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Did we think we were buying better than what we got?


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Obvious issues currently within the team, whether that's the fault of the players, the management or the board etc.

But looking at some of the recent signings, did we think we were getting much better players than we've actually ended up with?

I saw lots of comments when we signed Kalas that we now had the leagues 'best defender', but is he actually as good as we thought? Can probably name half a dozen CB's who have been arguably better this season. 

He's obviously not a bad player at all but are they (they being JD, Palmer and Wells more recently as well) actually just average Championship players rather than some of the leagues best in their positions?

Not to single out Kalas btw just an example to illustrate my point.

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1 minute ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

Obvious issues currently within the team, whether that's the fault of the players, the management or the board etc.

But looking at some of the recent signings, did we think we were getting much better players than we've actually ended up with?

I saw lots of comments when we signed Kalas that we now had the leagues 'best defender', but is he actually as good as we thought? Can probably name half a dozen CB's who have been arguably better this season. 

He's obviously not a bad player at all but are they (they being JD, Palmer and Wells more recently as well) actually just average Championship players rather than some of the leagues best in their positions?

Not to single out Kalas btw just an example to illustrate my point.

Kalas is clearly of considerable quality but has had a season disrupted by injuries every time he has started to get a run of games. 

The question should be pointed more towards Massengo and Nagy IMO, as midfield was the area where we were supposedly strengthening, but has clearly gone about 10 steps backwards. 

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Find it hilarious that people slagged Pack off at every opportunity, then after a few games Henrikson (who just seems like a BTEC Pack) is lauded over because we haven't had a CM able to pass the ball further than 15 yards for the past 6 months.

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5 minutes ago, Dottie said:

It seems to follow a pattern, all good players when they arrive but have it coached out if them. You could add Nagy & Massengo to that list too. 

Or they currently just aren't as good as they were bigged up to be? 

"Coached out of them" is just a ridiculous throwaway comment to point another stick at LJ. LJ hasn't coached either of them to get bullied off the ball frequently in midfield battles. Simply put, bar a number of games you can count on one hand, they have not been good enough. 

And I am firmly of the opinion that we need to look for an upgrade on LJ if we don't get playoffs.

Edited by marcofisher
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5 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Or they currently just aren't as good as they were bigged up to be? 

"Coached out of them" is just a ridiculous throwaway comment to point another stick at LJ. LJ hasn't coached either of them to get bullied off the ball frequently in midfield battles. Simply put, bar a number of games you can count on one hand, they have not been good enough. 

And I am firmly of the opinion that we need to look for an upgrade on LJ if we don't get playoffs.

That's the overall point I think I was trying to make but you've summed it up perfectly 😀

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2 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Or they currently just aren't as good as they were bigged up to be? 

"Coached out of them" is just a ridiculous throwaway comment to point another stick at LJ. LJ hasn't coached either of them to get bullied off the ball frequently in midfield battles. Simply put, bar a number of games you can count on one hand, they have not been good enough. 

I’m not wanting to point a stick at LJ at all, I’m not particularly in the LJ in or out camp, I’m just commenting on what I’ve seen, players that were good at the beginning of the season now playing  poorly with no confidence. Fulham away was one of the best performances for a long time, lovely to watch against a good side, the midfield that day was Brownhill, Nagy, Massengo & Elliason, they were all outstanding. How do you explain what’s gone wrong with them?

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18 minutes ago, SuperRed said:

I am getting the impression that Webster made Kalas look a lot better than he actually is. 

 

15 minutes ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

That's the worrying feeling I'm having as well.

His past track record at the top of the Championship with other clubs, maybe there was a bit of Webster improving Kalas but his past track record indicates that he is a significantly better player than what we are seeing right now.

Think Leeds and Swansea were interested in Kalas within the timeframe he joined us...ie summer 2018. Wouldn't have been if he was a dud!

Injuries haven't helped either, as others have said.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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I don't think the issue is with the players we are signings but the players we don't sign, if that makes sense.

Last season we were short a forward. We shipped out Taylor and Eisa in the summer, spent the entire summer chasing Nketiah, possibly missed out other targets, signed one striker at the last minute (leaving us still short a forward) and that forward then got injured so we played the first half of the season one forward short.

In January, we had Adam Nagy struggling with injury and Korey still working his way back to fitness. We sold Brownhill and replaced him with a loan signing who had not played all season and was not match fit and opted not to recall two players on-form in League One. Since then Nagy and Korey have had more injury problems.

