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Badger08

At what point do the players have to take some responsibility?

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8 minutes ago, oldstandrobin said:

Obviously you were not in management RR.............1st Rule. Dont PUBLICLY criticise an individual, thats the thing that p*sses me off with LJ and what WE have publicly seen. Surely even you cannot argue against that !!

I was a senior nurse and that involved managing others and any criticism was on a one to one basis. 

As I posted earlier in this thread LJ is becoming more and more like his father. Crap football, calling players out and taking credit for a victory and blaming the players for a loss. He just thinks more deeply about the game - that’s the only difference.

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35 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

The players seem to have escaped a lot of the flak for Tuesday, which I find extraordinary.

Players practise formations plus they need to be adaptable in the modern game. 

Get on with it. Show some fight, football intelligence and nous.

The players play to instructions.  They are coached to play cautiously.  They are told how to play and therefore cannot use their flair and instinct. They are constantly looking to the bench rather than taking their own responsibility. The buck stops with LJ.

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3 minutes ago, marmite said:

The players play to instructions.  They are coached to play cautiously.  They are told how to play and therefore cannot use their flair and instinct. They are constantly looking to the bench rather than taking their own responsibility. The buck stops with LJ.

Just to flip that. When we went on our unbeaten run, conceding the least goals or whatever it was for 40 years, was the the player or LJ?

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3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I was a senior nurse and that involved managing others and any criticism was on a one to one basis. 

As I posted earlier in this thread LJ is becoming more and more like his father. Crap football, calling players out and taking credit for a victory and blaming the players for a loss. He just thinks more deeply about the game - that’s the only difference.

RR, exactly, I was commissioned in the Royal; Air Force after being in the ranks so saw both sides. One thing we were taught and were hammered home on was not to humiliate a lower rank publicly or in front of others. LJ would do well abiding by that as even footballers have feelings !! Agree with you about LJ's passion and thinking about the game but I fear he is losing it now and it's time for a change. 

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2 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Just to flip that. When we went on our unbeaten run, conceding the least goals or whatever it was for 40 years, was the the player or LJ?

We played a complete different style then and yes, credit to LJ for that. But watch when we get a free kick or corner. The first look is to the bench for instructions. Surely if you see a player in space you dont need permission to pass to him.

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In my opinion LJ has become a noticeably more cautious coach, particularly at home.

Take out the Leeds and WBA's of this league as a cautious approach makes a degree of sense, we don't start at 100 miles an hour and try and impose ourselves on the opposition from minute one at home - we play like the away team.

It is something that I don't get, I think we have a pretty strong squad yet we play it too safely, boring even, and that is one of the reasons for the unrest on here.

It won't take long for that to spread to the majority of the fan base if we slip out of contention playing how we currently are.

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2 minutes ago, marmite said:

We played a complete different style then and yes, credit to LJ for that. But watch when we get a free kick or corner. The first look is to the bench for instructions. Surely if you see a player in space you dont need permission to pass to him.

I've not noticed that to be fair.  I'll keep an eye out.  

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2 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

In my opinion LJ has become a noticeably more cautious coach, particularly at home.

Take out the Leeds and WBA's of this league as a cautious approach makes a degree of sense, we don't start at 100 miles an hour and try and impose ourselves on the opposition from minute one at home - we play like the away team.

It is something that I don't get, I think we have a pretty strong squad yet we play it too safely, boring even, and that is one of the reasons for the unrest on here.

It won't take long for that to spread to the majority of the fan base if we slip out of contention playing how we currently are.

I'm still a LJ supporter, although Huddersfield made me have a think.  I've seen some of the best football that I've ever seen us play under LJ,  but that Huddersfield game was unacceptable in my opinion. 

The main issue I have is that we are no longer playing the football that I was enjoying so much.  I can deal with that if we are getting the results, be at the moment I see us setting up not to concede rather than us to play our own game that saw such success against Manchester United etc.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

I'm still a LJ supporter, although Huddersfield made me have a think.  I've seen some of the best football that I've ever seen us play under LJ,  but that Huddersfield game was unacceptable in my opinion. 

The main issue I have is that we are no longer playing the football that I was enjoying so much.  I can deal with that if we are getting the results, be at the moment I see us setting up not to concede rather than us to play our own game that saw such success against Manchester United etc.  

 

Up until the 'crash' in form we did play exciting football that season and it brought results. The comparison from then to now, with what I believe is a much stronger squad, is stark and supports my original point.

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Brief story about managers and the people who work (or play) for them.

