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Wells signing has made us worse!


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Not because of Wells being a bad player. No doubt he is a classy goal scorer at this level.

But before him LJ had briefly found a system and way of winning with Fam up top on his own. Pretty much the same as our great 11 wins and 4 draws in 15 run of games last season.

Okay we did lose to Birmingham playing that too, but one loss in 5, winning 4. Generally it looked solid in most of those games and had us winning. At this point I'm sure many would take that as something to move forward with in a season where we haven't played good football much anyway.

I remember a poster on here ( was it Reddave?) saying Wells is a bad signing. No doubt he got stick for this, but I completely get what he meant - that he won't fit in with what we have.

At previous clubs Wells has mainly been at his best when up top in a 4231 kind of formation as the main striker. With a Chair at QPR or Palmer or Izzy Brown behind him at Huddersfield.

He can hold it up pretty well for his size, he can even win headers. And with his pace, movement, work rate and good technique, he really fits a team with creativity in behind him.

He has that aggression as well, something a short striker up top on their own need against big centre halves. His finishing is superb with either foot. Whether I'm overrating him slightly or not. He is a goal scorer with pace who seems to like the lone role. We don't play him in that role though.

LJ for some reason seems to love playing 2 strikers. And it means Wells is dropping back a lot. I knew LJ would do this rather than bravely dropping Fam.

Instead of balls being played from a short distance behind Wells for him to run onto, in behind the defence, he is having to try and get onto flick ons. Drop back a lot to help our outnumbered midfield etc.

352 did not seem to fix the problem yesterday. Maybe that was down to the poor midfield, who knows. But I'm not liking what I see from LJ in trying to get the best out of him so far.

Edited by JonDolman
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At QPR, I believe he dropped back a lot. He’s always going to be someone who comes and searches for the ball.

You’re right though, his two chances came from short passes through. The one from Eliasson when he took a snapshot on the turn and just missed the far post showed his quality. I would really want to see him with Palmer playing him through.

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3 minutes ago, Dastardly and Muttley said:

At QPR, I believe he dropped back a lot. He’s always going to be someone who comes and searches for the ball.

You’re right though, his two chances came from short passes through. The one from Eliasson when he took a snapshot on the turn and just missed the far post showed his quality. I would really want to see him with Palmer playing him through.

Yes he will, like I guess all strikers do in coming deep and showing for the ball to get attacks started. 

But so far it seems he's been coming back far too much because we are outnumbered in midfield and under pressure in games.

Or last night it seemed Fam at times was the one playing more in behind Wells, which is ridiculous as apart from the through pass against Leeds, Fam is not any good in that position.

4 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

Great Post. He has looked league 1 so far and you can't blame the other players or the coach if you miss open goals, (Leeds, WBA) and don't put in effort (Huddersfield) 

True he has missed some very good chances so far.

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14 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

Great Post. He has looked league 1 so far and you can't blame the other players or the coach if you miss open goals, (Leeds, WBA) and don't put in effort (Huddersfield) 

What complete rubbish.

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18 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

Great Post. He has looked league 1 so far and you can't blame the other players or the coach if you miss open goals, (Leeds, WBA) and don't put in effort (Huddersfield) 

How can you possibly blame the strikers when they are getting absolutely no service & feeding off scraps. 

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Its worth remembering that we, as a fanbase were screaming out for a proven striker to play up with Fammy, and realistically , Wells was probably about the best we could get at the time. Now the team, and Wells have stopped scoring, I'm not sure that we should be moaning about a fox in the box type, that we all demanded, upsetting our style and not fitting in.

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6 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Its worth remembering that we, as a fanbase were screaming out for a proven striker to play up with Fammy, and realistically , Wells was probably about the best we could get at the time. Now the team, and Wells have stopped scoring, I'm not sure that we should be moaning about a fox in the box type, that we all demanded, upsetting our style and not fitting in.

We did not all demand this though. I didn't demand a striker up top with Fam as I've always said Fam is better on his own.

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Worth remembering that at QPR Wells was scoring at about double the rate you'd expect given the number and quality of chances he was getting. He had a massive purple patch that catapulted him up the goal scoring charts. To expect him to come into a new team that wasn't (and still isn't) creating a high number of chances and continue that scoring rate was always dangerously hopeful.

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45 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Shock horror, we don’t play to a strikers strength and he fails to score,

wells makes the runs but we are too static slow and predictable for him to

make an impact

 

Same scenario when Weimann played up front, lots of runs but never picked out. 
 

Is that because of the player, team formation we play or the manager not playing to the strengths of the player.

Personally think it’s a mixture of all 3.