Now, it may be Eisa wasn't good enough and selling Brownhill was good businesses, and we don't know how Walsh or Morrell would have done if they had come back, but I honestly think what will cost this season is not having enough fully fit players in key positions. And injuries might be bad luck but a lack of depth - especially in an area where we knew in January we had injuries and players lacking fitness - has to be seen as bad planning and, at best, a gamble that has backfired on us. 

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Some of us cautioned the expensive summer signings didn't exactly deliver success when they were on loan last year and often, when in receipt of a long term deal, the necessity to perform so as to retain employment tails off.

The expensive winter purchases haven't exactly hit the ground running and, more worrying, is an apparent lack of commitment and attitude in addition to ability.

Ashton Gate has long been a retirement home for last knockings, high earners though in WeeLee and Ashton's case it looks as though we've added an extension or two.

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33 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Kalas is clearly of considerable quality but has had a season disrupted by injuries every time he has started to get a run of games. 

The question should be pointed more towards Massengo and Nagy IMO, as midfield was the area where we were supposedly strengthening, but has clearly gone about 10 steps backwards. 

Neither Kalas or Nagy have been the same since returning from injury.

From recent articles it sounds like Nagy needs an op and this is being delayed until the summer. While we remain in contention for a play off place I can sort of understand this, but I also I get the feeling the op is being delayed so he can play in the Euro play offs and the championship, if they qualify. Given that the original injury was compounded when playing an international it seems his International situation is being given priority over the club. 

If they miss out in the play offs, by which time I reckon we will be out of contention I hope he gets the op asap to give the maximum recovery time and so he can go through full pre-season fully fit as the start of the season showed the sort of player he is.

For Kalas we know how good he can be from last season and before his injury. I wonder whether we rushed him back too soon ands before he was fully recovered and match fit.

Massengo clearly has a lot of talent and ability and when playing in the early part of the season opposition fans, let alone us, were asking how had we managed to sign him. I think he has suffered , due to his lack of experience, as the team around him has struggled to find a run of decent form.

I've said this before, and paraphrasing Morecambe and Wise, but I think we have all the right players but we are not necessarily playing them in the right order!

 

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23 minutes ago, Dottie said:

I’m not wanting to point a stick at LJ at all, I’m not particularly in the LJ in or out camp, I’m just commenting on what I’ve seen, players that were good at the beginning of the season now playing  poorly with no confidence. Fulham away was one of the best performances for a long time, lovely to watch against a good side, the midfield that day was Brownhill, Nagy, Massengo & Elliason, they were all outstanding. How do you explain what’s gone wrong with them?

Well, I suppose the problem for them was that Millwall and Blackburn declined to take us so lightly, play so open/loosely, and generally determined to make life bloody difficult and awkward for us, if nothing else, first and foremost, aware that this was the likeliest route to success. They both got their noses in front first, as well, and we struggle with that.

The win - result - at Fulham was excellent, if not the performance (think of the penalty they were refused) but those two subsequent home defeats brought us back down with a bump, and we are somewhere between how good we hoped we might be after Fulham, and how shocking we were against Millwall and Blackburn.

The Fulham win was slightly fortuitous and not wholly representative of our quality and chances (across 46 games). It raised hopes, false ones unfortunately (going in to two home games against two midtable sides we "should" beat), and the subsequent come down has been hard to take (from a point off third, to four points off sixth).

The Fulham win messed with our heads. The next two/four games gave our heads a wobble.

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17 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Some of us cautioned the expensive summer signings didn't exactly deliver success when they were on loan last year and often, when in receipt of a long term deal, the necessity to perform so as to retain employment tails off.

The expensive winter purchases haven't exactly hit the ground running and, more worrying, is an apparent lack of commitment and attitude in addition to ability.

Ashton Gate has long been a retirement home for last knockings, high earners though in WeeLee and Ashton's case it looks as though we've added an extension or two.

I think you are being a bit disingenuous to Dasilva and Kalas,  as they formed half of a very good defence lasts season, although it seem that as this season has unfolded more and more fans seem to credit the defensive record entirely to Webster, ignoring the fact that he formed half of probably the best central defensive partnerships in the championship. That they didn't deliver success last season while on loan is, I think, more to do with our prowess at the other end of the pitch than their defensive deficiencies.

As for this season, we lost Dasilva with a long term injury before the seasons started, so hardly his fault. Alas meanwhile was starting to forger a decent partnership with the young and inexperienced Moore until his untimely injury. Since then the defence has been anything but settled with umpteen changes in personnel and formations and the defensive frailties that have resulted are hardly surprising. I don't think Kalas was fully recovered when called back into he team and further injury absences would seem to confirm that, so it is hardly surprising that he has not been cute the player he was previously, especially when brought back into a team that seemed, and still seems, pretty devoid of confidence.

