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Interesting comments from LJ...


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52 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

I'm suggesting 7th doesn't tell you anything about how you got there, the level of luck, bad luck, your current form, your level of performance etc etc. 

Relax. Ain't worth having a coronary over. 

I'm not but we are 7th for a reason and it can only reflect form and performance 

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11 minutes ago, Allwaysred said:

All bullshit the real truth is like many who have left and some of this group don't believe in JOHNSON and his tactics. Like I posted before and backed up another poster recently about not being a happy camp and it's not and that's a fact. Get to May and get him gone he's  clueless and out of his depth and his body language on the touchline every game shows that. 

So all these players signed having watched us play, spoke to other players who were already playing here, and chose to come here after finding out what it's like here...hmmmm 😆

I can imagine Wells chatting to Brownhill, asking what it's like down here...Brownhill saying...'its Shite, the Coach is clueless and everyone's arguing'...and Well's going...'Sounds great...think I'll sign then' 😆😆😆

Truth is probably more to do with frustration and getting annoyed that things aren't necessarily pretty at the moment.

Apart from Huddersfield...you can't knock the lads for effort. They give 100% most of the time and you can see the collective disappointment when they lose.

 

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5 hours ago, Olé said:

He told us it would take three transfer windows to get a team he trusts, now we need to wait for three books before we find out why he hasn't.

I'm sure buried in there will be reasons to be sympathetic with Lee, but at the moment I can't look beyond the fact he seems to be reacting to the pressure by feeding toxic innuendo into the public domain in his various press conferences. I really don't think it helps anyone (bar his own ego) and I suspect it's one area even SL won't tolerate forever.

If you want toxic you only have to browse some of the threads on this forum. 
let’s hope LJ and the players don’t digest any of it. 

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32 minutes ago, spudski said:

 

It's worth noting...we are dealing with mid to high Championship level players. The reason they are at that level is because they are inconsistent...not Prem Standard. 

 

I never understand that viewpoint.

Using your logic, Ollie Watkins and Mitrovic are only Championship quality, but both will be in the Premier League next season if you ask me. I mean you could say that about the whole West Brom team!

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12 minutes ago, mozo said:

I never understand that viewpoint.

Using your logic, Ollie Watkins and Mitrovic are only Championship quality, but both will be in the Premier League next season if you ask me. I mean you could say that about the whole West Brom team!

You get individuals of course...look at Webster.

But as a collective I was referring.

Whatever way you want to look at it...most on here who complain, do so because they find the football not entertaining. 

If we were playing entertaining football, with a playing identity that they can see, with the same amount of points, many would be happy.

The fact we aren't, and that people get wound up with LJs 'excuses', it winds many up...hence so much hostility on here right now.

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5 hours ago, Robbored said:

Well balanced and reasoned post D. I wish I’d taken the trouble to explain my reasoning.

I still maintain that had LJ had a fully fit squad this season we’d have seen pretty much the same matchday squad and starting 11.

Has any team at any time ever had a fully fit team for the season, of course not, pathetic excuses

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30 minutes ago, Galway Red said:

Has any team at any time ever had a fully fit team for the season, of course not, pathetic excuses

This tread is about the number of changes has made and I’m saying that injuries will have played a big factor in that. It wasn’t down entirely to LJ using his ‘tombola’ which is a derogatory term and in my opinion reflects just how little understanding many fans have of what goes into selecting a team.

From memory this season - Korey missing for most of it. Dasilva out for ages, Nagy out for long periods, Kalas as well. Baker is made of glass and gets injured doing up his laces. Afobe out all season. LJ lost 4 players to illness before the Leeds match.....I’m sure there are other absentees that I’ve overlooked.

Of course tactical changes play a factor but not as many as some seem to think.

City made three new signings in the window and lost Brownhill. All three have made their debuts.......yet another reason why there have been so many changes.

 

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2 hours ago, Allwaysred said:

All bullshit the real truth is like many who have left and some of this group don't believe in JOHNSON and his tactics. Like I posted before and backed up another poster recently about not being a happy camp and it's not and that's a fact. Get to May and get him gone he's  clueless and out of his depth and his body language on the touchline every game shows that. 