I sent one bloke out to Germany to do a job for us - and he totally ballsed it up. Turns out his CV had exaggerated his competence in various ways, and he didn't reach out for help when he was struggling.

The episode cost us money and goodwill, but ultimately it was my fault not his. I hadn't fully checked his competences, I hadn't followed up references, I let him run the project without HQ supervision because I'd assumed he was competent and didn't check things were running smoothly at an early stage.

You learn, you put stuff right, you move on, you schmooze the client.

But ultimately this is the case with any manager, be they in football or technology or wherever: the buck stops with you. If people aren't performing, it's up to you to find out why and try and make them perform better or get in people who can.

Too easy to blame other people. If you give the orders, you own the results.

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You may have the world's best or worst manager at the place YOU work at. Regardless of this do you just turn up and get paid or do you go in and do your best for the company?

Regardless of your answer, it's the same with players.

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11 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Brief story about managers and the people who work (or play) for them.

I sent one bloke out to Germany to do a job for us - and he totally ballsed it up. Turns out his CV had exaggerated his competence in various ways, and he didn't reach out for help when he was struggling.

The episode cost us money and goodwill, but ultimately it was my fault not his. I hadn't fully checked his competences, I hadn't followed up references, I let him run the project without HQ supervision because I'd assumed he was competent and didn't check things were running smoothly at an early stage.

You learn, you put stuff right, you move on, you schmooze the client.

But ultimately this is the case with any manager, be they in football or technology or wherever: the buck stops with you. If people aren't performing, it's up to you to find out why and try and make them perform better or get in people who can.

Too easy to blame other people. If you give the orders, you own the results.

Completely get your point here and makes sense. But there is also an element of blame on this chaps fault for ballsing it up and not asking for help. You as a manager can do so much but you shouldn't need to micro manage people (unless they lie on their CV). You train/coach and send your people out to do a job correctly and in the right way - you expect a certain standard from them. If they don't perform then you either give them more training or fire them.

I beleive the players definately have to take responsibility for what happens on the pitch especially when it comes to them not even being able to get simple passes right. It's been amateurish at times recently.

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3 hours ago, Super said:

It can't help players though surely if they have no idea what formation is going to be played every game. His man management skills as well are dreadful.

They do though, don’t they.

They train each week as a group for the upcoming game. I don’t think Johnson rocks up on a Saturday morning and says “right lads, I’ve been thinking and we’re going 2-7-1 today.” 

He will prepare for each fixture in the way that he thinks is best. Rightly or wrongly this isn’t always in the same starting ‘shape’. But good grief, these are high level professional athletes. If they’re not capable of adapting tactically then they’re in the wrong job. And let’s not pretend that we’re the only club in the land that varies their tactical approach depending on the game.

Ultimately it’s always going to be the manager copping the flack, it’s his squad, his tactics etc. If they’re not executing what he’s coaching then he’s being let down but ultimately it’s his remit to manage that situation and improve it.

Edited by BRISTOL86

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15 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Too easy to blame other people. If you give the orders, you own the results.

It is easy to blame others but football managers can coach, train, instruct, select the team and formation and sent his team out - but too many of them don’t apply the managers plans. That’s what happened in the first 45 at Huddersfield.........

So.......is that LJs fault or the fault of the players who failed to do as instructed?

 
Just asking................:dunno:

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Johnson’s game has always been avoidance, as a manager his team wins it’s down to him, lose and they are not playing right or the grass is wrong length or anything  out of his control.

 As a player stay tight to the opposition when your side is attacking and get yourself maximum space when you should be defending, just avoid the ball at all costs

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6 minutes ago, dave36 said:

As a player stay tight to the opposition when your side is attacking and get yourself maximum space when you should be defending, just avoid the ball at all costs

What a load of absolute nonsense that is. 

Edited by BRISTOL86
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Whilst anyone should perform their job to the best of their ability it is the manager who is accountable for the teams performance.

If they aren’t performing then that’s the managers problem to solve.

To coin a phrase you either change the people or you change the people.

 

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Managing a footbal club is like managing any group of people in any industry. In modern speak nobody talks about managers anymore, the new term is leaders.

When you gather a team of people with a leader, certain dynamics occur. Within the base team, influencers and followers develop and the influencers gather followers to their way of thinking.

This is human nature and is a completely established group behaviour.

If the group is left to its own devices, the result will drift to reflect the agenda of the most powerful influencer within the team.

So what does a good general manager/ group leader or head coach do?.

Firstly he understands his groups learning who are the influencers and followers and then learns who is positive and who is negative.