Palmer is a different issue and he was just starting to show his ability at the start of the season when Afobe was injured. There was little doubt that Famara's playing style was not best suited to a player like Palmer and he has struggled to find his place, because I'm not sure LJ knows quite how to ft him into his team. Now we have signed Wells it would seem that Wells would play best with a player like Palmer in behind him, and it doesn't seem that he is working well in a 2 with FD, but I can;t see LJ leaving FD out at the moment.

It's the same conundrum LJ has with Elliason - he's arguably our best and most effective attacking player, but only if we play 4-4-2, a formation that seems to expose us to much. However, if LJ goes 4-3-3 then where does he do with Elliason? 

 

 

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I am intrigued about our January business who drives this is it Ashton, is it Johnson is it scouting reports or a youtube video of best bits.

We sell arguably our best player in Brownhill and replace with;

1) Henriksen - a midfielder who hasn't played who scouted him as bar a few Norway games you wouldn't have seen much, did we take a punt on his fitness, did we just sign him on performances from way before Hull ditched him

2) Benkovic - a defender who again hasn't played much football, again who scouted him as he looks very immobile (some might call him a donkey!) did we sign him just on his reputation just because Leicester were stupid enough to pay £14m!?

3) Throw in Wells who we can't seem to fit in the side at all with Johnson scared to play him up front on his own the goals have dried up since we weakened the midfield (bar the Derby game which we were lucky to hang on for a win) 

....no wonder things have gone backwards further since the January window shut as we appear to have made yet another pigs ear of things...

 

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2 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I think you are being a bit disingenuous to Dasilva and Kalas,

We finished mid table also-rans having endured one of the worst runs in our history. So what reason to think they were the personnel to push us on to greater heights given they failed to do so first time around and accepting they no longer had to perform to merit their employment?

Kalas in particular looks like a bloke going through the motions and would rather be anywhere than where he is.....

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9 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

We finished mid table also-rans having endured one of the worst runs in our history. So what reason to think they were the personnel to push us on to greater heights given they failed to do so first time around and accepting they no longer had to perform to merit their employment?

Kalas in particular looks like a bloke going through the motions and would rather be anywhere than where he is.....

But at least he's posted on Instagram this week pictures of a new McLaren and Mercedes and had his old trainers repaired 🙃

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23 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

We finished mid table also-rans having endured one of the worst runs in our history. So what reason to think they were the personnel to push us on to greater heights given they failed to do so first time around and accepting they no longer had to perform to merit their employment?

Kalas in particular looks like a bloke going through the motions and would rather be anywhere than where he is.....

Why are you lying?

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1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

Or they currently just aren't as good as they were bigged up to be? 

"Coached out of them" is just a ridiculous throwaway comment to point another stick at LJ. LJ hasn't coached either of them to get bullied off the ball frequently in midfield battles. Simply put, bar a number of games you can count on one hand, they have not been good enough. 

And I am firmly of the opinion that we need to look for an upgrade on LJ if we don't get playoffs.

Well they looked decent enough in there first few appearances. 
 

Perhaps players find it difficult to adapt to constant changing of system, changing of personnel, roles, in the team, out of the team.
 

Then confidence becomes shot and we all know just how big a factor confidence is in football. 

for all the players who have supposedly improved under LJ, there are equally as many, if not more that you could argue have regressed under his “management”.

Edited by Kibs
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2 hours ago, Dottie said:

I’m not wanting to point a stick at LJ at all, I’m not particularly in the LJ in or out camp, I’m just commenting on what I’ve seen, players that were good at the beginning of the season now playing  poorly with no confidence. Fulham away was one of the best performances for a long time, lovely to watch against a good side, the midfield that day was Brownhill, Nagy, Massengo & Elliason, they were all outstanding. How do you explain what’s gone wrong with them?

 

30 minutes ago, Kibs said:

Well they looked decent enough in there first few appearances. 
 

Perhaps players find it difficult to adapt to constant changing of system, changing of personnel, roles, in the team, out of the team.
 

Then confidence becomes shot and we all know just how big a factor confidence is in football. 

for all the players who have supposedly improved under LJ, there are equally as many, if not more that you could argue have regressed under his “management”.

You've entirely missed my point though. A great performance against Fulham and another at home to Huddersfield doesn't make them outstanding championship players. Neither has the ability been "coached out of them" between those games and Millwall and Blackburn at home, where they became League 2 standard. Being an outstanding Championship player is about consistency rather than just being talented. The best players of this league deliver performance after performance, and we have not seen that from our midfielders so far this season. 

