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The heart of the problem


Midlands Robin

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The Championship top 6 has been reasonably steady for a few weeks now. The results shown below clearly demonstrate the heart of our problem. For what ever reason, on or off the pitch, we simply aren't good enough where it matters, against those teams we need to beat to perform at the highest level:

Team.            Home.          Away

West Brom.   L 0-3.           L 4-1.

Leeds.           L 1-3.            L 1-0.

Fulham.       (07/03).        W 1-2

Brentford.     L 0-4.            D 1-1

Forrest.         D 0-0.           (22/03)

Preston.       (02/05).        D 3-3.

Played 9

W - 1 D - 3 L - 5

For 8 Against 20

6 points from a potential 27 (with 9 more points to play for) 

Simply not good enough. 

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The heart of this problem is our sh1te midfield and sh1te tactics from tinkerman!

Mourinho style negative tactics at home. 

We have midfielders that run away from the ball in possession and stay away from the ball when trying to win it back!

Watching players today, especially at throw ins, they were all spending more time being marked than trying to find space! Lazy and its our shocking movement that creates all of our possession troubles  

WBA passed and moved and had options all game, we had the standard LJ sideways, backwards, play ourselves into trouble or lump it possession  

Some identity Lee! Turn the lights out on your way out please  

 

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36 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said:

Oh well - stop watching - very negative on this forum. Let’s give up. 

I’m sure not many are giving up, but you can’t fail to acknowledge these stats and what they mean. What’s the alternative, pretend they haven’t happened? These results will shape our season and we will be where we deserve to be.

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I think the basic problem is that we don't know what the big picture is meant to look like. Therefore we are not recruiting the right pieces to construct the jigsaw. It is a hotch potch recruitment policy that isn't aiming towards a clear end goal. 

Do we want speedy, attacking wing backs for a 3-5-2. Do we want a load of tall players to play Pulisball. 

Do we want an outstanding CF who can play up front on his own with his back to goal and play in the on-rushing attacking midfielders. 

Who the **** knows. It certainly doesn't look like MA and LJ do. It feels random and scattergun. Clubs in the bag and that's it. Just throwing money at it with no obvious strategy. At one time we signed a whole load of wingers while playing with no wide midfielders and over-lapping fullbacks. 

I just have no effing idea what they think they are aiming for and am convinced they don't either. 

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I always compare ourselves to a few teams that we seem to try to emulate that haven't been in the prem and are on a similar trajectory. 

When we first got promoted Brentford and Leeds looked at least 2 seasons ahead of us with Preston looking about a season ahead. Last season I would have said Leeds still look 2 seasons ahead with Brentford and Preston a season behind. Now Leeds look 3 seasons ahead with Brentford 2 seasons ahead and Preston 1 season ahead. Either these teams have all been able to take big strides forward or we have gone backwards.

I don't know whether to blame LJ or to feel sorry for him. I'm sure he would like to play more entertaining football but every time he gets a good player they are sold and he has to start all over again with someone new - usually taking a step back to hopefully be able to take 2 steps forward. It's a tough one but I don't think anyone else would do a better job with the constraints The constraints are what are supposed to takes us forward slowly but surely but has there simply been too many backwards steps hoping for forward steps in the future, maybe in a couple years we will take a big stride forward if we get to keep the current crop.

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3 hours ago, nickolas said:

The heart of this problem is our sh1te midfield and sh1te tactics from tinkerman!

Mourinho style negative tactics at home. 

We have midfielders that run away from the ball in possession and stay away from the ball when trying to win it back!

Watching players today, especially at throw ins, they were all spending more time being marked than trying to find space! Lazy and its our shocking movement that creates all of our possession troubles  

WBA passed and moved and had options all game, we had the standard LJ sideways, backwards, play ourselves into trouble or lump it possession  

Some identity Lee! Turn the lights out on your way out please  

 

And people scoffed at Liverpool appointing a throw-in coach!!!

1 hour ago, windmillhillred said:

I’m pretty sure he does. And he thinks Eliasson is too valuable to the team to play that formation. I think he’s wrong, but judging by the reaction when Eliasson was taken off, I’m very much in the minority.

I’ll join your gang, brother. Did eff all today, bar one cross (COD chance) and winning one corner.  People don’t watch the game.  WBA RB on a yellow early doors.  What an opportunity.

