Don't know the value of someone till they are gone

[where's the joy]

Josh Brownhill has been sorely missed in our midfield since his departure to the bench at Burnley.

Whether he was an 8 out of 10 every week doesn't matter, it is his absence that coincides with our awful showing in midfield since he left.

Good luck to the Lansdown's for making decent money out of him, but just once in a while imagine if you had done some of the following instead

1 Signed a football equivalent of Pat Lam to run the team, in order to attract players like Gayle

2 Tried harder to keep the likes of Bryan, Reid, Webster, Kodjia, Brownhill, Kelly, even Flint, by really going for promotion.

3 Signed a proven young striker with a good fitness record with sell on value and gone for Harry McGuire around the 15M mark, now worth 80M

This selling off anyone half decent as soon as we can is killing the fan base and presenting us with some of the most inept standard of football.

The supporters will turn nasty and hostile soon. I'm amazed we have been as patient as we have until now

LJ is pilloried for his Tombola approach but he really has no idea what his best two teams are, let alone how to get all of the best ones onto the pitch at the same time.

The board have been buying quantity over quality, when Coutts showed them that you could be champions with empty seats on the bench and full seats in the stands.

We have no discernible playing style and are awful to watch, especially at home. 

The squad is far too big even before you ask where Vyner, O'leary, Taylor Moore, Jonny Smith etc are going to fit in

Lets hope a fresh approach in the summer and a fit Benik Afobe will allow us to have a right good go next season

[Rossi the Robin]

True

[The Coach]

I don’t think he’s been missed at all. We were poor with Josh in the side still. Aguero could be playing for us and he would still struggle.

The rot is with the management team. They need to go. 

[CotswoldRed]

True. But we've been crap at home all season with him.

[Chappers]

Following your suggestions might just lead to serious financial problems, fine and points deduction under FFP etc.

[pongo88]

Brownhill, at his best, would be missed but this season he had a lot of very average performances. There’s no reason to believe that his form would have picked up if he’d remained.  The way the team, formation and tactics change every game it’s difficult for any player to play consistently well 

[wendyredredrobin]

The main problem is that there is no forward thinking in the team, especially from the midfield.  Josh did give us an element of that, but probably not enough.

We need to see defenders bringing the ball out, a central midfielder pushing further forward and a lot more movement from our forwards.  We need to move the ball much more quickly.  

How often have we got the ball into the box to find that we have no forwards within 20 yards?

It's not rocket science. We can't set up to simply not concede every week without having a few forward thinking tactics.

[Calculus]

We also need to take into account that all these players wanted to go. They're all ambitious, wanting to get to higher levels and looking and to improve their wages. Good luck to them all.

[Allwaysred]

2 hours ago, Redpool said:

I don’t think he’s been missed at all. We were poor with Josh in the side still. Aguero could be playing for us and he would still struggle.

The rot is with the management team. They need to go. 

Yep they've not learned a single thing same mistakes week after week and the way he sets us up to try and defend deep is suicide and just invites pressure. I'll go back to not just this transfer window but others gone by and question what we have brought in. On paper they look reasonable as individuals but as a team or to suit his style of play is abysmal when you think about it and like I've said before to let key players leave this club and not get anywhere near replacing them is a joke and for that I'll hold MA accountable. This summer will be massive as 6/7 new faces will be needed as 2/3 will move on to better things 4/5 back to where they came from or simply crap or always injured so again Mr Johnson will have a new squad to blame... 

[Dullmoan Tone]

The problem is not letting players go - every club does this, it's who we bring in to replace them.

If they fit a settled pattern of play every club can lose stars - take, for example, Liverpool and Courtinho - no Liverpool fan wanted him to go and yet...

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, where's the joy said:

Josh Brownhill has been sorely missed in our midfield since his departure to the bench at Burnley.

 

2 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

True. But we've been crap at home all season with him.

This 

I agree with some of the post, but it's not like performances have dropped off since he left, we were shite before , with him.

The recruitment , I'm starting to think , is done around him. We have to sale our players (everyone does to some extent), The players we have let go although annoying, have all been good deals for various reasons and have helped toward FFP etc. Plus, as I said , despite what Johnson says it looks more and more like he doesn't have control over ins and outs.  That said, I agree that he doesn't now his best line up. My real problem is no set system or style , no set formation . Not sure what they do during the week, but it can't be passing drills.

