Villa's finances and FFP

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thing is, Debtors are classed as a current Asset- and my understanding of "Current" Asset means payable within 12 months or less.

That Debtors will include the payment or terms for the Stadium.

£56.7m which was...

By their own admission, it's a Current Asset being included as it is within Debtors is it not- and Current Assets are payable within 12 months?

To dig down a bit into the Aston Villa Limited.

 

Then the bit about Other Loans Receivable.

Further backing up certain bits. £56.7m, sale price- is this not maybe payment in the form of Loans?

Slightly confusing though- on one hand it says Repayable on Demand, but OTOH it says due within One Year.

That indeed is the other half of the Transaction- now the 12 month bit.

Surely that £56.7m should have been paid down given the payable within a year bit.

Oh look- still there!!

Not paid is it...despite Loans Receivable being under "Current Assets". Listed as £56.7m a year on. Appears NSWE Stadium Limited are paying interest...is it supposed to be the case that Aston Villa or NSWE lent the money to NSWE Stadium to pay for Villa Park?? 

As we can see, no pay down yet?

Number still remains the same.

Loan still remains outstanding it would appear.

Though I wonder if this reduction by a day is to hide something in terms of Villa Park, ownership etc- ie some kinda transfer back...or payment a day before even though there is no particular evidence with respect to it having been done within 12 months...

I still think there can be scope for EFL to analyse- something doesn't seem right...

[Mr Popodopolous]

Those NSWE Stadium Limited Accounts are out. Nothing much to write home about in some ways, but...

Creditor- Creditor that was due within one year still shows as outstanding (think the Interest due on the loan must be the difference there).

Depreciation of 2% seems normal  enough- but then again the loan still showing as outstanding...or is it a loophole where it gets paid on 31st May 2021 as it is technically a year even if a new period. EFL??

We're to believe £2.6m per year- for just 4 years- on a £56.7m Transaction is commercial and Arms length is it?? Percentage is alright but total return, plus lease length are a nonsense.

"Creditors falling due within one year"- well this is basically a year on. Hope the EFL are scrutinising such matters closely...Due within one year balanced on the other side by the same, -£1 + the Interest due to AVFC from this Transaction!

[peter w]

Look, we're not going down any time soon. Let it go. We've given you Lansbury, what more do you want?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Craig Shakespeare and we'll call it quits?

[Mr Popodopolous]

This might be academic and theoretical as opposed to having consequences any time soon but I found it interesting to note that had the 3 year period to 2020 been done as usual- answer was, it was not- that Swiss Ramble's forecast he did the other day was in line with mine.

For reminder, pre Covid times 2 years in the Championship and 1 in the PL- of whatever order- leads to an upper P&S Loss limit of £61m.

Delta- remember him- claimed AVFC would break even in the PL in 2019/20, while this is not factoring in Covid this was clearly not the case.

A thread with Kieran Maguire and SwissRamble on it btw...wow.

I said it was £67m, he said it was £66m- in ranges I had it down between £5-7m but anyway, the point is that it appears that an overspend to 2020 in isolation- now not being assessed to 2020 in isolation post Covid- might have occurred.

For further context, assuming that the rollup of the last 2 seasons occurs and that the differentials between PL and Championship upper limits remain the same, I make the loss to 2020/21 ie the revised due to Covid period no greater than £72m and to 2021/22 no greater than £88.5m.

The Regulations for FFP/P&S across the PL and Championship as written are aligned, so there is no real reason why the PL should treat it differently to how the EFL would- the Regulations were basically copied and pasted across by the EFL, you can't really get more aligned than that. Although I'm unsure about the £8m rather than £10m in 2018/19 but happy to check again- perhaps it was £9m rather than £8m or £10m.

Average PL FFP and inclusive of Covid exclusions loss as it stands for this combined period therefore needs to by my calculations, not exceed £43m- though maybe it's somewhere between £41m and £43m at the upper and lower end.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Small update.

Reports this morning that Grealish to Man City for £100m.

The system sort of works if it comes off, as that's £100m in the Profit on Disposal of Players.

My post if reports are accurate is aimed at the likes of eg Delta, and Aston Villa fans on Twitter who claim they can do what they want, FFP doesn't exist anymore etc on social media. Clubs have to sell players eventually.

I dare say Man City might be selling a few to help finance this and the possible Kane move- sell on clause from Sancho if one exists would also help.