How can ypu possibly know that?  How are you party to the Real Truth as you put it.  I am not having a go....just wondering how you are certain you know this?

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Out of 36 league games.....he’s changed from back 5 to back 4 type formation 12 times and back 4 to a back 5 formation 4 times DURING a game....16 in total.  Several of these at half-time too.

From start of one game to the next its 12 changes.  So every third game he switches from a 5 to a 4 or a 4 to a 5.

I don’t expect him to keep an unchanged side week on week, the demands of the modern game dictate that’s impossible.  I don’t even mind the odd tactical change for a specific opponent.

But the lack of willingness to persevere with something really bugs me.  It ain’t gonna be perfect the first time you try it....drill it, coach it in, if you believe in it enough.  He is a bit of a magpie....ooh shiny new tactic, new idea, must get it next game.

But if you keep changing something, whether that be system or players, you really have insufficient sample size to know what worked for what reason and ditto with what didn’t work.

@Robbored think it was you that mentioned Livetpool’s boot room.  There is a story about them losing 3 on the trot back in the 80s, so they looked back at what they’d done differently over the past few games.  Unsure, they looked back to their training journal to when they’d last lost 3 on the trot, saw what they changed as a result, and applied the same.

I don’t like the “Tombola’ term either.  He puts a lot of thought into it undoubtedly.  Nor “clueless” either.  He certainly isn’t that either.

But he is prone to too much change.  Forget the effect of the Jan window, and look at the volume of changes pre-window.

If it’s taken him 5/6 games from the end of the window to realise what he needs to go with for the remaining 10 games, I’ll live with that (might’ve expected him to identify the causes quicker, but I’ll forgive him that).  He’s given himself a baseline with a point at Millwall (if not a performance that will entirely satisfy him).  He’s given a set of players a carrot that this is finally how he wants to play.  Now go and give them the confidence you’re not gonna chop and change for changes sake.  Of course if someone underperforms for a game or two, or someone comes on and really makes a difference, then give both players the clarity for their selection on non-selection in the next game.

we will see.

 

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7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But the lack of willingness to persevere with something really bugs me.  It ain’t gonna be perfect the first time you try it....drill it, coach it in, if you believe in it enough.  He is a bit of a magpie....ooh shiny new tactic, new idea, must get it next game.

The post I've been wanting to write for months. This line in particular sums up my issue with this season. The constant changes undermine all the talk about having an "identity" and a system.

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16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Out of 36 league games.....he’s changed from back 5 to back 4 type formation 12 times and back 4 to a back 5 formation 4 times DURING a game....16 in total.  Several of these at half-time too.

From start of one game to the next its 12 changes.  So every third game he switches from a 5 to a 4 or a 4 to a 5.

I don’t expect him to keep an unchanged side week on week, the demands of the modern game dictate that’s impossible.  I don’t even mind the odd tactical change for a specific opponent.

But the lack of willingness to persevere with something really bugs me.  It ain’t gonna be perfect the first time you try it....drill it, coach it in, if you believe in it enough.  He is a bit of a magpie....ooh shiny new tactic, new idea, must get it next game.

But if you keep changing something, whether that be system or players, you really have insufficient sample size to know what worked for what reason and ditto with what didn’t work.

@Robbored think it was you that mentioned Livetpool’s boot room.  There is a story about them losing 3 on the trot back in the 80s, so they looked back at what they’d done differently over the past few games.  Unsure, they looked back to their training journal to when they’d last lost 3 on the trot, saw what they changed as a result, and applied the same.

I don’t like the “Tombola’ term either.  He puts a lot of thought into it undoubtedly.  Nor “clueless” either.  He certainly isn’t that either.

But he is prone to too much change.  Forget the effect of the Jan window, and look at the volume of changes pre-window.

