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Taylor Moore Class!


REDOXO

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15 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

We now have Benkovic as our lynchpin if the above scenario materializes. Sigh!

Moore was excellent early in the season to be constantly pulled off or dropped by LJ who now brings in Benkovic who he had a go at in the media last night as being poor. 
 

Does that not say something?
 

 

I think it does ..... LJ doesn’t know a good thing when he sees it.  

Not only is TM an excellent prospect, but he also has a great attitude to match.

Why he was shipped out baffles me and is yet another decision for me that calls LJ’s judgment into question.

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56 minutes ago, Roe said:

It was a weird move to shift him out and bring in another young player so far into the season. 

Only way it made sense is if we were 100% aiming for promotion (or at least a play off spot) this season and felt that the difference in quality would be important.  I think that was the aim but it's not looking a very smart trade in hindsight

Yep, hindsight.  Most of us were pretty happy with Benkovic after the Derby game!!  Recurring calf injury last night according to LJ.

Taylor Moore made a decent start to the season, and imho, proved (for the first real time) he can play at this level.  In an ideal world Kalas and Baker would’ve been first choice with Moore getting further opportunities to gain experience, either off the bench or replacing them when injured, etc.  As it happened he got plenty of game time, even though he often seemed to be a bit of an easy target for LJ when changing tactics.

40 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

He offered to work twice as long for the same money but then, having proved he was good enough at Championship level, was shipped down to L1 anyway. It looks like bad faith and bad judgement from the club.

It certainly surprised me, even though I heard it was linked to Vyner coming back.  Personally that looks a bit of non-logic to me!

22 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

The worst thing is, we loan Taylor and recall an injured Vyner. Work that one out. 

Taylor has performed better than Kalas and Williams, but LJ doesn't seem to rate him, hence the long in the making pursuit of Benkovic, ahead of Derby. Is Big Benk better? No.

We didn’t recall Vyner, Aberdeen sent him back (like Derby did with Pato).

19 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Firstly he is not Bobby Moore style - much as I would like this to be true.

Secondly while Ashley Williams has made mistakes (more recently after a very long run) he has been mostly brilliant and his interceptions and positioning have been mostly superb.

I understand we want home grown talent but if an ageing Williams were to be injured, Baker is mostly this way and Kalas has really struggled this year - would we really have wanted Taylor Moore as our lynchpin - he needs more time. He has shown flashes of brilliance but also messed up more times than people seem to want to recall - I think it was him giving the ball away so cheaply against QPR on the half way line that caused Nagy's original injury (may be wrong here).

While results are rubbish this decision stacks up.

In my opinion Moore has done himself a lot of favours in his appearances this season, but he still has a lot to learn on the defensive side of being a CB.  Don’t get me wrong, he has learned quite a bit, but he has some way to go.  On the ball, although competent, i do feel his ball-playing us overrated.  He’s better than Baker, but most are!  And I’m not comparing to Webster either. It is a fine line between advancing with the ball, and doing something effective with it, as opposed to advancing with the ball and driving into congestion, and then being out of position.

Personally, I’d like to have seen a Moore continue his development HERE during the second half of the season and get another good pre-season under his belt and kick-on again.

 

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4 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

I think it does ..... LJ doesn’t know a good thing when he sees it.  

Not only is TM an excellent prospect, but he also has a great attitude to match.

Why he was shipped out baffles me and is yet another decision for me that calls LJ’s judgment into question.

Ran out of likes. So I’ll just say it. I Agree

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Taylor Moore had a few questionable moments and was subsequently chucked out the side. It's what LJ does with young players.

For all his talk of wanting a settled squad he'd rather bring in a loan or a free in order to avoid sticking with a young player who needs a run of games. The squad is bloated and it's his fault.

Ashley Williams being brought in, Marinovic over O'Leary, Rodri over Semenyo, Henriksen over Massengo. Benkovic over Moore.

I'm beginning to wonder how much he really cares about the pathway. 

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9 minutes ago, Norn Iron said:

I know TM plus Liam Walsh and Joe Morrell have been loaned out until the end of the season but is there a clause whereby we can recall them  especially if we can send back the other 2 loanees? 

No - Can’t recall loans Norn until end of season now

 

 

FWiW I can Actually see the rationale of loaning TM out 

 

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1 hour ago, Roe said:

It was a weird move to shift him out and bring in another young player so far into the season. 

