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Badger08

At what point do the players have to take some responsibility?

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Just wanting to put another spin on things, as I think the LJ debate (which this will turn into anyway) has been done to death. 

On the way to work this morning, I listened to the "Robins on the wire" podcast and it had some clips from a press conference with LJ.  It was an interesting listen, as he (lj) basically agreed with what we the fan base are saying. 
This got me thinking, that you could literally be the best manager in the world, but if the players aren't interested, then surely there is only so much you can do.  I know people will say, well, that is up to the manager, but surely the players also need to step up and play to the best of their ability?  Is it fair that LJ gets all of the flack for the mistakes that the players themselves make?  I mean, it's not LJ that can't find a 5 yard pass.  Its not LJ that makes stupid individual mistakes. 

I fully understand that LJ picks the squad etc, but from LJs point of view, its now like he has much influence once they cross that white line.  Each individual has to push, want to play and create.  

I think the players are lucky that they have LJ as a shield at the moment.... 

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It’s impossible to say isn’t it. They’re clearly being told to play it out from the back which is inviting pressure and forcing them Into making mistakes, but at the same time, you’re right, of course they should be doing the (worldclass) basics better. 

The creating chances thing though, that’s got to be tactical, because with the quality we have, I’d expect them to create more chance if you told the eleven of them to just go and have a kick around without giving any tactics at all. 

Truth is, we won’t really know until someone else has a go. 

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The players have the responsibility of getting the basics right. The manager is responsible for selection formation and tactics. The Chairman selects the manager  

In short; everyone has a part to play and they win or lose as a team, so yes, the players are jointly responsible alongside LJ and SL. 

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33 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Just wanting to put another spin on things, as I think the LJ debate (which this will turn into anyway) has been done to death. 

On the way to work this morning, I listened to the "Robins on the wire" podcast and it had some clips from a press conference with LJ.  It was an interesting listen, as he (lj) basically agreed with what we the fan base are saying. 
This got me thinking, that you could literally be the best manager in the world, but if the players aren't interested, then surely there is only so much you can do.  I know people will say, well, that is up to the manager, but surely the players also need to step up and play to the best of their ability?  Is it fair that LJ gets all of the flack for the mistakes that the players themselves make?  I mean, it's not LJ that can't find a 5 yard pass.  Its not LJ that makes stupid individual mistakes. 

I fully understand that LJ picks the squad etc, but from LJs point of view, its now like he has much influence once they cross that white line.  Each individual has to push, want to play and create.  

I think the players are lucky that they have LJ as a shield at the moment.... 

More or less what Tommy Rowe said in his interview yesterday.

 

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It can't help players though surely if they have no idea what formation is going to be played every game. His man management skills as well are dreadful.

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1 minute ago, Super said:

It can't help players though surely if they have no idea what formation is going to be played every game. His man management skills as well are dreadful.

As Tommy Rowe said, they had a game plan for Huddersfield but failed to carry it out. You surely cannot believe that at any professional level players would have no idea of the formation ?

 

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4 minutes ago, Super said:

It can't help players though surely if they have no idea what formation is going to be played every game. His man management skills as well are dreadful.

That's thrown around a lot with zero context, and quite probably is a load of bollocks.  

As for the rest of your post, formation etc - this doesn't affect their ability to pass a ball 5 yards, or to keep tracking their runners etc.  It's the basic stuff we're getting wrong right now, and that's the stuff that shouldn't need coaching.

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I'm in a similar situation at work, where nobody had faith in the boss. However, everyone still gets on with their job and does it to the best of their ability. I know that you can't directly compare football and a normal job, but I always find this concept of the players 'not playing for the manager' very petulant. At the end of the day, it's their job to play football to the best of their ability and we've got a talented enough squad to play a lot better than they have done in last 3 matches. Especially against Huddersfield, it looked like they couldn't give a toss. 

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3 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

As Tommy Rowe said, they had a game plan for Huddersfield but failed to carry it out. You surely cannot believe that at any professional level players would have no idea of the formation ?

 

His team and formation were completely wrong just as they were against WBA. You aren't going to win many games if you are making bad decisions even before a ball is kicked.

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A lot of it comes down to bravery and confidence. The team on Tuesday had neither and it was a shocking performance. However, the margins are so fine that if we had nicked a goal early we would have probably seen a completely different performance. Saying that, you cannot have that viewpoint really as you could say ‘what ifs’ every game.