If it’s taken him 5/6 games from the end of the window to realise what he needs to go with for the remaining 10 games, I’ll live with that (might’ve expected him to identify the causes quicker, but I’ll forgive him that).  He’s given himself a baseline with a point at Millwall (if not a performance that will entirely satisfy him).  He’s given a set of players a carrot that this is finally how he wants to play.  Now go and give them the confidence you’re not gonna chop and change for changes sake.  Of course if someone underperforms for a game or two, or someone comes on and really makes a difference, then give both players the clarity for their selection on non-selection in the next game.

we will see.

 

Great post!
In man management, anyone who is unsure of his “best team” will facilitate ongoing change trying to find the perfect balance/eutopia. It is a well understood human reaction to managing “difficult people”. Tombola may be a bit harsh, but Johnson does not know his best eleven. He has the luxury of a huge squad which may be a negative rather than a positive?

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8 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Or you could say he’s taken us from relegation certainty to playoff contenders, depends how you want to spin it.

perhaps the reason he’s treated the new players how he has is because he didn’t bring them in? Perhaps he has less say in signings than we realised. It would explain why he can’t get the best out of them, or understand his best 11

It's going to sound simplistic, but. 

To me, I don't within reason mind who signs the players. If they are decent and I believe quite a few are, then a manager can get a certain amount out of them.

Quite a few clubs have limited input for a manager in terms of signing players these days- hire managers of a similar philosophy, continuity.

The manager may change but the philosophy/underlying plan remains the same.

Maybe LJ is no longer the man- as the background of players rises, his tactics and ability to get the best can seem to decline- strange yet worrying! 

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1 hour ago, maxjak said:

How can ypu possibly know that?  How are you party to the Real Truth as you put it.  I am not having a go....just wondering how you are certain you know this?

I've played myself at a decent standard and know plenty of faces past and present. Like I posted b4 I bumpt into one of them HT at the WBA game and confirmed what I thought. I know one thing for sure I'd love Wilbs to write a book.

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8 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I don't remember the word "promise", what I remember was him saying he would like to think that's where we would be. He's as ambitious and optimistic as the next Manager or Coach.

I hope our players haven't written off this season with 10 games to go, to the same extent as some of our fans. Every season has it's up's and down's at all clubs, but the important bit is at game 46. If he is deemed a failure at that point fair enough, but the fat lady hasn't even started warming up yet.

No, I hope the players haven't either

If we sneak into 6th and get battered in the play offs I could still see SL calling time on it as things stand right now

It's starting to feel like GJs departure. Sometimes you just need to here a new voice. I'll be sad, but I'd understand it more so than at any other point of LJs tenure

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3 hours ago, spudski said:

So all these players signed having watched us play, spoke to other players who were already playing here, and chose to come here after finding out what it's like here...hmmmm 😆

I can imagine Wells chatting to Brownhill, asking what it's like down here...Brownhill saying...'its Shite, the Coach is clueless and everyone's arguing'...and Well's going...'Sounds great...think I'll sign then' 😆😆😆

Truth is probably more to do with frustration and getting annoyed that things aren't necessarily pretty at the moment.

Apart from Huddersfield...you can't knock the lads for effort. They give 100% most of the time and you can see the collective disappointment when they lose.

 

Like I've said in other threads you won't always hear or see what goes on behind the scenes but I'll use NW as an example.... NW publicly said he didn't want to move from QPR but Burnley wanted JB so some times your hand is forced by the club and particularly your agent and QPR couldn't cough the money and let's be honest does NW really cut a happy figure to you?? More importantly LJ obviously doesn't see him as 4million well spent does he so did he actually want him as our style of play doesn't suit him. 

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6 hours ago, Cowshed said:

And on repeat.

Lee Johnson has stated he wanted a playing identity running through the club from the academy to the XI. 

He was making parallels between academy teams high pressing in 2017 and the XI.

The discussion of playing style troubles me and leaves a lot of why? questions.

We've seen, in the past, from a LJ team everything he was targeting, identity wise. He has created an identity before. We've had a high pressing team and we've had an excellent away form counter attacking team.

Why were they lost? Clearly the blueprints, or intentions of them, exist. 

Recruitment? Selling certain players? Chopping and changing of teams/formations, in order to find it again thus going around in circles? Bad man management? Or was it luck the first times???