[ScottishRed]

3 hours ago, where's the joy said:

Josh Brownhill has been sorely missed in our midfield since his departure to the bench at Burnley.

Whether he was an 8 out of 10 every week doesn't matter, it is his absence that coincides with our awful showing in midfield since he left.

Good luck to the Lansdown's for making decent money out of him, but just once in a while imagine if you had done some of the following instead

1 Signed a football equivalent of Pat Lam to run the team, in order to attract players like Gayle

2 Tried harder to keep the likes of Bryan, Reid, Webster, Kodjia, Brownhill, Kelly, even Flint, by really going for promotion.

3 Signed a proven young striker with a good fitness record with sell on value and gone for Harry McGuire around the 15M mark, now worth 80M

This selling off anyone half decent as soon as we can is killing the fan base and presenting us with some of the most inept standard of football.

The supporters will turn nasty and hostile soon. I'm amazed we have been as patient as we have until now

LJ is pilloried for his Tombola approach but he really has no idea what his best two teams are, let alone how to get all of the best ones onto the pitch at the same time.

The board have been buying quantity over quality, when Coutts showed them that you could be champions with empty seats on the bench and full seats in the stands.

We have no discernible playing style and are awful to watch, especially at home. 

The squad is far too big even before you ask where Vyner, O'leary, Taylor Moore, Jonny Smith etc are going to fit in

Lets hope a fresh approach in the summer and a fit Benik Afobe will allow us to have a right good go next season

Can you explain to me how we “can try harder” to keep players that have been offered PL football and the riches that go with it?

Apart from Flint , the rest went to the PL , I am really interested in your response and please keep in mind FFP, when you reply.

[milo1111]

3 hours ago, where's the joy said:

Josh Brownhill has been sorely missed in our midfield since his departure to the bench at Burnley.

Whether he was an 8 out of 10 every week doesn't matter, it is his absence that coincides with our awful showing in midfield since he left.

Good luck to the Lansdown's for making decent money out of him, but just once in a while imagine if you had done some of the following instead

1 Signed a football equivalent of Pat Lam to run the team, in order to attract players like Gayle

2 Tried harder to keep the likes of Bryan, Reid, Webster, Kodjia, Brownhill, Kelly, even Flint, by really going for promotion.

3 Signed a proven young striker with a good fitness record with sell on value and gone for Harry McGuire around the 15M mark, now worth 80M

This selling off anyone half decent as soon as we can is killing the fan base and presenting us with some of the most inept standard of football.

The supporters will turn nasty and hostile soon. I'm amazed we have been as patient as we have until now

LJ is pilloried for his Tombola approach but he really has no idea what his best two teams are, let alone how to get all of the best ones onto the pitch at the same time.

The board have been buying quantity over quality, when Coutts showed them that you could be champions with empty seats on the bench and full seats in the stands.

We have no discernible playing style and are awful to watch, especially at home. 

The squad is far too big even before you ask where Vyner, O'leary, Taylor Moore, Jonny Smith etc are going to fit in

Lets hope a fresh approach in the summer and a fit Benik Afobe will allow us to have a right good go next season

The pat lam point is very poignant. Pat lam was a great player and you can see now that the players will run through brick walls for him. The guy is no nonsense and commands respect. On top of this he is a great tatically. 

lee Johnson has got ability and has done a reasonable job but I don’t believe he commands total respect and can motivate players to run through brick walls as it were.

to me it’s obvious he has taken us as far as he can. If he wasn’t a former player with links to our owner he wouldn’t of even got the job in the first place.

[Chappers]

44 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

e. This summer will be massive as 6/7 new faces will be needed as 2/3 will move on to better things 4/5 back to where they came from or simply crap or always injured so again Mr Johnson will have a new squad to blame... 

On that basis we could have one massive squad . I’d rather we went back to the development idea, bring back Walsh and Morrell, and bring in younger players looking to improve. Maybe even accept it might take a season to rebuild, looking to emerge as a much stronger team.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, where's the joy said:

Josh Brownhill has been sorely missed in our midfield since his departure to the bench at Burnley.

Whether he was an 8 out of 10 every week doesn't matter, it is his absence that coincides with our awful showing in midfield since he left.

Good luck to the Lansdown's for making decent money out of him, but just once in a while imagine if you had done some of the following instead

1 Signed a football equivalent of Pat Lam to run the team, in order to attract players like Gayle

2 Tried harder to keep the likes of Bryan, Reid, Webster, Kodjia, Brownhill, Kelly, even Flint, by really going for promotion.