LJ will be calling for bravery on and off the ball.  Players need to want the ball and not hide and when on the ball they need to brave enough to play a pass instead of a safe long ball.  LJ will be right to call for that but he himself needs to be brave.  If he continues to pick Fam and Wells together then he will be making weak decisions. 

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5 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

That's thrown around a lot with zero context, and quite probably is a load of bollocks.  

As for the rest of your post, formation etc - this doesn't affect their ability to pass a ball 5 yards, or to keep tracking their runners etc.  It's the basic stuff we're getting wrong right now, and that's the stuff that shouldn't need coaching.

The basic stuff is the stuff the manager is getting wrong. I'm not saying the players are blame free but the buck stops with the manager.

Edited by Super

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3 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

As Tommy Rowe said, they had a game plan for Huddersfield but failed to carry it out. You surely cannot believe that at any professional level players would have no idea of the formation ?

 

But formation changed once again at half time, we seem to have had to make 2 subs and a formation change at half time in too many games this season - that says to me that initial tactics/set up were wrong to start with and that's not good.

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6 minutes ago, Redstart said:

But formation changed once again at half time, we seem to have had to make 2 subs and a formation change at half time in too many games this season - that says to me that initial tactics/set up were wrong to start with and that's not good.

If LJ does get sacked he will surely look back and regret so many formation changes.  I can’t believe he will look at how consistent the formation of the current top 6 is and not have regrets 

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22 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

More or less what Tommy Rowe said in his interview yesterday.

 

Oh, I haven't heard that.  Is it on the official site? 

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1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

Just wanting to put another spin on things, as I think the LJ debate (which this will turn into anyway) has been done to death. 

On the way to work this morning, I listened to the "Robins on the wire" podcast and it had some clips from a press conference with LJ.  It was an interesting listen, as he (lj) basically agreed with what we the fan base are saying. 
This got me thinking, that you could literally be the best manager in the world, but if the players aren't interested, then surely there is only so much you can do.  I know people will say, well, that is up to the manager, but surely the players also need to step up and play to the best of their ability?  Is it fair that LJ gets all of the flack for the mistakes that the players themselves make?  I mean, it's not LJ that can't find a 5 yard pass.  Its not LJ that makes stupid individual mistakes. 

I fully understand that LJ picks the squad etc, but from LJs point of view, its now like he has much influence once they cross that white line.  Each individual has to push, want to play and create.  

I think the players are lucky that they have LJ as a shield at the moment.... 

Have you been in a environment in sport where you doubt the abilities of yourself, those around you and what you are being instructed to do?

it takes an exceptional human being to not be affected by one or all three.

Lee Johnson is not a shield. He publicly criticises players. No psychologist would suggest that as a beneficial path to develop trust.

ONE player in a team can lack responsibility but what is occurring s multiple players are under performing. Some players look scared of the ball... Why?

A team is a reflection of its Manager and his ideas, values etc.

 

Edited by Cowshed
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I was under the impression that we have a defined style of play from the 1st team to the academy ,so every player knew their role and could fit in seamlessly.

This is clearly rubbish and it is not a surprise that players get caught in 2 minds and as a result don't always do the basics well.

LJ is guilty of trying to be too clever ,individual errors will always happen but in this particular instance the players have my sympathy.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Bas's perfect hattrick said:

I'm in a similar situation at work, where nobody had faith in the boss. However, everyone still gets on with their job and does it to the best of their ability. I know that you can't directly compare football and a normal job, but I always find this concept of the players 'not playing for the manager' very petulant. At the end of the day, it's their job to play football to the best of their ability and we've got a talented enough squad to play a lot better than they have done in last 3 matches. Especially against Huddersfield, it looked like they couldn't give a toss. 

Like you I have been in a similar situation, and I would agree it’s down to the individual to perform.

However if the leadership is lacking the drive, cohesion or ability to take things forward and the employees sense this it’s bound to have a detrimental effect on performance. I know my performance suffered, there does come a point where you think ‘this is not right’ and as an individual you need to make a decision wether to go along with things or get out (I chose to leave).

 

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5 minutes ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

I was under the impression that we have a defined style of play from the 1st team to the academy ,so every player knew their role and could fit in seamlessly.

I've got to say, you can't argue with this! 

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1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

Just wanting to put another spin on things, as I think the LJ debate (which this will turn into anyway) has been done to death. 