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2 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

Great Post. He has looked league 1 so far and you can't blame the other players or the coach if you miss open goals, (Leeds, WBA) and don't put in effort (Huddersfield) 

Jesus Wept

After years and months of posts from you proclaiming LJ as the a reincarnation of God himself ,  and castigating and demeaning anyone who even dare to question him

You are slating and writing Wells off already (I did say at the time he’s decent but not the Messiah) 

 

Btw If he’s looked League 1 so far , he’s actually doing rather well as most of the rest are performing somewhere near Confernce level

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6 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Not because of Wells being a bad player. No doubt he is a classy goal scorer at this level.

But before him LJ had briefly found a system and way of winning with Fam up top on his own. Pretty much the same as our great 11 wins and 4 draws in 15 run of games last season.

Okay we did lose to Birmingham playing that too, but one loss in 5, winning 4. Generally it looked solid in most of those games and had us winning. At this point I'm sure many would take that as something to move forward with in a season where we haven't played good football much anyway.

I remember a poster on here ( was it Reddave?) saying Wells is a bad signing. No doubt he got stick for this, but I completely get what he meant - that he won't fit in with what we have.

At previous clubs Wells has mainly been at his best when up top in a 4231 kind of formation as the main striker. With a Chair at QPR or Palmer or Izzy Brown behind him at Huddersfield.

He can hold it up pretty well for his size, he can even win headers. And with his pace, movement, work rate and good technique, he really fits a team with creativity in behind him.

He has that aggression as well, something a short striker up top on their own need against big centre halves. His finishing is superb with either foot. Whether I'm overrating him slightly or not. He is a goal scorer with pace who seems to like the lone role. We don't play him in that role though.

LJ for some reason seems to love playing 2 strikers. And it means Wells is dropping back a lot. I knew LJ would do this rather than bravely dropping Fam.

Instead of balls being played from a short distance behind Wells for him to run onto, in behind the defence, he is having to try and get onto flick ons. Drop back a lot to help our outnumbered midfield etc.

352 did not seem to fix the problem yesterday. Maybe that was down to the poor midfield, who knows. But I'm not liking what I see from LJ in trying to get the best out of him so far.

I actually disagree with you on this one. I still think he's exactly what we need but you have to consider his games at City:

QPR - win - came on as sub

Brum - loss - came on as sub

Derby - win - full and scored

(So limited gametime but going okay...)

Leeds - City totally dominated 

WBA - City totally dominated 

Hudds - City Totally dominated 

How much of the above is down to Wells? I think the issue was our negative mindset, chaotic shuffling of line up, and players struggling to execute basics let alone their potential. 

I think this forum is guilty of searching for one defining problem ie a particular player, or formation when in fact, a series of influences have contributed to our demise. 

But how Wells signing makes us worse I don't understand. He just needs to play in a settled side, clear in their roles, motivated, confident, fit, working together on the pitch, responding to their coaching (among others).

Those things are more the problem.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Pair him with Weimann in a 3-5-2.

Weimann has better movement than Diedhiou...or as Dave suggested on another thread, 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 with Weimann-Wells-Eliasson.

Think Diedhiou and Wells could be an interesting Plan B but not Plan A, not for me.

I've talked about the idea before, but I wonder whether Diedhiou could play as a wide targetman in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1?

Would be fairly unconventional, but would enable Wells to play centrally with Palmer/Paterson in behind and Eliasson on the other wing. It would give him the chance to make runs to the back post which Eliasson's deliveries could be made for. 

Interesting video on the concept about Mandzukic 

 

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47 minutes ago, mozo said:

I actually disagree with you on this one. I still think he's exactly what we need but you have to consider his games at City:

QPR - win - came on as sub

Brum - loss - came on as sub

Derby - win - full and scored

(So limited gametime but going okay...)

Leeds - City totally dominated 

WBA - City totally dominated 

Hudds - City Totally dominated 

How much of the above is down to Wells? I think the issue was our negative mindset, chaotic shuffling of line up, and players struggling to execute basics let alone their potential. 

I think this forum is guilty of searching for one defining problem ie a particular player, or formation when in fact, a series of influences have contributed to our demise. 

But how Wells signing makes us worse I don't understand. He just needs to play in a settled side, clear in their roles, motivated, confident, fit, working together on the pitch, responding to their coaching (among others).

Those things are more the problem.

 

 

You've misunderstand my point. 

It's not that he's a bad signing. And it's not that he should make us worse. He should make us better.

It's LJ who has not managed so far to get the best out of him and got the team to benefit from his ability.

4141 with Fam up top was working.

Fitting in Wells into a 2 man attack with Fam we look a lot worse as a team.

 

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16 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

You've misunderstand my point. 

It's not that he's a bad signing. And it's not that he should make us worse. He should make us better.

It's LJ who has not managed so far to get the best out of him and got the team to benefit from his ability.

4141 with Fam up top was working.

Fitting in Wells into a 2 man attack with Fam we look a lot worse as a team.

 

That make sense most successful teams recently play with a lone striker or front 3

 

Edited by Monkeh
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The problem with the original argument is that we were also getting well beaten with this "system" ie Charlton on boxing day.