He then creates a method of leadership that inspires and rewards the positive influencers and followers.He creates a clear message and ethos that he himself follows 100%

His team becomes the popular one and the one you want to be in. The power of the negative influencers falls back and they become the moaners and occupy the lowest status in the group.

This is all great when things are going well. When things are not going well this leader needs to have the strength to gather and consult with the influencers within the team. Establish what is going wrong and seek their support to get the new approach out to the team and make it work.

If the leader takes the other approach sticking rigidly to his original ideas and blaming others he will lose the team.

The negative influencers will rise to the top and their group will grow.

It takes an incredible leader to come back from that.

If you take a player like John Terrey

If he is with the coach, great, you could not get a better wing man. If he falls out with the coach it is 100% different.

Yes our players are well paid and they should give their all every week.

But human nature is very powerful and if they don't understand or believe in the plan they wil react in a way relative to their nature.

Some will get frustrated and shout to the team Jay DeSilva when ever there is no pass on,  some will go into their shell and just try to do nothing wrong O'Dowda

Others will just play their way so that in their head they can say I did my best like Baker.

Why do teams need leaders? Because without a leader they are not a team

 

 

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Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but wouldn't the captain be responsible for imparting the manager's instructions on the pitch? Perhaps the skipper and some trusted lieutenants should be banging heads, or encouraging teammates regarding passing, movement and team shape throughout the game. The buck stops with the coach, but would he delegate tasks to certain individuals as well as the captain?

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As soon as they put pen to paper they are fully responsible for their performance. 

Obviously you could caveat a little if circumstances mean they have to play out of position for a time, or maybe play on through an injury. But even then, that would only be in being caught out as it's not true position or not up to speed due to the injury. And OK, personal circumstances can impact performances, but how many more excuses should they have in not being able to make a simple pass.

Whatever you think of the manager there have been some truly dreadful performances and totally inexcusable (if not due to the above.) As the original poster said, looking up and having the simplest of passes intercepted or hit the opposing player because it's not been executed properly has happened so many times recently it's ridiculous. Where the manager needs to be tougher in these circumstances though is hauling them off quicker. 

Sometimes it doesn't appear to matter how badly someone looks to be playing. They are straight in the starting line up next game. 

Overall, LJ is undoubtedly struggling to find the right team for any match which is worrying but it doesn't help when at times, like against West Brom, your best defender on the pitch is your striker. It was comedy watching Diedhiou in that patch making clearance after clearance. 

I know it would seem idealistic but you would hope that if players had lost interest they would be busting a gut week in week out to get a decent move. We've made it clear enough that if you play well enough and a decent offer comes in we are open to it. 

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1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

They do though, don’t they.

They train each week as a group for the upcoming game. I don’t think Johnson rocks up on a Saturday morning and says “right lads, I’ve been thinking and we’re going 2-7-1 today.” 

He will prepare for each fixture in the way that he thinks is best. Rightly or wrongly this isn’t always in the same starting ‘shape’. But good grief, these are high level professional athletes. If they’re not capable of adapting tactically then they’re in the wrong job. And let’s not pretend that we’re the only club in the land that varies their tactical approach depending on the game.

Ultimately it’s always going to be the manager copping the flack, it’s his squad, his tactics etc. If they’re not executing what he’s coaching then he’s being let down but ultimately it’s his remit to manage that situation and improve it.

If i'm honest I don't think he has a clue at all at the moment.

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5 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

It’s impossible to say isn’t it. They’re clearly being told to play it out from the back which is inviting pressure and forcing them Into making mistakes, but at the same time, you’re right, of course they should be doing the (worldclass) basics better. 

The creating chances thing though, that’s got to be tactical, because with the quality we have, I’d expect them to create more chance if you told the eleven of them to just go and have a kick around without giving any tactics at all. 

Truth is, we won’t really know until someone else has a go. 

Questionable- stats don't indicate a philosophy or a mindset consistent with this.

Playing out from the back isn't terribly suitable in many of the ways LJ likes to setup the team- think we'd be better served with an extra man in midfield, CM- by which I don't mean Paterson, Palmer or O'Dowda.

What LJ is giving us in this respect, seems like the worst of all worlds- he is encouraging us to play out from the back in a setup not terribly well suited to it!

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2 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

They do though, don’t they.

They train each week as a group for the upcoming game. I don’t think Johnson rocks up on a Saturday morning and says “right lads, I’ve been thinking and we’re going 2-7-1 today.” 

He will prepare for each fixture in the way that he thinks is best. Rightly or wrongly this isn’t always in the same starting ‘shape’. But good grief, these are high level professional athletes. If they’re not capable of adapting tactically then they’re in the wrong job. And let’s not pretend that we’re the only club in the land that varies their tactical approach depending on the game.