Only way it made sense is if we were 100% aiming for promotion (or at least a play off spot) this season and felt that the difference in quality would be important.  I think that was the aim but it's not looking a very smart trade in hindsight

IF that was the reason, it hasn't worked well for us. TM better than the loanee from Lesta!!

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2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

No - Can’t recall loans Norn until end of season now

 

Blast. I was going to tell Steve L that I'd take over the coaching and would bring the loanees back plus play them. I'll let Neil from Cornwall badger him instead.

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8 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Taylor Moore had a few questionable moments and was subsequently chucked out the side. It's what LJ does with young players.

For all his talk of wanting a settled squad he'd rather bring in a loan or a free in order to avoid sticking with a young player who needs a run of games. The squad is bloated and it's his fault.

Ashley Williams being brought in, Marinovic over O'Leary, Rodri over Semenyo, Henriksen over Massengo. Benkovic over Moore.

I'm beginning to wonder how much he really cares about the pathway. 

Right now he doesn’t care one jot. It’s about managing a promotion campaign that right now is fizzling out. Wells must be crest fallen to have to come to this shit show. 

1 minute ago, cidered abroad said:

IF that was the reason, it hasn't worked well for us. TM better than the loaned from Lesta!!

Unless Benkovic starts playing soon that will be the case. The pathway above would have been sacrificed on a name and a price tag. 

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1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

Yes. I agree with all this. But Benkovic so far has not been very good. And if LJ can publicly say so then it’s not a stretch for others.

Moore was shipped for Benkovic is of course true. As for highly regarded, if we not had an injury crisis in August any bid for Moore would have been accepted. The bloke had to halve his wages apparently to get a contract extension. 

I'm only repeating the gist of the gospel according to Mark Ashton at Senior Reds last Thursday regarding Taylor Moore.

Benkovic, to my untrained eye, has been disappointing to say the least, and not as good as Taylor Moore.

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21 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said:

I'm only repeating the gist of the gospel according to Mark Ashton at Senior Reds last Thursday regarding Taylor Moore.

Benkovic, to my untrained eye, has been disappointing to say the least, and not as good as Taylor Moore.

WOW. I am sure you are paraphrasing but that is one hell of slam to a few people. It sounds like MA is getting fed up with this if he alludes to that publicly. 

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58 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Right now he doesn’t care one jot. It’s about managing a promotion campaign that right now is fizzling out. Wells must be crest fallen to have to come to this shit show. 

Yeah and it's easy for me to bash short-termism when my job isn't on the line. 

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31 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

WOW. I am sure you are paraphrasing but that is one hell of slam to a few people. It sounds like MA is getting fed up with this if he alludes to that publicly. 

On the contrary, MA explained that this was how the club is/will operate. Those showing promise and needing regular games will go out on loan to either return and fight for a regular first team place, or be sold on for a profit. The proceeds invested in strengthening the first team.

Laudable in theory, but not proving to be the case it would seem, given how our "best squad ever" are performing.

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7 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Yeah and it's easy for me to bash short-termism when my job isn't on the line. 

It’s not bashing it. It’s just a fact. The bloke asked about LJ and the pathway. The answer is he couldn’t care a jot. It’s about the short term gain. However we have gained nothing so far in the short term. Let’s see  if we do? 

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2 hours ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

He has dropped a level and is playing every game so I would expect him to be performing well. Much like Morell, Walsh, Taylor etc. All performing very well in league one. Would they be able to play as well in a championship LJ team? No because its never consistent and this league is a big step up. 

Yes because that was the case for players such as Freeman, Cunningham, Robinson, Bryan and Reid who all ended up above this level.

Walsh and Morrell would be starting here with the current form of our centre midfielders.

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11 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said:

On the contrary, MA explained that this was how the club is/will operate. Those showing promise and needing regular games will go out on loan to either return and fight for a regular first team place, or be sold on for a profit. The proceeds invested in strengthening the first team.

Laudable in theory, but not proving to be the case it would seem, given how our "best squad ever" are performing.

I agree with him and you. 
 

However unless the guy improves dramatically quickly we have a player that is not as good (LJs comments were he had to get up to speed and was substituted at ht) as the one Blackpool have. 

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1 hour ago, Shtanley said:

Taylor Moore had a few questionable moments and was subsequently chucked out the side. It's what LJ does with young players.

For all his talk of wanting a settled squad he'd rather bring in a loan or a free in order to avoid sticking with a young player who needs a run of games. The squad is bloated and it's his fault.

Ashley Williams being brought in, Marinovic over O'Leary, Rodri over Semenyo, Henriksen over Massengo. Benkovic over Moore.