City fans this season seem to be obsessed with those two great wins against Fulham and Huddersfield where HNM and Nagy put in a good performance, but seem to conveniently ignore that LJ put them both out in the same system the next two matches against Millwall and Blackburn where they were the two worst performers on the pitch. Probably just another stick to try and beat LJ with. Since those games, I struggle to remember a good performance from either of them and therefore the "coached the ability out of them" analogy seems pretty devoid when in reality they more likely just had two good games. 

I do think Nagy could be a better player when returning from injury, but the jury will really be out then next season and we should have enough options in midfield to have to be relying on him. HNM does not currently look as good as bigged up to be when we signed him, and Walsh or Morrell would likely have performed considerably better in this team considering their form for their loan clubs. IMO we should be looking to loan out Massengo next season even if it is for just half a season as so far he looks like he might need it to reach his full potential.

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2 hours ago, SuperRed said:

I am getting the impression that Webster made Kalas look a lot better than he actually is. 

Webster didn’t play with him at Fulham or Middlesbrough where he was also fantastic

he’s had the quality coached out of him

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2 hours ago, marcofisher said:

"Coached out of them" is just a ridiculous throwaway comment to point another stick at LJ.

You can only be told you're not pulling your weight so many times until it sticks and won't get out.

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1 hour ago, Northern Red said:

Why are you lying?

We finished 8th and were lucky to do so. Also-rans.

Were it not for the back to back wins after QPR ( A) and Rotherham (H) we'd have been in deep doodoo. I think we had sequences of no win in 6 a couple of no win in 5s and another of 4 straight losses.

WeeLee it seems each year manages to pull out a sequence or two of extraordinary winning runs that disguise the otherwise dire string of results witnessed (particularly at home.)

 

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41 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

 

You've entirely missed my point though. A great performance against Fulham and another at home to Huddersfield doesn't make them outstanding championship players. Neither has the ability been "coached out of them" between those games and Millwall and Blackburn at home, where they became League 2 standard. Being an outstanding Championship player is about consistency rather than just being talented. The best players of this league deliver performance after performance, and we have not seen that from our midfielders so far this season. 

City fans this season seem to be obsessed with those two great wins against Fulham and Huddersfield where HNM and Nagy put in a good performance, but seem to conveniently ignore that LJ put them both out in the same system the next two matches against Millwall and Blackburn where they were the two worst performers on the pitch. Probably just another stick to try and beat LJ with. Since those games, I struggle to remember a good performance from either of them and therefore the "coached the ability out of them" analogy seems pretty devoid when in reality they more likely just had two good games. 

I do think Nagy could be a better player when returning from injury, but the jury will really be out then next season and we should have enough options in midfield to have to be relying on him. HNM does not currently look as good as bigged up to be when we signed him, and Walsh or Morrell would likely have performed considerably better in this team considering their form for their loan clubs. IMO we should be looking to loan out Massengo next season even if it is for just half a season as so far he looks like he might need it to reach his full potential.

No I don’t think so. Massengo and Nagy are both of the right calibre to play for us and be successful IMO. I agree they have underperformed, of course they have, but so have so many of our team. And that’s the point I’m making. 
 

Not many of our players have done themselves justice this season or performed at the level they are capable of. And I put that down to the way they and the team have been managed. Just my opinion though.

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28 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

We finished 8th and were lucky to do so. Also-rans.

Were it not for the back to back wins after QPR ( A) and Rotherham (H) we'd have been in deep doodoo. I think we had sequences of no win in 6 a couple of no win in 5s and another of 4 straight losses.

WeeLee it seems each year manages to pull out a sequence or two of extraordinary winning runs that disguise the otherwise dire string of results witnessed (particularly at home.)

 

We finished 4 points off the playoffs and were in with a (slim, admittedly) chance ight up until the last day.

Going by your logic if Liverpool hadn't won 18 straight games or whatever it is, they'd be fighing relegation from the PL about now.

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2 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

We finished 4 points off the playoffs and were in with a (slim, admittedly) chance ight up until the last day.

Going by your logic if Liverpool hadn't won 18 straight games or whatever it is, they'd be fighing relegation from the PL about now.

No. The play-offs are an artificial creation for teams that aren't good enough and we failed to even make those.

Your comparison with Liverpool is ridiculous but if you so wish the in respective leagues last season they won 30 (we 19), they drew 7 (we 13), they lost 1 (we 14.)

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