Ultimately it’s always going to be the manager copping the flack, it’s his squad, his tactics etc. If they’re not executing what he’s coaching then he’s being let down but ultimately it’s his remit to manage that situation and improve it.

A teams tactics should always reflect the technical ability of the team. If a player cannot adopt tactically he is not in the wrong job, he is in the wrong role or team.

Teams do vary their approach. How many teams this season in the championship have played seven formations? 

Bristol Citys players are not top level. Mr Johnson methodology goes against norms of top level coaches.

There is a clear link between consistency of approach and responsibility as there is between confidence, consistency and error.

 

Edited by Cowshed
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2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Brief story about managers and the people who work (or play) for them.

I sent one bloke out to Germany to do a job for us - and he totally ballsed it up. Turns out his CV had exaggerated his competence in various ways, and he didn't reach out for help when he was struggling.

The episode cost us money and goodwill, but ultimately it was my fault not his. I hadn't fully checked his competences, I hadn't followed up references, I let him run the project without HQ supervision because I'd assumed he was competent and didn't check things were running smoothly at an early stage.

You learn, you put stuff right, you move on, you schmooze the client.

But ultimately this is the case with any manager, be they in football or technology or wherever: the buck stops with you. If people aren't performing, it's up to you to find out why and try and make them perform better or get in people who can.

Too easy to blame other people. If you give the orders, you own the results.

As there had been an element of fraud involved in how the guy represented his experience and capabilities to me, he didn't work for me ever again.

Nonetheless, the ultimate responsibility lay with me. I didn't, as I think Gary Johnson used to say, "kick the tyres".

 

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

It is easy to blame others but football managers can coach, train, instruct, select the team and formation and sent his team out - but too many of them don’t apply the managers plans. That’s what happened in the first 45 at Huddersfield.........

So.......is that LJs fault or the fault of the players who failed to do as instructed?

 
Just asking................:dunno:

 

If the players are being asked to do something they cannot do - either because they don't understand it, or they cannot fulfil that role, or it is just beyond their competence, that is up to the coach/manager to identify and explain/train, or get in someone who CAN do what is required, or re-assess whether you aren't overcomplicating something and coaching out natural abilities.

Morale also is the responsibility of a coach/manager. You've got to be not only a tactician, but someone who can instil the warrior spirit, can pick people up where they are down and get the very best out of them. 

I'm 100% not a Warnock fan, but the latter is something Colin does well. I'm not so sure it comes naturally to Lee, which may explain the protracted poor patches.

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14 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

A teams tactics should always reflect the technical ability of the team. If a player cannot adopt tactically he is not in the wrong job, he is in the wrong role or team.

Teams do vary their approach. How many teams this season in the championship have played seven formations? 

Bristol Citys players are not top level. Mr Johnson methodology goes against norms of top level coaches.

There is a clear link between consistency of approach and responsibility as there is between confidence, consistency and error.

 

I don’t claim to be a tactical guru, neither am I fiercely ‘pro Johnson’, but I do object to sweeping statements like ‘he hasn’t got a clue’ or ‘the players have no idea what formation they’re playing’ which is clearly hyperbolic guff.

Whatever your views on our tactical approach it’s to date been more effective than that of the vast majority of the competition. It’s obvious to all that LJ is one of those managers who changes things based on the opposition/players available rather than steadfastly sticking to a rigid system. Rightly or wrongly.

For all the fawning over Brentford’s ‘system’ they’re 3 points ahead of us after 35 games of football. 

Do I think he’ll take us any further than ‘nearly men’? Hand on heart, no, probably not. A change in the summer is probably in everyone’s interests at this point.

But I think he also gets a considerable amount of undue criticism, and I wouldn’t for one second think that a change will bring the sparkling new dawn that his fiercest detractors seem to think is a mere formality.

And I think the ‘as long as we play nice football I don’t care where we finish’ mantra - that seems to be the underlying basis of those shouting the loudest - will last about 5 minutes.

The last time we decreed that being a solid enough championship wasn’t good enough we went a long way backwards before we even got back to where we decided wasn’t good enough, let alone any form of progression. 

Edited by BRISTOL86
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5 hours ago, David Brent said:

Do the players look like they don’t care? I wouldn’t have thought so. It’s clear that they are playing to an instruction 

I don’t think they are playing like they don’t care, but you can sense that they have lost a bit of faith in the ‘project’ and maybe because of how they are being instructed too. They seem stifled and playing without freedom to think for themselves and show any sort of flair. They are playing like they are afraid to put a foot wrong, not only about making mistakes on the pitch but maybe the consequences off it in my opinion.