I'm beginning to wonder how much he really cares about the pathway. 

In fairness to LJ on this point 

I have to say , in his shoes , under pressure for results , I’m not sure I would tbh , or at least not in those selection moments

Playing Devils advocate

Is there many on here who would pick a young player over a senior player if you felt that you were less likely to pick up points 

Even Lloyd Kelly , the most promising we’ve had cost us points through inexperience - it’s a reality of young players learning

Quite simply , IMHO they have to be good enough or show the signs of imminently becoming so if you are going to play them - No freebie points at this level.

We are trying to ram a pathway into a plan whilst in a pretty brutal League

Ideally we would have commenced this plan years ago whilst in League One - and to a large degree we did out of necessity (And some decent talent) in Bobby , Joe etc but you wonder whether either would have had so many opportunities if they were coming through at 18/19 now , where we ciurrently sit

Like all fans there’s nothing better to see than a young player breaking through , but we can’t be playing players just because they are young

We have to actually decide what we are and what the realistic plan is 

Again in fairness to LJ , I felt that it was naive and unfair of SL or expect a top six , or improved finish if LJ was also expected to bring through young players at the same time 

I have to be fair that IMHO , in what I’ve seen of our younger choices I’m not sure I could criticise their amount of involvement

(My only thoughts of questionable decisions  would be I might have been tempted to bring Joe Morrell back , and play him , in January , and I found the use of Rodri off the bench above a chance to give Semenyo minutes, especially in games where we had the 3 points all but done,  baffling  )


Where Lee falls down IMHO is he firstly , he clearly jumped at the role and the ethos , but then sees that the realities of combining the pathway and promotion which he desperately craves for the Club , and himself 

Secondly he’s been allowed to divert from the pathway , (having the opinion that some of our younger choices arnt good enough , or at least ready ) and has been allowed to assemble a deep squad of established pros but is still not delivering at the top end.

I do think that if fans want top six finishes and a pathway , quite simply you have to have youngsters that are good enough
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Shtanley said:

Taylor Moore had a few questionable moments and was subsequently chucked out the side. It's what LJ does with young players.

For all his talk of wanting a settled squad he'd rather bring in a loan or a free in order to avoid sticking with a young player who needs a run of games. The squad is bloated and it's his fault.

Ashley Williams being brought in, Marinovic over O'Leary, Rodri over Semenyo, Henriksen over Massengo. Benkovic over Moore.

I'm beginning to wonder how much he really cares about the pathway. 

Good timing....just created a new post, just for you - “Player Development”

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9 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

In fairness to LJ on this point 

I have to say , in his shoes , under pressure for results , I’m not sure I would tbh , or at least not in those selection moments

Playing Devils advocate

Is there many on here who would pick a young player over a senior player if you felt that you were less likely to pick up points 

Even Lloyd Kelly , the most promising we’ve had cost us points through inexperience - it’s a reality of young players learning

Quite simply , IMHO they have to be good enough or show the signs of imminently becoming so if you are going to play them - No freebie points at this level.

We are trying to ram a pathway into a plan whilst in a pretty brutal League

Ideally we would have commenced this plan years ago whilst in League One - and to a large degree we did out of necessity (And some decent talent) in Bobby , Joe etc but you wonder whether either would have had so many opportunities if they were coming through at 18/19 now , where we ciurrently sit

Like all fans there’s nothing better to see than a young player breaking through , but we can’t be playing players just because they are young

We have to actually decide what we are and what the realistic plan is 

Again in fairness to LJ , I felt that it was naive and unfair of SL or expect a top six , or improved finish if LJ was also expected to bring through young players at the same time 

I have to be fair that IMHO , in what I’ve seen of our younger choices I’m not sure I could criticise their amount of involvement

(My only thoughts of questionable decisions  would be I might have been tempted to bring Joe Morrell back , and play him , in January , and I found the use of Rodri off the bench above a chance to give Semenyo minutes, especially in games where we had the 3 points all but done,  baffling  )


Where Lee falls down IMHO is he firstly , he clearly jumped at the role and the ethos , but then sees that the realities of combining the pathway and promotion which he desperately craves for the Club , and himself 

Secondly he’s been allowed to divert from the pathway , (having the opinion that some of our younger choices arnt good enough , or at least ready ) and has been allowed to assemble a deep squad of established pros but is still not delivering at the top end.