On the way to work this morning, I listened to the "Robins on the wire" podcast and it had some clips from a press conference with LJ.  It was an interesting listen, as he (lj) basically agreed with what we the fan base are saying. 
This got me thinking, that you could literally be the best manager in the world, but if the players aren't interested, then surely there is only so much you can do.  I know people will say, well, that is up to the manager, but surely the players also need to step up and play to the best of their ability?  Is it fair that LJ gets all of the flack for the mistakes that the players themselves make?  I mean, it's not LJ that can't find a 5 yard pass.  Its not LJ that makes stupid individual mistakes. 

I fully understand that LJ picks the squad etc, but from LJs point of view, its now like he has much influence once they cross that white line.  Each individual has to push, want to play and create.  

I think the players are lucky that they have LJ as a shield at the moment.... 

Buck always stops with the manager. If they arent performing, its his fault. He signs them, trains them and picks them.. When they are performing, he gets the credit.

They are out of form and its up to him to find a way of turning it round. And i actually think he will

 

Edited by Riaz

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25 minutes ago, Redstart said:

But formation changed once again at half time, we seem to have had to make 2 subs and a formation change at half time in too many games this season - that says to me that initial tactics/set up were wrong to start with and that's not good.

Or, the players failed to implement the game plan.

Your choice/opinion.

For me, its 50/50.

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So we’ve tried the busy bees, we’ve tried the trusted ones, we’ve tried the tall ones, we’ve tried the physical ones.

Lets try the ones with the most football intelligence, and just tell them to go and play their natural game. Play on instinct. Play the way that made them the players they are.

Im at a loss otherwise!

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1 minute ago, bcfc01 said:

Or, the players failed to implement the game plan.

Your choice/opinion.

For me, its 50/50.

Yep fair point - but this has become a more common excuse now, what if they don't understand the game plan or are actually struggling to implement it or actually have not really bought into it - my opinion is if you keep chopping and changing team selections and game plans constantly then it's not a surprise to me that we keep seeing a shambles performance on the pitch.

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44 minutes ago, Super said:

It can't help players though surely if they have no idea what formation is going to be played every game. His man management skills as well are dreadful.

Are they dreadful?   How do you know that?        :dunno:

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30 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Oh, I haven't heard that.  Is it on the official site? 

There’s already a thread going on the interview 

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42 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

As Tommy Rowe said, they had a game plan for Huddersfield but failed to carry it out. You surely cannot believe that at any professional level players would have no idea of the formation ?

 

There’s knowledge of formation then there’s understanding of your teammates game . 
 

If the team keeps chopping and changing and the formation keeps chopping and changing we are never going to see teamwork. 
 

What we have is a collection of individuals who sometimes win with a moment of individual skill or sometimes lose by  through individual mistakes.

We do not have a team. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

What we have is a collection of individuals who sometimes win with a moment of individual skill or sometimes lose by  through individual mistakes.

We do not have a team. 

Does this mean we should form a new forum called NTIB?

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7 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

There’s knowledge of formation then there’s understanding of your teammates game . 
 

If the team keeps chopping and changing and the formation keeps chopping and changing we are never going to see teamwork. 
 

What we have is a collection of individuals who sometimes win with a moment of individual skill or sometimes lose by  through individual mistakes.

We do not have a team. 

 

Another good point.  

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26 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Or, the players failed to implement the game plan.

Your choice/opinion.

For me, its 50/50.

It really isn't 50/50. Like I said if you go into a game with the wrong team and formation you won't win many games.

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27 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Buck always stops with the manager. If they arent performing, its his fault. He signs them, trains them and picks them.. When they are performing, he gets the credit.

They are out of form and its up to him to find a way of turning it round. And i actually think he will

 

Not from a lot of people here.  To many here, the players get the credit for a win and LJ gets the blame for a defeat.  For many, sadly, it's personal.

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4 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

Not from a lot of people here.  To many here, the players get the credit for a win and LJ gets the blame for a defeat.  For many, sadly, it's personal.

But what you describe is EXACTLY how LJ is in his press conferences

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Players are to blame for not performing to their personal standards.

They can't be blamed for being rusty, confused by formation, not having formed partnerships, being well-drilled. 

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1 hour ago, Super said:

It can't help players though surely if they have no idea what formation is going to be played every game. His man management skills as well are dreadful.

Apparently Taylor  Moore knocked on LJs door a while back asking to play and wanting to be captain. Surely that shows player commitment.  What happens? LJ then ships him out on loan. Is that good man management skills.? Of course it isn't. Tha lad was playing well enough to be in this squad.

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47 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So we’ve tried the busy bees, we’ve tried the trusted ones, we’ve tried the tall ones, we’ve tried the physical ones.