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I think this has been mentioned a bit before - but my feeling is we are now perhaps seeing our DNA profiling coming to bite us in the arse a bit.

We’ve all seen our performances slowly get worse and worse, and confidence, especially in the desperation to get points at home, has slowly ebbed away.

What we’ve needed is some time is a real “come the **** on”, arrogant, aggressive reaction and behaviour from some of our players in the face of this. There’ll all too nice - yes they maybe united and working hard for each other - a great bunch of lads, we hear time and again.

But look at WBA the other night, scored and that little manual manipulator got right in our faces in the south stand. That nasty streak that gives the edge, the confidence, the arrogance to pull it off.

When the chips are down and you face adversity, do you fight, flee or freeze?

Too many of our squad are nice guys with great DNA that seem to freeze or flee under pressure. You get away with it when things are going well - but who are our real warriors that can be right a bastard and fight for us when the going gets tough?

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4 hours ago, Redwhitepurple said:

Its interesting debate but to me and many others these players are clearly restricted how they can play so it boils down to one man.

⏬

4 hours ago, marmite said:

The players play to instructions.  They are coached to play cautiously.  They are told how to play and therefore cannot use their flair and instinct. They are constantly looking to the bench rather than taking their own responsibility. The buck stops with LJ.

The only thing I can come back to is that our players are being constrained by the tactics / system / formation.  When the ball is in position x, you should be in position y, etc.  But the game is too fluid for that, plus there’s an opponent trying to stop you doing what you want.  I can’t believe LJ is that naive, but I see little reaction from the sideline to the way the opposition is playing.  I see little intelligence / leadership on the pitch either to “solve their own problems”.  That can only come about by lack of empowerment and fear of being dug out for going against the wishes of the head-coach.

3 hours ago, Badger08 said:

Just to flip that. When we went on our unbeaten run, conceding the least goals or whatever it was for 40 years, was the the player or LJ?

I can only imagine a combination of both.  

3 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

In my opinion LJ has become a noticeably more cautious coach, particularly at home.

Take out the Leeds and WBA's of this league as a cautious approach makes a degree of sense, we don't start at 100 miles an hour and try and impose ourselves on the opposition from minute one at home - we play like the away team.

It is something that I don't get, I think we have a pretty strong squad yet we play it too safely, boring even, and that is one of the reasons for the unrest on here.

It won't take long for that to spread to the majority of the fan base if we slip out of contention playing how we currently are.

Jack a Hunt once said to me....if we’re 0-0 at 70 we fancy our chances.

Going back to the top of my reply I’d like to describe a couple of scenarios:

Scenario 1 - Build up from the back.

If you can imagine Bentley rolling a ball out to our CBs in a 442 (for ease of thought).  Williams gets the ball 20-25 yards from our goal (just outside our box).  If he’s gonna play it into midfield, how long a forward pass do you think he wants to play? 10 yards forward?  15 yards at most.  What if the midfielders are 25-30 yards away, near the halfway line?  Makes the pass harder, more chance of being intercepted, etc.  Increase that risk if Williams is being pressured.  Assume he does get the pass away, it is likely the midfielder will be coming towards the ball to receive it.  Where does he go (assuming he gets it under control)?  Straight back to Williams (or Baker or Bentley), or to the full-back, which enables the opposition to condense the press into a smaller area.  Ball ultimately goes long, but as the midfielders have reacted to us being under a press have started to retreat towards the ball, means that if the long ball finds Diedhiou, he has nobody around him.

I watch this sequence of events over and over again at Ashton Gate.  GK > CB > MF back to > CB/RB > long ball > possession over.  On the left side Dasilva’s touch gives his teammates confidence to come short and offer a give and go.

If the midfield started closer to Williams you’d see several more shorter passing opportunities open up, and also our forward become an option too.

Apologies if a bit difficult to visualise.

I think this is instruction.  Because from what I’ve seen of the likes of Massengo and Nagy they are very keen to play the water carrier and link the units, but unless they actually come back into the back 4 to get the ball off of the keeper, they are positioned too far away.  I’m calling this positional restriction, I.e. not being allowed to react to where the ball is, your team mate is and your opponent is.

Scenario 2 - Long ball from the back

Firstly, I have no option with going a bit more direct.  Two sub-scenarios here;

a) Diedhiou is too far forward as the target.