[Red Army 75]

55 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Small update.

Reports this morning that Grealish to Man City for £100m.

The system sort of works if it comes off, as that's £100m in the Profit on Disposal of Players.

My post if reports are accurate is aimed at the likes of eg Delta, and Aston Villa fans on Twitter who claim they can do what they want, FFP doesn't exist anymore etc on social media. Clubs have to sell players eventually.

I dare say Man City might be selling a few to help finance this and the possible Kane move- sell on clause from Sancho if one exists would also help.

Just had look on Villas forum they are adamant he is staying and it’s all bullshit he wouldn’t leave villa. I would love it if he signs for Man City the meltdown would be colossal.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

30 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

Just had look on Villas forum they are adamant he is staying and it’s all bullshit he wouldn’t leave villa. I would love it if he signs for Man City the meltdown would be colossal.  

The reaction would be incredible.

I remember seeing it reported a few months back, and wondered at that time- they wouldn't be happy!

[CHIPLEY RED]

I would actually like to see him stay at Villa.

If the big 6 clubs just hoover up all the talent then we might as well have a European Super League.

The more clubs who are up the top challenging the better the league is for the fans. 

 

[Lrrr]

If Grealish wants to test himself at the top level he should want to move but he has 4 years left on his contract

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I would actually like to see him stay at Villa.

If the big 6 clubs just hoover up all the talent then we might as well have a European Super League.

The more clubs who are up the top challenging the better the league is for the fans. 

 

I have some sympathy with that view in general terms, except for one reason...

It's Villa! 

Do you not on a slightly more serious note, recall how insufferable they were at this level- in a way it was almost worth the FFP questions in order to get rid, except for a couple of decent posters who have posted on this thread.

[Harry]

3 hours ago, Red Army 75 said:

Just had look on Villas forum they are adamant he is staying and it’s all bullshit he wouldn’t leave villa. I would love it if he signs for Man City the meltdown would be colossal.  

Probably the same kind of idiots who were on here the other week saying Phillips will never leave Leeds. 
Treble the wages and play in the champions league and I’m sure the head is turned. 

[peter w]

 still can't see it happening this summer. I think Kane is their top priority and they're making noises about only being able to sign one or t'other. kane has already said his goodbyes at tottenham and he wants to leave and has said as much. Therefore, if he has to start the season at tottenham because they wouldn't allow him to move would further cause disruptions at a club that is just slowly starting to unravel. if anything this is going to make him more eager to get the deal sorted and go to Man city.

I'm not naive enough to think Grealish would never leave Villa but I would be surprised if it was this summer. When Man C, Liverpool, Man U have come in for our players in the last 10 yrs (Ashley Young, Barry, Milner, Downing) it really has been with a sense of foreboding because you know the inevitable is coming. However, I don't feel that way with Jack. We do not have to sell and we are looking at really trying to challenge. We can also offer wages that would not make Man City's offer any more exciting to a player. What Man City have is Champions League football.

Grealish is 25 (26 in a few months) and if Man City did put a bid in it is up to him whether he wants to go now, or give Villa one more year to see where we are come next season. If we are not in Europe or trading blows with the top teams consistently, then he'll go and with everyone's thanks and blessing. But given he's a massive Villa fan and loves playing for and captaining his club, how would he feel if Villa finished 3rd or something next season, knowing that if he'd have given it one more season he could have possible achieved his career aspirations with the club he loves?

Yes money talks, but we as a club do not need £100m (and after nearly going kaput when the tax bill payment was missed in 2018 I can barely believe I'm saying it), and we can offer whatever wages Man City want to offer (within reason obviously). So if a decision is made it really will be down to the player and whether he feels we will not be able to push on or whether he wants CL football now. With us signing Buendia and Young, bidding for Smith-Rowe, being linked with an Argentinian winger that is highly-rated, looking at Ward-Prowse/Romeu at Southampton - he can see we are really going to have a go at it.

Will he go? Ultimately I of course do not know. But I doubt it.

 

As for us going into meltdown if he goes - not really because our ambition has to meet his and we as a fan base are well aware of it. It would be one of disappointment and being gutted that he couldn't give us one more year because he is a truly special player and we want to build around him. It's not often your club can claim to have a player of truly world class talent and if he develops over the next couple of seasons that's what he will be.