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The main part is the idiotic obsession with playing out from our own penalty area.

Bentley - Williams (in pen area) - Nagy - Williams - Benkovich - Bentley - HOOF!

WE did this 20 times today.

It's pointless.

Kick the bloody ball into the opposition half and contest 50/50 balls at their end, not have our defenders and deep lying mids under pressure 20 yrds from our own goaline.

 

Every other manager in this division has sussed this out and hems us in. LJ just can't change his tactics.

If I was a defender at our club,I'd be on prozac trying to face the rest of the season getting the ball rolled out to me in our own penalty area with 4 or 5 opponents bearing down.

It's just a piss-poor game-plan which worked with Webster and Kalas at times,but it sure as shit ain't with Williams and Baker.

And the 8th best coach under 40 in the world can't or won't see that.

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2 minutes ago, SX227 said:

The main part is the idiotic obsession with playing out from our own penalty area.

Bentley - Williams (in pen area) - Nagy - Williams - Benkovich - Bentley - HOOF!

WE did this 20 times today.

It's pointless.

Kick the bloody ball into the opposition half and contest 50/50 balls at their end, not have our defenders and deep lying mids under pressure 20 yrds from our own goaline.

 

Every other manager in this division has sussed this out and hems us in. LJ just can't change his tactics.

If I was a defender at our club,I'd be on prozac trying to face the rest of the season getting the ball rolled out to me in our own penalty area with 4 or 5 opponents bearing down.

It's just a piss-poor game-plan which worked with Webster and Kalas at times,but it sure as shit ain't with Williams and Baker.

And the 8th best coach under 40 in the world can't or won't see that.

I like the whole post, but the bold bit in particular. ??????

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19 minutes ago, SX227 said:

The main part is the idiotic obsession with playing out from our own penalty area.

Bentley - Williams (in pen area) - Nagy - Williams - Benkovich - Bentley - HOOF!

WE did this 20 times today.

It's pointless.

Kick the bloody ball into the opposition half and contest 50/50 balls at their end, not have our defenders and deep lying mids under pressure 20 yrds from our own goaline.

 

Every other manager in this division has sussed this out and hems us in. LJ just can't change his tactics.

If I was a defender at our club,I'd be on prozac trying to face the rest of the season getting the ball rolled out to me in our own penalty area with 4 or 5 opponents bearing down.

It's just a piss-poor game-plan which worked with Webster and Kalas at times,but it sure as shit ain't with Williams and Baker.

And the 8th best coach under 40 in the world can't or won't see that.

Agreed. 
We have centre backs who are not comfortable with the ball and who can’t play quick precise passes. 
We have central midfielders who are not comfortable on the ball and who can’t receive a pass under pressure and maintain possession. 
 

Why do we bother trying to play this way when we don’t have the quality of players to do it. 
 

I’m with you pal. We’re not capable of possession football and building from the back. We need to play a purposefully direct game, get balls into channels over the top, get the midfield higher up the pitch around Diedhiou for second balls in their half. 
 

We don’t have the quality of player to play the way we are trying to play. 

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2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Agreed. 
We have centre backs who are not comfortable with the ball and who can’t play quick precise passes. 
We have central midfielders who are not comfortable on the ball and who can’t receive a pass under pressure and maintain possession. 
 

Why do we bother trying to play this way when we don’t have the quality of players to do it. 
 

I’m with you pal. We’re not capable of possession football and building from the back. We need to play a purposefully direct game, get balls into channels over the top, get the midfield higher up the pitch around Diedhiou for second balls in their half. 
 

We don’t have the quality of player to play the way we are trying to play. 

So, why are we trying to play the way we are?

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26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, why are we trying to play the way we are?

I guess you would have to ask the head coach.

If things aren't working,it's one of:

1) The players can't do it

2) The players don't want to do it

3) The players don't understand the message/system

 

And all those 3 are fully under the remit of one Mr L Johnson esq

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, why are we trying to play the way we are?

 

4 minutes ago, SX227 said:

I guess you would have to ask the head coach.