Has to react to the ball flight, sprint back towards his own goal in an attempt to control it or flick it on.  You ever tried doing either of those running quickly towards your own goal?  Meat and drink for a CB watching the flight of the ball.  If Fam does get a flick on, its to nobody.  Bentley’s kicks often are dropping 15-20 yards shorter than Fam’s starting position.

b) crowding the midfield.

Similar to above, but the midfield and Fam / Andi all pretty much along a line, 5 yards deep, but in the right kind of area for where Bentley is gonna drop the ball.  Fam wins the flick, only to find nobody has run behind him.  We don’t just see the opposition CBs getting the ball, because often they’ve dropped off, but the opposition DM’s under no pressure, in good shape to start their attack.    We would be better off staggering our midfield and forward lines.  We are easy to mark and opposition in no risk of being caught wrong side.

I believe much of the above is again down to having to be in a certain position.

Our players are good enough to play without such rigid instruction.  They look as if they are not allowed to play off the cuff, and you perhaps see why Palmer isn’t getting much game time, or when he does other players are not where he’d expect an intelligent player (who understands Kasey’s game) to be.  We don’t set up to play short, we don’t set up to play long.

Any system that takes 30 sessions to understand / become accustomed too, is too long, too complicated....and bloody confusing when we appear to use multiple versions, often in the same game.  These guys know how to play the game, it sounds like they are being re-taught....and then not being able to think quickly enough when on the pitch.

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I see Steve L flew in from his Chamnel Island base especially to see the Huddersfield Match.........boy I bet he was impressed, according to the Post he had a chat with LJ, but it was apparently nothing to do with his position of manager, probably chatted about interior design or bathroom tiles then?  Great quote from LJ, when discussing some misinformation with regard to our players arguing..............."While you would have seen  a flare up as a demonstration of players' passions in time gone by......such events are rare in the modern game, back in my day, your'e fighting in the dressing room, it doesn't happen now"    No Lj, cause their too busy talking to their agent or checking their bank balance to be bothered with passion? 🙃

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5 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

Managing a footbal club is like managing any group of people in any industry. In modern speak nobody talks about managers anymore, the new term is leaders.

When you gather a team of people with a leader, certain dynamics occur. Within the base team, influencers and followers develop and the influencers gather followers to their way of thinking.

This is human nature and is a completely established group behaviour.

If the group is left to its own devices, the result will drift to reflect the agenda of the most powerful influencer within the team.

So what does a good general manager/ group leader or head coach do?.

Firstly he understands his groups learning who are the influencers and followers and then learns who is positive and who is negative.

He then creates a method of leadership that inspires and rewards the positive influencers and followers.He creates a clear message and ethos that he himself follows 100%

His team becomes the popular one and the one you want to be in. The power of the negative influencers falls back and they become the moaners and occupy the lowest status in the group.

This is all great when things are going well. When things are not going well this leader needs to have the strength to gather and consult with the influencers within the team. Establish what is going wrong and seek their support to get the new approach out to the team and make it work.

If the leader takes the other approach sticking rigidly to his original ideas and blaming others he will lose the team.

The negative influencers will rise to the top and their group will grow.

It takes an incredible leader to come back from that.

If you take a player like John Terrey

If he is with the coach, great, you could not get a better wing man. If he falls out with the coach it is 100% different.

Yes our players are well paid and they should give their all every week.

But human nature is very powerful and if they don't understand or believe in the plan they wil react in a way relative to their nature.

Some will get frustrated and shout to the team Jay DeSilva when ever there is no pass on,  some will go into their shell and just try to do nothing wrong O'Dowda

Others will just play their way so that in their head they can say I did my best like Baker.

Why do teams need leaders? Because without a leader they are not a team

 

 

Great post, I was just catching up on this thread and was thinking that no one had mentioned leaders on the pitch.  John Terry was one, I was going to raise, along with Tony Adams and Roy Keane, players who would take control on the pitch if it was all going wrong.  If they had no confidence in the Managers tactics, he’d know, before hand and during the game when the Captain would be directing the players rather than passively sitting back and going with the less than effective flow.

Does LJ purposely stay away from strong leaders, players who would stand up to him if they felt he was wrong - I don’t know, but from the games I have seen we haven’t got strong leadership on the pitch and that doesn’t help when it all falls apart.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

⏬

The only thing I can come back to is that our players are being constrained by the tactics / system / formation.  When the ball is in position x, you should be in position y, etc.  But the game is too fluid for that, plus there’s an opponent trying to stop you doing what you want.  I can’t believe LJ is that naive, but I see little reaction from the sideline to the way the opposition is playing.  I see little intelligence / leadership on the pitch either to “solve their own problems”.  That can only come about by lack of empowerment and fear of being dug out for going against the wishes of the head-coach.