Finally, as for us being insufferable when we were last down in the dank dark depths of lower league football...yes, yes we were. We were the billy big bollocks and having to stay there for one year was insufferable to us, by the time we spent a third year there we were more scared than anything. Scared we weren't what we believed we were. The most truly magnificent, historic, beautiful, glorious club that ever existed. a club that invented the league for you and were once, once, the best there was. We have risen to the top in Europe and plying our trade away from the top table is simply beneath us. 

It has been simply beneath us now for around 100 years save the odd year or two here and there. But beneath us it is. We shan't change but keep believing we have no equals and you are all lucky to have us. I guess we'd hate us too. Except we're Aston Villa. 

 

Altogether now, "Every week we follow...the boys in claret & bl....anyone? Anyone????????? Pfft I feel my kindred's pain with you lot.

[steveybadger]

4 hours ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I would actually like to see him stay at Villa.

If the big 6 clubs just hoover up all the talent then we might as well have a European Super League.

The more clubs who are up the top challenging the better the league is for the fans. 

 

Whilst I agree with the sentiment I think it already happens anyway.At least Grealish will be improving as a player in the Champions League which hopefully makes him better for England.

Plus it will annoy Villa fans  Although I did enjoy Peter W’s post above…

[YattonCity]

Heard a rumour we tried to sign Grealish on loan in 2014. Can anyone confirm that?

[Mr Popodopolous]

I too enjoyed the post by Peter W- on a player note, the more English players with CL exposure, the better I guess.

£100m fair? I think so.

[Mr Popodopolous]

This is nothing to do with yesterday but I don't get posts like this.

By all means argue that you comply but posts like this, or posts that say Villa are debt free which means no FFP issues- it's great to be debt free and helps with interest payments which go against FFP but the below...

"Villa didn't make a loss". What does that even mean, even when they sold the Ground and they got the main tranche/a large tranche of HS2 in their Promotion season, they made a loss- even when they got promoted to the PL and had TV money- okay Covid but even then a loss was made and a decent sized one at that- even after Covid deferrals and deductions and a few million more in HS2 compensation in 2019/20, they still made a loss.

[Mr Popodopolous]

We can probably close the book on this somewhat, unless there's a massive twist and Grealish stays.

Having to sell a prize asset from their academy is partial satisfaction but one wonders the size of the firesale had they missed out in 2019 or dropped back in 2019/20...that loss limit would've been £52.5m heading into 2020/21 without the scramble to the finish line and survival late on.

[kiwicolin]

Villa have just spent another £25 million on another player

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We can probably close the book on this somewhat, unless there's a massive twist and Grealish stays.

Having to sell a prize asset from their academy is partial satisfaction but one wonders the size of the firesale had they missed out in 2019 or dropped back in 2019/20...that loss limit would've been £52.5m heading into 2020/21 without the scramble to the finish line and survival late on.

They'd have had to sell Villa Park.................. again!

48 minutes ago, kiwicolin said:

Villa have just spent another £25 million on another player

Just spending some of the Grealish money. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, downendcity said:

They'd have had to sell Villa Park.................. again!

Just spending some of the Grealish money. 

Profits from what I've heard of Ground sale and leaseback now excluded from FFP calcs, unsure if this is also applicable in the PL...if they were in the EFL I'm sure Parry would take a tougher approach than Harvey did.

This is it- and given Everton are seemingly under restrictions I'm sure Aston Villa wouldn't be immune had they added Tuanzebe, Buendia, Bailey- and linked with a certain Tammy earlier in the summer- but kept all key assets including Grealish.

[AnAstonVillafan]

I'm not sure what your issue is here. Can we not improve our football team using the transfer market ?
Can we aspire to develop ourselves like Leicester City has to push towards a top six position ?

Because hanging on to out better players, and buying new ones is what its going to take. Looks like we will lose Grealish, but we must make sure that the club doesn't fall apart like the last time our best players jumped ship. That ended in relegation. There is an ambitious project in progress. You can't get a ticket at Villa Park right now because everything is sold out.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I've no problem, you sell Grealish and you invest- like Leicester and Wolves, thought they would invest a bit more this summer given past big sales (see Jota and some others last summer) and a good loss limit now in Season 4 of PL but that's their lookout.

If you keep Grealish and you spend the amounts you do without significant other player profit sales to compensate then there would be questions- if you sell Grealish, then it's case closed.