We all knew we needed a second main striker - Fam is too temperamental at risk of injury not to bring Wells in and having one of the leagues most effective strikers will not mess up any system - we just need better coaching to accommodate it.

I have no doubt we would have lost the last 3 without Wells - remember Barnsley and Luton without him.

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8 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Not because of Wells being a bad player. No doubt he is a classy goal scorer at this level.

But before him LJ had briefly found a system and way of winning with Fam up top on his own. Pretty much the same as our great 11 wins and 4 draws in 15 run of games last season.

Okay we did lose to Birmingham playing that too, but one loss in 5, winning 4. Generally it looked solid in most of those games and had us winning. At this point I'm sure many would take that as something to move forward with in a season where we haven't played good football much anyway.

I remember a poster on here ( was it Reddave?) saying Wells is a bad signing. No doubt he got stick for this, but I completely get what he meant - that he won't fit in with what we have.

At previous clubs Wells has mainly been at his best when up top in a 4231 kind of formation as the main striker. With a Chair at QPR or Palmer or Izzy Brown behind him at Huddersfield.

He can hold it up pretty well for his size, he can even win headers. And with his pace, movement, work rate and good technique, he really fits a team with creativity in behind him.

He has that aggression as well, something a short striker up top on their own need against big centre halves. His finishing is superb with either foot. Whether I'm overrating him slightly or not. He is a goal scorer with pace who seems to like the lone role. We don't play him in that role though.

LJ for some reason seems to love playing 2 strikers. And it means Wells is dropping back a lot. I knew LJ would do this rather than bravely dropping Fam.

Instead of balls being played from a short distance behind Wells for him to run onto, in behind the defence, he is having to try and get onto flick ons. Drop back a lot to help our outnumbered midfield etc.

352 did not seem to fix the problem yesterday. Maybe that was down to the poor midfield, who knows. But I'm not liking what I see from LJ in trying to get the best out of him so far.

Wells can play a number of roles up top including behind fam if needed. Our problem is a serious lack in midfield . It’s where any good side is at its strongest . Our current midfield must be one of the weakest in the league. 

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6 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Wells can play a number of roles up top including behind fam if needed. Our problem is a serious lack in midfield . It’s where any good side is at its strongest . Our current midfield must be one of the weakest in the league. 

Seeing as I mistakenly disagreed with @JonDolman I'll try disagreeing with your post instead...!

I think we've got loads of quality midfielders. I've seen them play well numerous times. Then I've seen their performances deteriorate, just as I have from other players. There's something else compromising our cohesion...

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8 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

Great Post. He has looked league 1 so far and you can't blame the other players or the coach if you miss open goals, (Leeds, WBA) and don't put in effort (Huddersfield) 

You talk utter shit.
 

But I fully support your right to do so!

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45 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

The problem with the original argument is that we were also getting well beaten with this "system" ie Charlton on boxing day.

We all knew we needed a second main striker - Fam is too temperamental at risk of injury not to bring Wells in and having one of the leagues most effective strikers will not mess up any system - we just need better coaching to accommodate it.

I have no doubt we would have lost the last 3 without Wells - remember Barnsley and Luton without him.

We didn't play that 4141 with Fam up top in any of those games you say about that we lost, or in Barnsley game drew in.

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9 minutes ago, mozo said:

Seeing as I mistakenly disagreed with @JonDolman I'll try disagreeing with your post instead...!

I think we've got loads of quality midfielders. I've seen them play well numerous times. Then I've seen their performances deteriorate, just as I have from other players. There's something else compromising our cohesion...

Mixture of the 2 for me, but Brownhill papered over a lot of cracks imo

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2 hours ago, mozo said:

 

Leeds - City totally dominated 

WBA - City totally dominated 

Hudds - City Totally dominated 

 

 

 

Another one for the grammar police - I think you mean "City were totally dominated". At least, I hope you do!

I agree with you though that you can't judge any striker on those three games when our midfield was so over-run.

Edited by italian dave
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Midfield missing in so many respects, little service for one up top and a player less to provide for two up top, Wells is very capable of doing a Tomlin and coming back to get the ball, but that won’t happen with an ineffective midfield coached by an ineffective midfielder

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For me it's got very little to do with playing 2 up top per se, but you have to play in certain ways to accommodate it. 

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way we set up against WBA, it was the fact that we didn't commit to it, we started the game allowing WBA possession and being tight at the back, and we were able to draw the WBA defence up the pitch, and they are big but they are not quick, so we created the space in behind and we had the players to exploit this in COD, Eliasson, and Wells with Fam to win the flick ons for Wells to run onto. But we did not outside the first 2 minutes when COD a couple of times attacked the space in behind, do anything with it. 

I don't think it matters what system and players we put out as I think the instruction they are getting is all wrong and no matter what system we seem to put out we do not commit to a style that will make it work, couple that with the constant changes meaning players never get an understanding of how each other move and play its not going to look good. 

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