I can only imagine a combination of both.  

Jack a Hunt once said to me....if we’re 0-0 at 70 we fancy our chances.

Going back to the top of my reply I’d like to describe a couple of scenarios:

Scenario 1 - Build up from the back.

If you can imagine Bentley rolling a ball out to our CBs in a 442 (for ease of thought).  Williams gets the ball 20-25 yards from our goal (just outside our box).  If he’s gonna play it into midfield, how long a forward pass do you think he wants to play? 10 yards forward?  15 yards at most.  What if the midfielders are 25-30 yards away, near the halfway line?  Makes the pass harder, more chance of being intercepted, etc.  Increase that risk if Williams is being pressured.  Assume he does get the pass away, it is likely the midfielder will be coming towards the ball to receive it.  Where does he go (assuming he gets it under control)?  Straight back to Williams (or Baker or Bentley), or to the full-back, which enables the opposition to condense the press into a smaller area.  Ball ultimately goes long, but as the midfielders have reacted to us being under a press have started to retreat towards the ball, means that if the long ball finds Diedhiou, he has nobody around him.

I watch this sequence of events over and over again at Ashton Gate.  GK > CB > MF back to > CB/RB > long ball > possession over.  On the left side Dasilva’s touch gives his teammates confidence to come short and offer a give and go.

If the midfield started closer to Williams you’d see several more shorter passing opportunities open up, and also our forward become an option too.

Apologies if a bit difficult to visualise.

I think this is instruction.  Because from what I’ve seen of the likes of Massengo and Nagy they are very keen to play the water carrier and link the units, but unless they actually come back into the back 4 to get the ball off of the keeper, they are positioned too far away.  I’m calling this positional restriction, I.e. not being allowed to react to where the ball is, your team mate is and your opponent is.

Scenario 2 - Long ball from the back

Firstly, I have no option with going a bit more direct.  Two sub-scenarios here;

a) Diedhiou is too far forward as the target.

Has to react to the ball flight, sprint back towards his own goal in an attempt to control it or flick it on.  You ever tried doing either of those running quickly towards your own goal?  Meat and drink for a CB watching the flight of the ball.  If Fam does get a flick on, its to nobody.  Bentley’s kicks often are dropping 15-20 yards shorter than Fam’s starting position.

b) crowding the midfield.

Similar to above, but the midfield and Fam / Andi all pretty much along a line, 5 yards deep, but in the right kind of area for where Bentley is gonna drop the ball.  Fam wins the flick, only to find nobody has run behind him.  We don’t just see the opposition CBs getting the ball, because often they’ve dropped off, but the opposition DM’s under no pressure, in good shape to start their attack.    We would be better off staggering our midfield and forward lines.  We are easy to mark and opposition in no risk of being caught wrong side.

I believe much of the above is again down to having to be in a certain position.

Our players are good enough to play without such rigid instruction.  They look as if they are not allowed to play off the cuff, and you perhaps see why Palmer isn’t getting much game time, or when he does other players are not where he’d expect an intelligent player (who understands Kasey’s game) to be.  We don’t set up to play short, we don’t set up to play long.

Any system that takes 30 sessions to understand / become accustomed too, is too long, too complicated....and bloody confusing when we appear to use multiple versions, often in the same game.  These guys know how to play the game, it sounds like they are being re-taught....and then not being able to think quickly enough when on the pitch.

Great post Davefevs. Thing is if we can see what's wrong on the pitch, why cant our coaches.  Unless they think it's not wrong. LJ was a cautious player who took no chances with his game. I'm afraid he coaches safety first football, and its bl##dy awful to watch.

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5 minutes ago, marmite said:

Great post Davefevs. Thing is if we can see what's wrong on the pitch, why cant our coaches.  Unless they think it's not wrong. LJ was a cautious player who took no chances with his game. I'm afraid he coaches safety first football, and its bl##dy awful to watch.

The distances are effin huge at times, yet I never hear it mentioned by any of our head-coaches?????

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6 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

What a load of absolute nonsense that is. 

You never noticed his ball avoidance tactics then? Placed himself in positions where he was not threatened, got rid of the ball at first opportunity, checked for the back or sideways pass as default option, that’s how he saw his last period with city out - would not have got a start if he were not the gaffers son.

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17 minutes ago, dave36 said:

You never noticed his ball avoidance tactics then? Placed himself in positions where he was not threatened, got rid of the ball at first opportunity, checked for the back or sideways pass as default option, that’s how he saw his last period with city out - would not have got a start if he were not the gaffers son.