If things aren't working,it's one of:

1) The players can't do it

2) The players don't want to do it

3) The players don't understand the message/system

 

And all those 3 are fully under the remit of one Mr L Johnson esq

 

 

I can only assume that in training they are able to carry out the plans/patterns that are being taught and LJ must think “yeah, this can work”. 
But the problem, as always, is that you’re facing another team. Plans and patterns that may work well in training maybe can’t get implemented when the players are expected to execute them at a higher tempo and under pressure. 
 

Look, there’s no doubting these players are capable players. They wouldn’t be pro-footballers if they weren’t able to pass a ball 10 yards.  
But I do question whether some of them are top 10 champ level players. 
In fact, judging by our results vs top 12 teams in comparison to bottom 12 teams, these players are clearly mid-table performers. It could be argued that we are punching above our weight by being 7th, when comparable results suggest we are a mid table team. 
 

I compare it to when I used to play. I often had a good game against bottom half teams but really felt 2nd best against top half teams. My talent level was pretty much mid table for the level I was playing at. Against the bottom half teams I was able to play neat and tidy football and have time on the ball. Against the better teams I was all too often under pressure and couldn’t play my normal game. 
It must be the same for these guys. What works well in training can work well against lesser opposition but against top teams we struggle to play ‘our’ game. 
 

That’s a combination of a) poor recruitment and b) not adapting the plan against better teams. 
 

I’ve said many times on here, I can’t put any of our players in the ‘top 6’ bracket in this division. We’re a mid table outfit currently punching above our weight. And we need to assemble a better game plan against the top teams to try to squeeze a few more points from those games. 

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7 hours ago, Harry said:

Agreed. 
We have centre backs who are not comfortable with the ball and who can’t play quick precise passes. 
We have central midfielders who are not comfortable on the ball and who can’t receive a pass under pressure and maintain possession. 
 

Why do we bother trying to play this way when we don’t have the quality of players to do it. 
 

I’m with you pal. We’re not capable of possession football and building from the back. We need to play a purposefully direct game, get balls into channels over the top, get the midfield higher up the pitch around Diedhiou for second balls in their half. 
 

We don’t have the quality of player to play the way we are trying to play. 

I think this is pretty much correct, with the one addition that yesterday by playing a “traditional” 4-4-2 the problem was exaggerated. It was rare that COD or NE got themselves in a position to get the ball from the centre backs so the options were either Nagy, Henriksen or the full backs. WBA were able to press all of those due to a lack of options (in effect we played often as a 6 and a 4 but didn’t play between those two sub sets).

I think we can play out from the back in the right formation/personnel by creating those “overloads” - however the way we set up didn’t give us the opportunity to do that

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1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think this is pretty much correct, with the one addition that yesterday by playing a “traditional” 4-4-2 the problem was exaggerated. It was rare that COD or NE got themselves in a position to get the ball from the centre backs so the options were either Nagy, Henriksen or the full backs. WBA were able to press all of those due to a lack of options (in effect we played often as a 6 and a 4 but didn’t play between those two sub sets).

I think we can play out from the back in the right formation/personnel by creating those “overloads” - however the way we set up didn’t give us the opportunity to do that

I agree.  Both Callum and Eliasson are touchline huggers when they play as wingers.  Would’ve been better playing 4 CMs and let them be fluid in their movement, like Brownhill was as the RM in 17/18.  In fairness to COD in the opening phases, he made two driving runs, one where he failed to play in Nagy, the other where the ball to Dasilva was on (although difficult), but he checked and the move began its next phase.  Imho, Callum can only play when he has space.  Yesterday West Brom weren’t gonna allow him any.

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10 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

Nicklaus must feel frustrated as we all did after Bham. No one in the ground felt that way today as we were beaten by a much better team. 

Our midfield isn't great but we've won a lot of games this seasonbso let's we can win more this week

Waffle. 

Sorry HR, but please at least try and make your drivel understandable ?

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9 hours ago, SX227 said:

The main part is the idiotic obsession with playing out from our own penalty area.

Bentley - Williams (in pen area) - Nagy - Williams - Benkovich - Bentley - HOOF!

WE did this 20 times today.

It's pointless.

Kick the bloody ball into the opposition half and contest 50/50 balls at their end, not have our defenders and deep lying mids under pressure 20 yrds from our own goaline.

 

Every other manager in this division has sussed this out and hems us in. LJ just can't change his tactics.