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

dropped back in 2019/20

That is the one thing that really gets me. That goal that wasn't given by goal line Tech, then not picked up by the tossers in the VAR room was a disgrace. Normally you'd say these things in a single game aren't the reason a team gets relegated. But because,  not only the Tech we rely on to say the ball crosses the line fail, but VAR ignored the most clear and obvious error of the entire season. 

They have been even luckier than Derby when it comes to relegation/FFP/Dodgy dealings

[Mr Popodopolous]

30 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

That is the one thing that really gets me. That goal that wasn't given by goal line Tech, then not picked up by the tossers in the VAR room was a disgrace. Normally you'd say these things in a single game aren't the reason a team gets relegated. But because,  not only the Tech we rely on to say the ball crosses the line fail, but VAR ignored the most clear and obvious error of the entire season. 

They have been even luckier than Derby when it comes to relegation/FFP/Dodgy dealings

I forgot about that- was very fortunate, arguably dented Sheffield United's chances of a European push too, momentum etc- they take a win into the run-in and who knows if the momentum carries them into the Europa League.

Either way, the odds are incredible- missed because the tech wasn't switched on correctly and I forget why VAR didn't get involved.

Forgetting Sheffield United for a moment, Bournemouth went down by 1 point with a superior GD- not that I have any great sympathy given that they too breached FFP on the way up under the old system but the luck bit is incredible.

[kiwicolin]

2 hours ago, downendcity said:

They'd have had to sell Villa Park.................. again!

Just spending some of the Grealish money. 

Which they haven't got yet . 

[AnAstonVillafan]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

That is the one thing that really gets me. That goal that wasn't given by goal line Tech, then not picked up by the tossers in the VAR room was a disgrace. Normally you'd say these things in a single game aren't the reason a team gets relegated. But because,  not only the Tech we rely on to say the ball crosses the line fail, but VAR ignored the most clear and obvious error of the entire season. 

They have been even luckier than Derby when it comes to relegation/FFP/Dodgy dealings

Everyone goes on about that goal vs Sheff Utd, but we had three big decisions given us against us during that season which cost us points as well. The worst case being the legitimate equaliser which was disallowed vs Crystal Palace.

Our FFP is fine, the EFL aspect behind us now. We don't do dodgy deals, and we didn't use luck to beat Arsenal, Everton and draw West Ham

[B1ackbird]

13 minutes ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

Everyone goes on about that goal vs Sheff Utd, but we had three big decisions given us against us during that season which cost us points as well. The worst case being the legitimate equaliser which was disallowed vs Crystal Palace.

Our FFP is fine, the EFL aspect behind us now. We don't do dodgy deals, and we didn't use luck to beat Arsenal, Everton and draw West Ham

So what, you were still effing lucky, someone has to benefit from a cock up like that, it just happened to be you, I'm glad it was you as we don't have to endure the Sky w******* when your on TV every week.

[Super]

2 hours ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

I'm not sure what your issue is here. Can we not improve our football team using the transfer market ?
Can we aspire to develop ourselves like Leicester City has to push towards a top six position ?

Because hanging on to out better players, and buying new ones is what its going to take. Looks like we will lose Grealish, but we must make sure that the club doesn't fall apart like the last time our best players jumped ship. That ended in relegation. There is an ambitious project in progress. You can't get a ticket at Villa Park right now because everything is sold out.

I actually have no idea why we care so much about your finances! It's all a bit strange.

[1960maaan]

34 minutes ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

Everyone goes on about that goal vs Sheff Utd, but we had three big decisions given us against us during that season which cost us points as well. The worst case being the legitimate equaliser which was disallowed vs Crystal Palace.

Our FFP is fine, the EFL aspect behind us now. We don't do dodgy deals, and we didn't use luck to beat Arsenal, Everton and draw West Ham

OK.
The goal is not a decision that went against anyone, it was a clear goal that the Tech missed and for some reason VAR were off having a coffee. Even the most biased fan would have to hold their hands up and concede that.  

As for FFP, I would hope it was ok, getting £100m a year is bound to take the edge off. But the point was mentioned where would you have been with out that promotion, or if you would have, deservedly, been relegated? You're fine now, and I think you will be for the foreseeable. But what I don't like is that the Prem seems to be some sort of shield . Bournemouth were probably the same when they went up, they threw loads of money at it and managed to hide in the Prem. A few years with the money that comes with it should sort things out a bit.