Lets try the ones with the most football intelligence, and just tell them to go and play their natural game. Play on instinct. Play the way that made them the players they are.

Im at a loss otherwise!

I think you’re right. I’m absolutely convinced LJ will give his last role of the dice to Kasey Palmer tomorrow. 

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50 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Are they dreadful?   How do you know that?        :dunno:

- He calls players out too often in interviews when things go wrong.

- All to often, if a player has one or two bad games, they seem to disappear for weeks.

- He often takes credit for things when they go well e.g - "I told him to do that in training and now its paid off" Just give the player full credit.

I haven't gone into what ex players have said because I always believe there are two sides to every story but there's not usually smoke without fire. I would say all of the above are bad management traits, and if that's how it is in public, it's difficult to imagine it will be any different behind closed doors.

Just my opinion on why his man management leaves a lot to be desired......

Edited by Kibs
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3 minutes ago, Kibs said:

- He calls players out too often in interviews when things go wrong.

- All to often, if a player has one or two bad games, they seem to disappear for weeks.

- He often takes credit for things when they go well e.g - "I told him to do that in training and now its paid off" Just give the player full credit.

I haven't gone into what ex players have said because I always believe there are two sides to every story but there's not usually smoke without fire. I would say all of the above are bad management traits, and if that's how it is in public, it's difficult to imagine it will be any different behind closed doors.

Just my opinion on why his man management leaves a lot to be desired......

Just like his father then.................:cool2:

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1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Just like his father then.................:cool2:

Let it go....

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I posted this in the LJ post match thread the other day

In some ways I can understand LJ's frustration, you have players who are internationals, with prem experienced or atleast a lot of championship experience and paid 20-30K per week and they can't even do some of the simple things, like pass the ball with pace to a teammate, run into a space to receive the ball, close down or track the opposition or even make the required effort, some of those so called professionals performance last night was a disgrace. Whilst you can rightly question selection (many on here were very happy prior to the game) or tactics / style of play, these top level professional athletes should be able to do the basics well without instruction and a large amount of blame and questions should be put on their shoulders.

Whilst I agree with some of the LJ comments about team selection, tactics and the lack of quality football, I do find it amusing the level of abuse that some on here give LJ and that it is his fault fullstop, and the players are without blame, the same posters then go on another thread and give players a score of 1, 2 or 3. This is not schoolboys or under 7's we are talking about but footballers who are at the top of their profession and should be doing some things much better than there are, when they start performing and do the basics well and cutting out schoolboy errors then you can lay the full blame on the coach

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2 minutes ago, Super said:

Let it go....

Nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious Super.

They are alike in many ways. Serving up dreary football, and according to you calling players out - just like his father did. Taking the credit for a win and blaming the players for a defeat - just like his father did.

The difference is that LJ thinks far more deeply about the game than his father ever did,

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At every point. No excuses.

 

It is for the senior players then to take up what they think is going wrong with the management.

That assumes there isn’t a culture of fear or a petulant child in management who, when criticised, will blank or transfer out any perceived disruptive influences. The players though, have to accept that, ultimately, a manager has the final decision. There has to be open and honest communication up the line to CEO/owner for that system to work. 

If it doesn’t work  then you get a down tools/anarchy outcome. Seemed to have that under Tomlin. Indications possibly of a repeat? LJs lost one of his major dressing room backers one suspects in Brownhill. Increasing looking like he’s reliant on Smith, possibly Bents and Rowe, as his ‘influencers’. Think they may be a minority now though.

Struth, had enough of this at work. Frankly, if divisive ‘politics’ are entering my football club they can all go to hell in a hand cart as far as Im concerned. Be gone and start afresh. 

 

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3 minutes ago, RedRock said:

At every point. No excuses.

 

It is for the senior players then to take up what they think is going wrong with the management.

That assumes there isn’t a culture of fear or a petulant child in management who, when criticised, will blank or transfer out any perceived disruptive influences. The players though, have to accept that, ultimately, a manager has the final decision. There has to be open and honest communication up the line to CEO/owner for that system to work. 

If it doesn’t work  then you get a down tools/anarchy outcome. Seemed to have that under Tomlin. Indications possibly of a repeat? LJs lost one of his major dressing room backers one suspects in Brownhill. Increasing looking like he’s reliant on Smith, possibly Bents and Rowe, as his ‘influencers’. Think they may be a minority now though.