3 Signed a proven young striker with a good fitness record with sell on value and gone for Harry McGuire around the 15M mark, now worth 80M

This selling off anyone half decent as soon as we can is killing the fan base and presenting us with some of the most inept standard of football.

The supporters will turn nasty and hostile soon. I'm amazed we have been as patient as we have until now

LJ is pilloried for his Tombola approach but he really has no idea what his best two teams are, let alone how to get all of the best ones onto the pitch at the same time.

The board have been buying quantity over quality, when Coutts showed them that you could be champions with empty seats on the bench and full seats in the stands.

We have no discernible playing style and are awful to watch, especially at home. 

The squad is far too big even before you ask where Vyner, O'leary, Taylor Moore, Jonny Smith etc are going to fit in

Lets hope a fresh approach in the summer and a fit Benik Afobe will allow us to have a right good go next season

FFP- the bits in hold feed in here. The division is heading this way a bit- in some ways it's a necessary evil.

However I do agree with elements of your post- definitely too big a squad, quality v quantity at this level- I'm unsure but we perhaps have the balance a bit wrong- squad a bit too big?

OTOH, a small squad at this level like with Cotts 5 years ago...the amount of injuries we've had in the last 2 and a half seasons , this would leave us absolutely screwed!

[Street red]

1 hour ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

The problem is not letting players go - every club does this, it's who we bring in to replace them.

If they fit a settled pattern of play every club can lose stars - take, for example, Liverpool and Courtinho - no Liverpool fan wanted him to go and yet...

Agreed As a manager or club you set a formation you set a style of play you set a pattern that each player knows including youth .

It's a big excuse that we've sold players we should be producing these players to step into that gap or finding that signing.

The big thing for me is the massive turn over of players in no way we can be consistent the way it's been in 4 years.

The only academy player on the bench is wollacott what's happened to players like Bryan Reid etc.

[1960maaan]

28 minutes ago, Chappers said:

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

e. This summer will be massive as 6/7 new faces will be needed as 2/3 will move on to better things 4/5 back to where they came from or simply crap or always injured so again Mr Johnson will have a new squad to blame... 

On that basis we could have one massive squad . I’d rather we went back to the development idea, bring back Walsh and Morrell, and bring in younger players looking to improve. Maybe even accept it might take a season to rebuild, looking to emerge as a much stronger team.

Not sure where this came from, that's not what I said .

But on your bit, I rate Walsh and would have brought Morrell back and played him in the run in. They could not have been any worse than we have seen, and I think Nagy and HNM are decent and even MH could be an asset , we just don't play to or with a midfield.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

FFP- the bits in hold feed in here. The division is heading this way a bit- in some ways it's a necessary evil.

However I do agree with elements of your post- definitely too big a squad, quality v quantity at this level- I'm unsure but we perhaps have the balance a bit wrong- squad a bit too big?

OTOH, a small squad at this level like with Cotts 5 years ago...the amount of injuries we've had in the last 2 and a half seasons , this would leave us absolutely screwed!

But just imagine an 21 man squad of the following going into 20/21....bit of license, but just go with it for now, you’ll disagree with some:

Bentley | O’Leary (2)

Hunt | Vyner | Kalas | Baker | Moore | Dasilva | Rowe (7)

O’Dowda | Nagy | Massengo | Smith | Paterson | Szmodics | Morrell | Walsh (8)

Weimann | Wells | Afobe | Semenyo (4)

As your foundation for the start of the summer.  You probably make a call re who out of Pato, Szmodics and O’Dowda you keep, might be 1 or 2, but not all 3.

I’m assuming Eliasson Palmer and Diedhiou will be sold, Watkins released along with Williams, Mäenpää, Taylor and Wright out of contract.

then supplement with:

Wollacott (Gilmartin as coach), Pring, J.Smith, Bakinson, Janneh.  The likelihood of needing them regularly is Los, but they are training with the group, learning the system, learning from the first teamers.  When needed, they are ready.

That’s the way I’d approach the summer.  The sales will cover losses / FFP....the purchase of Afobe (assume fit).  Decide on your system and adjust from there.

 

[RedRock]

We’ve got the Fliers, the Bears and City could be named the Polo’s. The team with a hole in the middle of it.

 

LJs biggest blind spot, oddly given his playing position, is the midfield. The glue that holds together the on-the-field patterns.