His career goals and assists do not stack up with a player who ‘avoids the ball’. Streets ahead of Korey Smith in assists and goals per game for example and not a million miles behind Brownhill who plays in a much more attacking role than LJ did. Cheap dig, he played an important part in the best season we’ve had in an entire generation. 

Edited by BRISTOL86

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1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

His career goals and assists do not stack up with a player who ‘avoids the ball’. Streets ahead of Korey Smith in assists and goals per game for example and not a million miles behind Brownhill who plays in a much more attacking role than LJ did. Cheap dig, he played an important part in the best season we’ve had in an entire generation. 

Yes his earlier years he was an asset, think he scored 9 or 10 goals for us, but after he’s spell at Derby and until he (if I remember it correctly) went to Scotland he did not excel at all for us, if fact he became a very frustrating team member

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anyone have any idea when korey will be back,always been a good leader in midfield.ive never met him but seems a likeable chap who wouldn't upset players barking out instructions,  id imagine they would appreciate it.

as someone else said,it seems like we are frightened to go with our instincts and try anything adventurous.. never going to cut through a team easily with our current style of passing,need 1 or 2 players darting off into positions where the rest of the team know they will go so the play can move forwards.

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2 hours ago, redsquirrel said:

anyone have any idea when korey will be back,always been a good leader in midfield.ive never met him but seems a likeable chap who wouldn't upset players barking out instructions,  id imagine they would appreciate it.

as someone else said,it seems like we are frightened to go with our instincts and try anything adventurous.. never going to cut through a team easily with our current style of passing,need 1 or 2 players darting off into positions where the rest of the team know they will go so the play can move forwards.

Back in contention tomorrow.

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I’m not letting LJ off the hook here (I’m very concerned at how the team is being set up), but I do think the players need to take some responsibility as well. Against WBA (I didn’t see the Huddersfield game) yes we were outplayed, but their goals all came from individual errors with players taking unnecessary risks. The amount of times we concede chances by losing the ball drives me mad. 

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21 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I don’t claim to be a tactical guru, neither am I fiercely ‘pro Johnson’, but I do object to sweeping statements like ‘he hasn’t got a clue’ or ‘the players have no idea what formation they’re playing’ which is clearly hyperbolic guff.

Yes it is. 

I have never posted that he hasn't got a clue or the players have no idea .. But what I have suggested is that the players performance can be a logical consequence of Lee Johnson's methods.

21 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Whatever your views on our tactical approach it’s to date been more effective than that of the vast majority of the competition. 

 It depends on what standard you are using. Using just points avoids context. 

A standard I have use is Mr Johnsons own remarks. He has had his windows. His team can't self coach, lacks leaders, loses its unidentifiable identity regularly, doesn't carry out his game plans and Lee Johnson consistently criticises his own players.

21 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

 It’s obvious to all that LJ is one of those managers who changes things based on the opposition/players available rather than steadfastly sticking to a rigid system. Rightly or wrongly.

 

Which  is a polar opposite to what he stated was an aim. Mr Johnson team has no identity. He sticks to no system.

21 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

 

For all the fawning over Brentford’s ‘system’ they’re 3 points ahead of us after 35 games of football. 

 

 Because you have used solely the metric of points. There is no context applied. 

21 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

 

Do I think he’ll take us any further than ‘nearly men’? Hand on heart, no, probably not. A change in the summer is probably in everyone’s interests at this point.

I would agree.

21 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

But I think he also gets a considerable amount of undue criticism, 

I think the criticism has been meek when viewed against say Russell Osman. All Managers get undue criticism. It part of the tapestry of football.

21 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

And I think the ‘as long as we play nice football I don’t care where we finish’ mantra - that seems to be the underlying basis of those shouting the loudest - will last about 5 minutes.

 

Is it? I don't know. 

21 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

The last time we decreed that being a solid enough championship wasn’t good enough we went a long way backwards before we even got back to where we decided wasn’t good enough, let alone any form of progression. 

Where is the context? 

Lee Johnson has a different budget to his predecessors. Mr Johnson has different tasks. 

The above has gone off on some tangent but the point I was making was about players responsibility and basic sports psychology. There is a inference in the opening post and other posts that the players are shirking responsibility, hiding, and should be able to do the tasks they are being asked to do. 

Consistency of approach generally leads to increased confidence, better decision making and individual responsibility. That is the point I have made, and Mr Johnsons behaviours can logically lead to the players perceived weaknesses.

 

 

Edited by Cowshed

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