Struth, had enough of this at work. Frankly, if divisive ‘politics’ are entering my football club they can all go to hell in a hand cart as far as Im concerned. Be gone and start afresh. 

 

😂😂😂😂

Can you imagine LJ taking feedback from the players? I can’t think of anything less likely!

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The players seem to have escaped a lot of the flak for Tuesday, which I find extraordinary.

Players practise formations plus they need to be adaptable in the modern game. 

Get on with it. Show some fight, football intelligence and nous.

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2 hours ago, Badger08 said:

Just wanting to put another spin on things, as I think the LJ debate (which this will turn into anyway) has been done to death. 

On the way to work this morning, I listened to the "Robins on the wire" podcast and it had some clips from a press conference with LJ.  It was an interesting listen, as he (lj) basically agreed with what we the fan base are saying. 
This got me thinking, that you could literally be the best manager in the world, but if the players aren't interested, then surely there is only so much you can do.  I know people will say, well, that is up to the manager, but surely the players also need to step up and play to the best of their ability?  Is it fair that LJ gets all of the flack for the mistakes that the players themselves make?  I mean, it's not LJ that can't find a 5 yard pass.  Its not LJ that makes stupid individual mistakes. 

I fully understand that LJ picks the squad etc, but from LJs point of view, its now like he has much influence once they cross that white line.  Each individual has to push, want to play and create.  

I think the players are lucky that they have LJ as a shield at the moment.... 

I agree that the players have to take a share of the responsibility as they are the ones not performing in the pitch. 

However there are too many mitigating factors for me that push the problem back onto LJ, the constant changes in personel, formation and playing style. Name me another club in the top 10 of any league that has made as many changes in this area as we have? 

To be successful there has to be continuity, look at Leeds, and the other sides at the top, they have a defined system and style and that doesnt change because a game is lost, we throw everything in the bin as soon as something goes wrong, and then wonder why the players fail to do the basics. 

In many ways it is a testament to how well we have done that despite all of this we are still 7th, but for me that just confirms the thinking of people like Fordy that we are flat track bullies, and the crap teams we beat because our players are so much better, but when we face teams with players of comparable or only slightly lesser ability we struggle. 

All but the very vert best managers have a shelf life, and I think we have reached the point where Johnsons ideas, and motivation is just going in one ear and out of the other so to speak. 

If he is to stay beyond this summer we need a massive clear out and to almost build a new squad that are going to take Johnsons ideas and run with them. 

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I think, from the players perspective, they should be doing more..... doing the basics well, taking responsibility.  
 

however, putting myself in their shoes/luminous orange boots.... what basics? The basics of a 442? 3 at the back? 3 up top? 1 up top? the formation changes regularly and presumably the message around what the basics are will change. The basics of being able to pass, shoot, head etc don’t change but the expectations of your role and those around you will. Will this increase or decrease you confidence (and therefore performance)? 
 

however experienced you are, knowing your job is on the line (we’ll place in the team) week in week out us not helpful. I’d suggest with each game at least half our starting eleven must think their no more than 50/50 to start the following week. Not good for confidence. 

For me, the manager needs to get back to basics first, straightforward formation and consistent team selection.... then we can judge the players. That might mean tough decisions. The tombola style selection isn’t showing any of the players at their best. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, Super said:

The basic stuff is the stuff the manager is getting wrong. I'm not saying the players are blame free but the buck stops with the manager.

You could equally argue that it is basic stuff on the pitch - simple passes to one of our players, making tackles, marking your man - that the players are getting wrong.

Over LJ's time here, as no one needs telling, we've gone through a few horrendous runs of form and results, but have also gone on crazy runs of good form and amazing results. In the bad times quite understandably, and especially from his biggest detractors,  LJ has come in for criticism and questions  about his man management and losing the dressing room.

What I am baffled by ( among many things!) is if his man management is so poor and he loses the dressing room, then why, after a poor run of form results,  are the same group of players able to turn things around and often so spectacularly? In my experience, when the wheels come off due to poor management they usually come off completely and while managers can pull things around once after a really bad run, rarely can they keep doing it as often and with such regularity as does LJ.

LJ really  is an enigma, in that he has undoubted ability, but there is obviously a weakness there to cause us to perform the way we do and have for 4 years.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Are they dreadful?   How do you know that?        :dunno:

Obviously you were not in management RR.............1st Rule. Dont PUBLICLY criticise an individual, thats the thing that p*sses me off with LJ and what WE have publicly seen. Surely even you cannot argue against that !!

Edited by oldstandrobin
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