We’re all over the place quite frankly.

Time now to get Warnock or McCarthy in for the rest of the season to sort this mess of a squad out imo. Get a system in place, put in the pieces that fit and go for it.

New manager if we fail to get up and big clear out in the Summer of the inconsistent, can’t be bothered and ain’t good enough ones.

[RedRock]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But just imagine an 21 man squad of the following going into 20/21....bit of license, but just go with it for now, you’ll disagree with some:

Bentley | O’Leary (2)

Hunt | Vyner | Kalas | Baker | Moore | Dasilva | Rowe (7)

O’Dowda | Nagy | Massengo | Smith | Paterson | Szmodics | Morrell | Walsh (8)

Weimann | Wells | Afobe | Semenyo (4)

As your foundation for the start of the summer.  You probably make a call re who out of Pato, Szmodics and O’Dowda you keep, might be 1 or 2, but not all 3.

I’m assuming Eliasson Palmer and Diedhiou will be sold, Watkins released along with Williams, Mäenpää, Taylor and Wright out of contract.

then supplement with:

Wollacott (Gilmartin as coach), Pring, J.Smith, Bakinson, Janneh.  The likelihood of needing them regularly is Los, but they are training with the group, learning the system, learning from the first teamers.  When needed, they are ready.

That’s the way I’d approach the summer.  The sales will cover losses / FFP....the purchase of Afobe (assume fit).  Decide on your system and adjust from there.

 

That’s a physically weak, weak set of midfielders. ..and there our problem lies.

[REDOXO]

Yep...One day there will be kids referring to this nuttiness as the good old days and having academic conversations regarding whether LJ was the best coach of his generation! He’ll be missed! L M F A O!

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, Chappers said:

Following your suggestions might just lead to serious financial problems, fine and points deduction under FFP etc.

Don’t let that get in the way of another moan!

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, RedRock said:

That’s a physically weak, weak set of midfielders. ..and there our problem lies.

Maybe.  I’m sure plenty will agree.

But as I stated, it’s the starting point for the summer.  If you are manager, your priority might be a physical CM....in which case you need to decide who to trade.  It might be you decide not to extend K.Smith for starters.  Or maybe it’s a choice between Morrell and Walsh?  You decide.

But rather than just bringing in players in (like LJ has) and then having to loan out a player or not and have a bloated squad, it’s one in, one out from your base position.

I appreciate it’s not as simple as I suggest, but there have to be some rules, some principles to start from.

[Dastardly and Muttley]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe.  I’m sure plenty will agree.

But as I stated, it’s the starting point for the summer.  If you are manager, your priority might be a physical CM....in which case you need to decide who to trade.  It might be you decide not to extend K.Smith for starters.  Or maybe it’s a choice between Morrell and Walsh?  You decide.

But rather than just bringing in players in (like LJ has) and then having to loan out a player or not and have a bloated squad, it’s one in, one out from your base position.

I appreciate it’s not as simple as I suggest, but there have to be some rules, some principles to start from.

Thing is, the midfield’s had an expensive overhaul. Hard to argue for giving money to fund another overhaul in there already.

Out went Pack, Brownhill and Paterson.

In came Paterson, Palmer, Massengo, Szmodics, Nagy and Henriksen.

Why would you trust the management team with another overhaul, when arguably the best player in that midfield has been the guy they loaned out to Derby for half a season?

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Dastardly and Muttley said:

Thing is, the midfield’s had an expensive overhaul. Hard to argue for giving money to fund another overhaul in there already.

Out went Pack, Brownhill and Paterson.

In came Paterson, Palmer, Massengo, Szmodics, Nagy and Henriksen.

Why would you trust the management team with another overhaul, when arguably the best player in that midfield has been the guy they loaned out to Derby for half a season?

I wouldn’t, i was thinking someone else might be in place.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe.  I’m sure plenty will agree.

But as I stated, it’s the starting point for the summer.  If you are manager, your priority might be a physical CM....in which case you need to decide who to trade.  It might be you decide not to extend K.Smith for starters.  Or maybe it’s a choice between Morrell and Walsh?  You decide.

But rather than just bringing in players in (like LJ has) and then having to loan out a player or not and have a bloated squad, it’s one in, one out from your base position.

I appreciate it’s not as simple as I suggest, but there have to be some rules, some principles to start from.