And the question i'd also ask is how long does it take to create an identity and realistically, can a teams identity, or rather playing to an aimed identity, hinge on one or two key players, whom if lost, has that knock on negative effect on the rest of the team? Is it justified to say that transfer dealings in and out slow and hinder the implementation and development of a style, or even set it back? You could argue yes on both counts.

Ultimately though you can't argue with the number of changes and there detrimental effect.  LJ, like any manager or coach, is working within a number of constraints and compromises are made, but how many of the changes are ultimately down to his fiddling, or his lack of clarity on what he wants to achieve.

The question SL will ask i'm sure is, under the circumstances LJ has worked under this season, has the team achieved A) a 'par' league position, or the target he set and  B) have those circumstances justified the poorer performances. 

Let's see how the next 10 games go, but if they go like the last 10 then I think if SL is being ruthless in the pursuit of excellence, a change will come.

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39 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

The discussion of playing style troubles me and leaves a lot of why? questions.

We've seen, in the past, from a LJ team everything he was targeting, identity wise. He has created an identity before. We've had a high pressing team and we've had an excellent away form counter attacking team.

It’s funny, because the first thing he did at the end of 17/18 was say something along the lines of “you can’t play a pressing game all season”.  In many respects Bielsa has proved him right.  But having been semi-forced (forced might not be the right term, nor is stumbled) into a system that worked, he spent that summer taking it apart.  Some of that forced on him with the sales of Reid, Bryan and Flint.  Magnússon too, but LJ didn’t really seem to be keen for him to stay.

Why were they lost? Clearly the blueprints, or intentions of them, exist.

I wonder that too.  Posted something similar last week.  Weimann, the Reid replacement, and with a combination of Pato or Matty Taylor he’d covered that one nicely (initially at least).  Diedhiou’s return changed that but let’s not dwell on that, let’s stick to the blueprint of 442/460.

Magnüsson replaced by a LCB playing LB in Kelly.  Sorted plus Dasilva on loan.

Webster for Flint, plus Kalas for Baker (still in reserve though).  Sorted.

Competition for Wright / Pisano at RB with the signing of Hunt.  Sorted.

where might it gone wrong?

Midfield!!!

Who replaced Bryan in LM with energy, aggression, goals and crosses from wide?  Nobody, not O’Dowda, different type of wideman.  Eliasson?  Still developing, and never gonna be tenacious like Joe.

Brownhill to CM in place of Smith initially (Smith not 100% fit over pre-season, then injured), meaning a combination of O’Dowda and Watkins on RW, and Josh and Marlon knackered over the season.  He needed another CM.  Plus the West Brom (a) scarred LJ, and changed the way Marlon played.  We never attacked as a tight 4 man midfield (wingless wonders of 17/18) safe in the knowledge of 4 CBs behind us, who only ventured forward when possession / territory was gained deep in the opposition half when we then squeezed the hell out of our opponents and stopped them getting out.  We built pressure, even if we weren’t glamorous.

So we never quite saw the same blueprint again.  Shame!

That was “peak LJ”.

Recruitment? Selling certain players? Chopping and changing of teams/formations, in order to find it again thus going around in circles? Bad man management? Or was it luck the first times???

And the question i'd also ask is how long does it take to create an identity and realistically, can a teams identity, or rather playing to an aimed identity, hinge on one or two key players, whom if lost, has that knock on negative effect on the rest of the team? Is it justified to say that transfer dealings in and out slow and hinder the implementation and development of a style, or even set it back? You could argue yes on both counts.

once you find one, you may evolve it, but it ought to become your “security blanket”, something you can always go back to.

Ultimately though you can't argue with the number of changes and there detrimental effect.  LJ, like any manager or coach, is working within a number of constraints and compromises are made, but how many of the changes are ultimately down to his fiddling, or his lack of clarity on what he wants to achieve.

Quite a lot imho.  It may be him striving for utopia, but I see it as experimenting without objectives or without a means of measuring the objectives.