I do think that if fans want top six finishes and a pathway , quite simply you have to have youngsters that are good enough
 

 

 

The big worry is, with Cardiff and their Cat 1 Academy being so close, if we can’t show our best young players a decent pathway, you don’t have to think too hard where any good local talent goes, if they haven’t already been sapped up by Southampton.

That’s one of the pillars well and truly ******.

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1 hour ago, Shtanley said:

Taylor Moore had a few questionable moments and was subsequently chucked out the side. It's what LJ does with young players.

For all his talk of wanting a settled squad he'd rather bring in a loan or a free in order to avoid sticking with a young player who needs a run of games. The squad is bloated and it's his fault.

Ashley Williams being brought in, Marinovic over O'Leary, Rodri over Semenyo, Henriksen over Massengo. Benkovic over Moore.

I'm beginning to wonder how much he really cares about the pathway. 

this. why does lj have to get the toys out of the box before knowing if they are any good. the only 3 from January should have been wells as he was well up to speed with qpr.

the other 2 should have been on the bench and brought on for a run out or in case of an emergency.

 

as for taylor moore,he had the perfect mentor in Williams beside him, I don't get him going at all.

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13 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

In fairness to LJ on this point 

I have to say , in his shoes , under pressure for results , I’m not sure I would tbh , or at least not in those selection moments

Playing Devils advocate

Is there many on here who would pick a young player over a senior player if you felt that you were less likely to pick up points

playing devils advocate back, if you have multiple senior players, you never have to worry about picking the youngster!!! ?

Even Lloyd Kelly , the most promising we’ve had cost us points through inexperience - it’s a reality of young players learning

Quite simply , IMHO they have to be good enough or show the signs of imminently becoming so if you are going to play them - No freebie points at this level.

I think it’s the ones who have shown their capable, that are then being loaned out and thusavoiding the issue ☹️

We are trying to ram a pathway into a plan whilst in a pretty brutal League

Ideally we would have commenced this plan years ago whilst in League One - and to a large degree we did out of necessity (And some decent talent) in Bobby , Joe etc but you wonder whether either would have had so many opportunities if they were coming through at 18/19 now , where we ciurrently sit

Like all fans there’s nothing better to see than a young player breaking through , but we can’t be playing players just because they are young

We have to actually decide what we are and what the realistic plan is 

Again in fairness to LJ , I felt that it was naive and unfair of SL or expect a top six , or improved finish if LJ was also expected to bring through young players at the same time 

I have to be fair that IMHO , in what I’ve seen of our younger choices I’m not sure I could criticise their amount of involvement

(My only thoughts of questionable decisions  would be I might have been tempted to bring Joe Morrell back , and play him , in January , and I found the use of Rodri off the bench above a chance to give Semenyo minutes, especially in games where we had the 3 points all but done,  baffling  )


Where Lee falls down IMHO is he firstly , he clearly jumped at the role and the ethos , but then sees that the realities of combining the pathway and promotion which he desperately craves for the Club , and himself 

Secondly he’s been allowed to divert from the pathway , (having the opinion that some of our younger choices arnt good enough , or at least ready ) and has been allowed to assemble a deep squad of established pros but is still not delivering at the top end.

I do think that if fans want top six finishes and a pathway , quite simply you have to have youngsters that are good enough
 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

The big worry is, with Cardiff and their Cat 1 Academy being so close, if we can’t show our best young players a decent pathway, you don’t have to think too hard where any good local talent goes, if they haven’t already been sapped up by Southampton.

That’s one of the pillars well and truly ******.

It’s a difficult blend - Not sure Cat 1 guarantees you much more but it’s a fair point

My main thought is (IMHO) you can’t just ram a pathway into a first team / side operating at this level 

You have to have youngsters who are good enough , so it becomes a chicken & egg situation

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11 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

It’s a difficult blend - Not sure Cat 1 guarantees you much more but it’s a fair point

My main thought is (IMHO) you can’t just ram a pathway into a first team / side operating at this level 

You have to have youngsters who are good enough , so it becomes a chicken & egg situation

Isn’t it the case that Cat 1 can just cherry pick from Cat 2 though and there’s not much you can do about, other than just accept the compo?

I’m beginning to think LJ isn’t buying into this sustainability model anywhere near as much as we originally expected.  How many times have we seem a number of players having less than perfect games, but it always seems to be the young ones getting hooked, even though there are far worse older players left on the pitch.  

It’s one thing if a young player is having a total mare and then you’re saving them getting their confidence shattered, but I’ve lost count of the times it’s happened to TM and we’ve often looked worse when he’s gone off.