Whilst a strong argument for it, that’s not the direction this club is going in / Has gone. The playing squad is an investment portfolio. 

[Roe]

55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But just imagine an 21 man squad of the following going into 20/21....bit of license, but just go with it for now, you’ll disagree with some:

Bentley | O’Leary (2)

Hunt | Vyner | Kalas | Baker | Moore | Dasilva | Rowe (7)

O’Dowda | Nagy | Massengo | Smith | Paterson | Szmodics | Morrell | Walsh (8)

Weimann | Wells | Afobe | Semenyo (4)

As your foundation for the start of the summer.  You probably make a call re who out of Pato, Szmodics and O’Dowda you keep, might be 1 or 2, but not all 3.

I’m assuming Eliasson Palmer and Diedhiou will be sold, Watkins released along with Williams, Mäenpää, Taylor and Wright out of contract.

then supplement with:

Wollacott (Gilmartin as coach), Pring, J.Smith, Bakinson, Janneh.  The likelihood of needing them regularly is Los, but they are training with the group, learning the system, learning from the first teamers.  When needed, they are ready.

That’s the way I’d approach the summer.  The sales will cover losses / FFP....the purchase of Afobe (assume fit).  Decide on your system and adjust from there.

 

Appreciate the idea and it's the kind of thinking that I'd have preferred us to go with this season, but that looks a dangerously weak squad imo.

I'm not sure what the plan is for our midfield next season.  On paper I really like Nagy, Massengo, Morrell and Walsh individually but as a group it doesn't "tick any of the championship boxes", if you like.  Very little experience of the league, not a great deal of strength or height.  Not sure there's many goals between them either.

[RedRock]

6 minutes ago, Roe said:

Appreciate the idea and it's the kind of thinking that I'd have preferred us to go with this season, but that looks a dangerously weak squad imo.

I'm not sure what the plan is for our midfield next season.  On paper I really like Nagy, Massengo, Morrell and Walsh individually but as a group it doesn't "tick any of the championship boxes", if you like.  Very little experience of the league, not a great deal of strength or height.  Not sure there's many goals between them either.

I feel your pain.

 

Quite how, after 4 years of the same manager we are in such a mess is bewildering. 

You have a playing system, maybe two, and you have the best players you can afford to deliver that system. You sell at the right time and buy the best available player with all the attributes to fill that position within the team system.

The fault line seems to exists with LJ having a multitude of seemingly incoherent systems and MA buying random players with perceived potential but with no regard to any system. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

That’s a physically weak, weak set of midfielders. ..and there our problem lies.

Technique vs physique?

How physically imposing in midfield are WBA, Leeds, Brentford, Fulham? I know it's not all about height and bulk physicality but by the same token, it can be overstated these days, at good levels. 

Intense bursts of or structured variants of pressing. That can be a form of physicality.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

But just imagine an 21 man squad of the following going into 20/21....bit of license, but just go with it for now, you’ll disagree with some:

Bentley | O’Leary (2)

Hunt | Vyner | Kalas | Baker | Moore | Dasilva | Rowe (7)

O’Dowda | Nagy | Massengo | Smith | Paterson | Szmodics | Morrell | Walsh (8)

Weimann | Wells | Afobe | Semenyo (4)

As your foundation for the start of the summer.  You probably make a call re who out of Pato, Szmodics and O’Dowda you keep, might be 1 or 2, but not all 3.

I’m assuming Eliasson Palmer and Diedhiou will be sold, Watkins released along with Williams, Mäenpää, Taylor and Wright out of contract.

then supplement with:

Wollacott (Gilmartin as coach), Pring, J.Smith, Bakinson, Janneh.  The likelihood of needing them regularly is Los, but they are training with the group, learning the system, learning from the first teamers.  When needed, they are ready.

That’s the way I’d approach the summer.  The sales will cover losses / FFP....the purchase of Afobe (assume fit).  Decide on your system and adjust from there.

 

Seems a decent squad tbh. Players like Vyner, Rowe able to cover more than one position. O'Dowda or Paterson too depending on who we keep. 

Eliasson, Palmer and Diedhiou sold? Big calls but maybe- think I'd keep Eliasson IF he wanted a new deal at a fair price as I could see him in a 4-3-3. Think Watkins deal runs to 2021 unless we'd cut our losses a bit early. 

Agree with the idea of a foundation though then build from there. Problem maybe finding buyers in a dampened market given his form this season for say O'Dowda and maybe Paterson.