I’m not diminishing Cotts achievement in getting us up in the fashion that he did. I just think that often people go a bit overboard with comparing him to LJ. A very good league one manager vs a solid Championship one. LJ sold players brought in by SOD and Cotts for big profits by improving them massively as footballers. I doubt anybody on here would have seen Flint, Bryan and Reid as £23 million worth of talent in December 2015. 
 

Again, I’ve never ‘completely dismissed’ what success he brought to the club, if you read my post you’ll see that’s not the case. However, the club has moved on from him and that’s proved to be a good thing for our long term stability. The work he did was pivotal in getting us up but I think he was found out at championship level. That’s not the same to ‘completely dismissing’ what he did in those 18 months from after SOD left.

I’m open to plenty of things, although I wouldn’t say MA is to blame for the recruitment, as LJ has constantly said that each player is brought in with his agreement.

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

It’s far less complicated than yore making it Dave. It’s simple mathematics.

Sell several players for an estimated sum of £80m and recruit several players at around £50m. My arithmetic makes that £30m difference.

I don’t read any accounts partly because I find them dry and dull and partly because they mean very little to me.

 

Image result for facepalm naked gun gif

 

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3 hours ago, Robbored said:

SC had agreed at interview that he would work within SLs strategy of developing young players with the aim of preparing them to reach Championship level. If they didn’t quite have the quality then moving them on.

However...........SC failed to apply the strategy pretty much in entire time he was City. He went to SL asking for funds to sign Gale or Grey saying that he had got all he could out of the squad but SL had essentially run of patience with him and eventually sacked him.

He brought in LJ because he trusted him to stick to the strategy - which of course he has and making a decent profit at the same time.

Thats going well then. 

Hes signed so many players the academy is utterly pointless. He doesnt even trust signings two years down the line that were signed to be 'developed' ffs. 

The only player which actively improved in their natural or main position under LJs tenure has been Brownhill. 

Reid was a position change he was forced into by injuries, Webster had an injury hit season at Ipswich before hand on which Ashton took a gamble, Kelly got worse the more he played first team football. 

Now we're completely relying on loans to develop our own players, signing the likes of Williams, Henrikson, Rodri, which could prevent our own players developing which could help more long term. 

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6 hours ago, tunnie12345 said:

I would rather be entertained than watch shit yes

Just think about it if were talking value for money here. can anyone honestly say that they have received value for money from their season tickets this year? Does anyone really look forward to a Saturday down the gate at the moment?  Regardless of league position here purely on entertainment value we are utter dog shi* at home and anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves.

I was like a little school kid always excited the night before a game in our double season now i go because i feel like i have too not because i want to. So if being in league one smashing teams week in week out is what it takes for me to fall in love with it again then yes i would happily do that right now. We may be in higher positions than we have been in a long time but the club has never felt so distant from the supporters in my opinion.

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16 hours ago, General Zod said:

Compared to the same LJ whose career highlight was beating Man U and who is tearing up the division with his entertaining winning football.

Cotterill was an excellent league 1 manager. Played some entertaining football but couldn’t adapt to championship life and didn’t buy into the clubs strategy. Come the end Cotterills football was turgid and left us languishing near the bottom of the championship. Not much of a comparison.....

IMO LJs career highlight was keeping us up that season. Agree football this season has not been as entertaining but if some how we end up in the top 6 this season, then in a results driven business it will have been success. 

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7 minutes ago, Beni71 said:

Cotterill was an excellent league 1 manager. Played some entertaining football but couldn’t adapt to championship life and didn’t buy into the clubs strategy. Come the end Cotterills football was turgid and left us languishing near the bottom of the championship. Not much of a comparison.....

IMO LJs career highlight was keeping us up that season. Agree football this season has not been as entertaining but if some how we end up in the top 6 this season, then in a results driven business it will have been success. 

Irrespective of the half a season he had in the Champ with us, he’s never been at a club in the Champ where he’s been given the resources to give it a go.  We don’t know how good a manager he could be at this level.

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16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The old net spend argument.  ?

Thanks, the additional context of increased wage bill, increased annual amortisation of contracts and the millstone it holds around our neck for the next few seasons.

Whilst not in any FFP trouble, we need to be more efficient with SL’s generosity/backing.

Not sure I agree there Dave.

Most of Fubars post is speculative and very unlikely. 

With O'Leary, Walsh, etc playing we probably wouldn't be in the playoff race.

 

Yes, our wage bill is up 30% or whatever from Cotterills time, but we have gone from relegation fodder to playoff contenders. We fell short last season, and I think we will again this season, but as a club we are now established as a top half side. Could even say consistent playoff contenders with a little stretch given we were well in the race before dropping to 11th the season before last.

Cotterill's side was also massively underperforming in the Championship under his tenure.

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5 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Not sure I agree there Dave.

Most of Fubars post is speculative and very unlikely. 

With O'Leary, Walsh, etc playing we probably wouldn't be in the playoff race.

 

Yes, our wage bill is up 30% or whatever from Cotterills time, but we have gone from relegation fodder to playoff contenders. We fell short last season, and I think we will again this season, but as a club we are now established as a top half side. Could even say consistent playoff contenders with a little stretch given we were well in the race before dropping to 11th the season before last.

Cotterill's side was also massively underperforming in the Championship under his tenure.

I was replying to Robbo who was trying to justify net spend as LJ doing well on the financial part of his “balanced scorecard”.  That part was nothing to do with Cotts.

Wage Bill - BCFC only (not including AG Ltd)

2019 Accounts - £24.6m

2016 Accounts - £15.4m

Increase of 59.7% (not 30% or whatever....twice the amount you suggest).

If we go back to:

2015 Accounts- £9.6m

Our wage bill has gone up 156%.

And that’s just the wage bill.

If we look at the amortised contract depreciation:

2019: £8.1m

2016: £2.3m

That’s a 252% increase.

The good part is the transfer profit we’ve made....which has kept our heads above water FFP-wise.

16 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Which sounds like he's not been trusted by the board of those clubs.

That’s a fair question, but worth a look at the clubs (apart from City):

Burnley - never had much to throw about, gave them solidity....but ultimately other managers came in and did get them up (finished 13th, 17th, 15th...were 16th when he went)

Forest - massive debts, owner died etc

Portsmouth - massive debts from Prem

Birmingham - massive probs from Redknapp spending spree

 

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