The question SL will ask i'm sure is, under the circumstances LJ has worked under this season, has the team achieved A) a 'par' league position, or the target he set and  B) have those circumstances justified the poorer performances.

He will indeed.  I don’t think non-top 6 means the sack though.

Let's see how the next 10 games go, but if they go like the last 10 then I think if SL is being ruthless in the pursuit of excellence, a change will come.

 

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6 hours ago, Allwaysred said:

Like I've said in other threads you won't always hear or see what goes on behind the scenes but I'll use NW as an example.... NW publicly said he didn't want to move from QPR but Burnley wanted JB so some times your hand is forced by the club and particularly your agent and QPR couldn't cough the money and let's be honest does NW really cut a happy figure to you?? More importantly LJ obviously doesn't see him as 4million well spent does he so did he actually want him as our style of play doesn't suit him. 

So you are suggesting that we are now signing players the LJ doesnt want here......you need to lie down, LJ will have a list of players required/wanted, to suggest not is madness. He does find out he cannot manage them however.

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8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

In response to your responses to @Alessandro, Fevs, I agree that Weimann was brought in to continue Reid's harrying from the front, but I just don't think Johnson can sleep at night without the insurance of Diedhiou's physicality. 

Add to that the Palmer/Elliasson conundrums with an assortment of other curious wide options, and you just have confusion. A confused coach and a confused team perhaps?

For an identity, you need clarity. 

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9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

I think there's logic in the pressing game for a season comment, even with Liverpool - they're having a mini blip (by their excellent standards) and their players looked a bit tired, both mentally and physically, against Watford. Then of course Leeds' recent form.

 

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@Davefevs That’s a pretty spot on analysis there. 
 

Last season defence wasn’t really a problem, but this season with Webby going and Tomas injured, there’s been more upheaval. Much as a love Baker and his commitment, I think the fact he has played so much this season has added to the problems, he’ll always be a player that is one challenge away from another injury, due to the way he gets stuck in. I don’t think Baker is naturally a continuity player.

Spot on about about midfield, it has slowly got weaker and less affective and you could argue the recruitment hasn’t been successful - Eliasson only this season getting going, COD not fulfilling potential, Adelakun, Walsh, Watkins(injured a lot), Sammy all not hit any heights for us (yet for some) - Palmer? Paterson going then coming, Smith and Nagy injured and Massengo inconsistent/developing.

The question for me regarding continuity in midfield from that list, who would be your consistent picks? Especially centre mid, easy to say stick and make small tweaks, but with Nagy and Smith you can’t play unless fit. And do you persist with an inconsistent 18 year old? On the wings COD/Paterson blow hot and cold, Eliasson gets overrun some games, Weimann immensely works hard but too often lacks finesse and end product. 
 

Yes all the changes and tinkering clearly do not help, but when you start analysing and breaking down those choices, the cards you have available, you can see why a manager might find themselves mixing it up to find something that clicks there. 
 

Ultimately they’re his players though, so responsibility falls on him to produce with them - of course though we go back to SL and will leeway be given for the fact that you could argue the majority of those midfield signings have been (regardless of transfer fees) relative ‘punts’ in their own ways and in most cases players that might need developing, I.E takes time. 

Would you personally get rid in the summer if we’re still in the Championship next season?

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What bothers me as well is that next season will see a massive overhaul again.

Walsh, Semenyo, Morrell, Moore, O'Leary and Smith return.

Presume Williams, Henriksen and Benkovic will be gone. Afobe and Pereira, who knows?

Regulars will have 1 year remaining on their contracts such as Elliasson, Diedhiou, Paterson, Baker, Weimann and Hunt. At least a couple of those could leave.

Then what is the plan for Nagy, Palmer and Massengo?!

The starting line up in August could be unrecognisable. Will there be continuity? Will there be an identity? 

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20 hours ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

The default complaint of how can Eliasson not be starting when he's our most creative player doesn't always wash, as others have pointed out he's been poor in recent games.

Exactly this. He’s great when he is on form and creating chances. When he’s not, he’s a liability - because he doesn’t offer very much else. 

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