I think it’s a Johnson thing, as his dad seemed to avoid using young players unless there’s absolutely no other alternative left to him.

I know football’s changed, but we’ve got a precedent with using young, home grown talent and Alan Dicks used that brilliantly and we all know where that got us!

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2 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Isn’t it the case that Cat 1 can just cherry pick from Cat 2 though and there’s not much you can do about, other than just accept the compo?

I’m beginning to think LJ isn’t buying into this sustainability model anywhere near as much as we originally expected.  How many times have we seem a number of players having less than perfect games, but it always seems to be the young ones getting hooked, even though there are far worse older players left on the pitch.  

It’s one thing if a young player is having a total mare and then you’re saving them getting their confidence shattered, but I’ve lost count of the times it’s happened to TM and we’ve often looked worse when he’s gone off.

I think it’s a Johnson thing, as his dad seemed to avoid using young players unless there’s absolutely no other alternative left to him.

I know football’s changed, but we’ve got a precedent with using young, home grown talent and Alan Dicks used that brilliantly and we all know where that got us!

I don’t think for a moment he is Brizzle

However and I’ve got to stick up for him a bit , and be honest , as a Championship Manager , nor would I unless I had the suitable young players

One of our problems (IMHO) is we rarely put games to bed , ( and on the rare occasion we do or seem to (The latest example 3-0 up at home to Derby) we don’t secure it ) which minimises the opportunity to give a youngster 15-20 mins and integrate them that way .

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So has he 'found his level' in league one like last season when Southend fans pretty much said the same things as those Blackpool fans? ?

I was a bit shocked when he was loaned out but thought it was good move if Moore wasn't going to play with us this season much.

I think it's too early to say Benkovic isn't good enough. He seems to have very good attributes.

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@BobBobSuperBob Fully agree with your point, of course it's easy for me to call for more academy players/youngsters when it isn't my job that is on the line.

Main point I occasionally try to make is that our squad is far too big and any hint of a gap that could/should easily be plugged by a youngster for a game (even a bench spot ie. Baldwin 3rd choice CB for a couple of games) gets immediately overcompensated for. 

Morrell could've played more than 1 league game last season, Pack clearly needed a rest.

Could Morrell or Walsh have stuck around this season rather than signing Nagy AND Massengo?

Marinovic needn't have been signed over O'Leary (Almost insulting).

Playing Rodri off the bench over Semenyo (despite the club knowing Rodri was going and that Semenyo "needed help confidence-wise" according to LJ).

 

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5 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

@BobBobSuperBob Fully agree with your point, of course it's easy for me to call for more academy players/youngsters when it isn't my job that is on the line.

Main point I occasionally try to make is that our squad is far too big and any hint of a gap that could/should easily be plugged by a youngster for a game (even a bench spot ie. Baldwin 3rd choice CB for a couple of games) gets immediately overcompensated for. 

Morrell could've played more than 1 league game last season, Pack clearly needed a rest.

Could Morrell or Walsh have stuck around this season rather than signing Nagy AND Massengo?

Marinovic needn't have been signed over O'Leary (Almost insulting).

Playing Rodri off the bench over Semenyo (despite the club knowing Rodri was going and that Semenyo "needed help confidence-wise" according to LJ).

 

Agree with all these ?

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24 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I don’t think for a moment he is Brizzle

However and I’ve got to stick up for him a bit , and be honest , as a Championship Manager , nor would I unless I had the suitable young players

One of our problems (IMHO) is we rarely put games to bed , ( and on the rare occasion we do or seem to (The latest example 3-0 up at home to Derby) we don’t secure it ) which minimises the opportunity to give a youngster 15-20 mins and integrate them that way .

You’ve absolutely nailed it in your last paragraph Bob and is what really boils my piss.  This one of the reasons why I now want to see the back of LJ. He’s just so mega cautious.

We never hammer teams, because you can guarantee if we do get a comfortable lead and the opposition are on the ropes, instead of going for the kill, we then sit deep and invite them to put us under pressure, with the painfully familiar result.  We’ve got plenty of examples of us losing 3 goal leads for the same reason.  Our crap goal difference during his tenure is another good indicator.

So yes, what you say is completely true and when you put it that way, makes a lot of sense.  I think it’s also another very solid reason why LJ isn’t the man for the job in hand here if we want to bring our own talent through.  

If our young ones aren’t good enough on the other hand, we’ll never get anywhere near being sustainable.

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