If I was a defender at our club,I'd be on prozac trying to face the rest of the season getting the ball rolled out to me in our own penalty area with 4 or 5 opponents bearing down.

It's just a piss-poor game-plan which worked with Webster and Kalas at times,but it sure as shit ain't with Williams and Baker.

And the 8th best coach under 40 in the world can't or won't see that.

Spot on SX, I’ve been saying this for ages. We playing the majority of our passing football in our own half and put ourselves under pressure. The knock on effect is midfield come deeper to try link up the play, the opposition know this and just squeeze us and wait for the mistake. 
 

I assume Johnson can see what is happening but he doesn’t seem to be able to stop it happening. Let’s be honest we didn’t lay a glove on WBA today same at Leeds. 
 

Poor Wells must think what he has signed up to, he was running around today just trying to get into the game. 

I know fans keep saying we’re near the playoffs and have every, chance, but when the chips our down we’re miles off the pace. I would love to share the optimism of those fans but on what I have seen this season we’ll do well to finish in the top 10.
 

Somehow Johnson needs to finds the team that attacked teams and made them worry about us, we’re nowhere near that now.

 

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31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I agree.  Both Callum and Eliasson are touchline huggers when they play as wingers.  Would’ve been better playing 4 CMs and let them be fluid in their movement, like Brownhill was as the RM in 17/18.  In fairness to COD in the opening phases, he made two driving runs, one where he failed to play in Nagy, the other where the ball to Dasilva was on (although difficult), but he checked and the move began its next phase.  Imho, Callum can only play when he has space.  Yesterday West Brom weren’t gonna allow him any.

Think COD can play central and is more adaptable  - played well against Swansea at home last season (just the one game). Not a popular opinion but would rest NE,  he’s clearly off form and also presents the opportunity for us to go to 352 which would strengthen the middle of the park.

Yesterday made you realise how much we miss Brownhill and although in buying a proven goal scorer in Wells, we’ve created another hole that will need filling. Plenty of potential candidates in the club that could fill that role (Walsh, Morrell, Morton, Massengo). 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Beni71 said:

Think COD can play central and is more adaptable  - played well against Swansea at home last season (just the one game). Not a popular opinion but would rest NE,  he’s clearly off form and also presents the opportunity for us to go to 352 which would strengthen the middle of the park.

Yesterday made you realise how much we miss Brownhill and although in buying a proven goal scorer in Wells, we’ve created another hole that will need filling. Plenty of potential candidates in the club that could fill that role (Walsh, Morrell, Morton, Massengo). 

 

 

He is a player that can be effective if he’s given space.  He would’ve got bugger all space yesterday v West Brom, and would’ve been anonymous.

I don’t want to go back to 352...but if LJ thinks Wells needs a partner, then it is the only way we’ll grind out results against the better teams in this division.  I think some of those 6 pointers coming up are now must-win rather than must-not-lose.

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30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He is a player that can be effective if he’s given space.  He would’ve got bugger all space yesterday v West Brom, and would’ve been anonymous.

I don’t want to go back to 352...but if LJ thinks Wells needs a partner, then it is the only way we’ll grind out results against the better teams in this division.  I think some of those 6 pointers coming up are now must-win rather than must-not-lose.

I think this is one of our problems.

I have long felt that LJ is much more comfortable setting teams up to counter the opposition - in simple terms prioritising not to lose - rather than playing to our strengths and imposing ourselves on the game - again in simple terms, going out to win a game.

@Midlands Robin points to our record against top teams, but I think the fact that we have all too often struggled to look convincing at home against many lesser teams is perhaps more telling, usually struggling to get shots on goal and often being on the back foot and under pressure. 

If LJ now changes things to make us more positive - because he has to - and does so successfully, then I would seriously question why he hasn't done so sooner in the season.

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13 hours ago, windmillhillred said:

I’m pretty sure he does. And he thinks Eliasson is too valuable to the team to play that formation. I think he’s wrong, but judging by the reaction when Eliasson was taken off, I’m very much in the minority.

I think taking Eliasson off was the right thing to do. We have tried to incorporate him as much as possible to the detriment of the rest of the squad. I hope someone stumps up for him in the summer because he is an excellent player and person that just doesn't seem to fit in to our football.

As much as I hate to say it I feel like him leaving is the best thing for all involved.

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