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Villa's finances and FFP


harvey54

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17 minutes ago, Delta said:

"Sadly"

Regardless of the fact that it was the correct decision.

I think that completely sums up your obsessive bias.

You stooped to hoping for a loophole in order for us to fail.  The same loopholes you accused Villa of using.

It was always going to end in tears for you.

Let's get a few things straight. I have in recent times developed an increasing dislike of Aston Villa due to the pervasive sense of entitlement that seems to come with them- or their fans.

The PL according to one report I read don't even have a points penalty tariff system in place- presumably as they never thought they would have to look at it, due to the TV money and high loss limits.

I'd be keen to see which accounting regulation, as I've looked quite far and wide, allows other loans under Debtors is able to be classed as a profit. Cannot find anything specific- Loan being the key word, that's a very unusual transaction on the face of it. NSWE Stadium Ltd directly owned by the owners, are paying Aston Villa Limited/NSWE UK for Villa Park- in the form of loans? Or is it that AVL/NSWE UK loan NSWE Stadium Ltd the money to buy Villa Park...

PL have finally cleared you it appears, in terms of the stadium sale- have the EFL? The statement was ambiguous in that respect, though the rules are harmonised I suspect it is fine as it stands.

Remember- it was fine for Derby as it stood last September and they even declared the EFL had approved it in writing in a statement at the time, it was fine for Sheffield Wednesday last July as well- again the FRS 102 regulation linked to this and I'll be more than satisfied from that angle.

Talking of NSWE Stadium Ltd, how come their accounts were delayed for 3 months? Loophole yes, but any reason for it?

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24 minutes ago, Delta said:

Big clubs are always branded as arrogant by tin pot clubs - It's the way of the world.

In the reverse, big clubs also view the fans of tin pot clubs as petty, small minded and irrelevant.

Tin Pot You may like to view us

Whats really amusing though is our fan base realise what we are and where we currently sit and anything better that comes will be extremely enjoyable

Whilst deluded bell ends like you following Clubs that think they are something they arn’t will continue to froth at the mouth if you arn’t where you think you are entitled to be

Most enjoyable to watch and laugh at 

 

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11 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Tin Pot You may like to view us

Whats really amusing though is our fan base realise what we are and where we currently sit and anything better that comes will be extremely enjoyable

Whilst deluded bell ends like you following Clubs that think they are something they arn’t will continue to froth at the mouth if you arn’t where you think you are entitled to be

Most enjoyable to watch and laugh at 

 

My favourite part is him calling us obsessed with Villa in his 75th and 76th post on our forum, the season after they left the division we're in.

Self awareness has never been a strong point with that lot tbh. Maybe he keeps it going because he drives past Bristol twice a year on his way to and from Pontins.

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@Delta must work at Villa. Surely no fan is that arsed about other fans disliking the club they support that much are they? 

If another club had a thread about us on their forum, I probably wouldn't know because I don't go searching for these things, but even if I did, I couldn't be arsed with the effort of signing up & posting on it. 

 

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52 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Let's get a few things straight. I have in recent times developed an increasing dislike of Aston Villa due to the pervasive sense of entitlement that seems to come with them- or their fans.

The PL according to one report I read don't even have a points penalty tariff system in place- presumably as they never thought they would have to look at it, due to the TV money and high loss limits.

I'd be keen to see which accounting regulation, as I've looked quite far and wide, allows other loans under Debtors is able to be classed as a profit. Cannot find anything specific- Loan being the key word, that's a very unusual transaction on the face of it. NSWE Stadium Ltd directly owned by the owners, are paying Aston Villa Limited/NSWE UK for Villa Park- in the form of loans? Or is it that AVL/NSWE UK loan NSWE Stadium Ltd the money to buy Villa Park...

PL have finally cleared you it appears, in terms of the stadium sale- have the EFL? The statement was ambiguous in that respect, though the rules are harmonised I suspect it is fine as it stands.

Remember- it was fine for Derby as it stood last September and they even declared the EFL had approved it in writing in a statement at the time, it was fine for Sheffield Wednesday last July as well- again the FRS 102 regulation linked to this and I'll be more than satisfied from that angle.

Talking of NSWE Stadium Ltd, how come their accounts were delayed for 3 months? Loophole yes, but any reason for it?

And I have (in recent times) developed an increasing dislike of Bristol City due to their fans pedantic, monotonous  "it's not fair" bleating 24/7 and their downright stupidity.  You have fueled the flames somewhat by posting nonsense/incorrect guesswork and most on here seem to hang onto your every word.

Personally, it's kept my interest in the Championship alive because it's always nice to see you lose.

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5 minutes ago, Delta said:

And I have (in recent times) developed an increasing dislike of Bristol City due to their fans pedantic, monotonous  "it's not fair" bleating 24/7 and their downright stupidity.  You have fueled the flames somewhat by posting nonsense/incorrect guesswork and most on here seem to hang onto your every word.

Personally, it's kept my interest in the Championship alive because it's always nice to see you lose.

? Hit a nerve has he.

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43 minutes ago, Delta said:

And I have (in recent times) developed an increasing dislike of Bristol City due to their fans pedantic, monotonous  "it's not fair" bleating 24/7 and their downright stupidity.  You have fueled the flames somewhat by posting nonsense/incorrect guesswork and most on here seem to hang onto your every word.

Personally, it's kept my interest in the Championship alive because it's always nice to see you lose.

Obsessed

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46 minutes ago, Delta said:

And I have (in recent times) developed an increasing dislike of Bristol City due to their fans pedantic, monotonous  "it's not fair" bleating 24/7 and their downright stupidity.  You have fueled the flames somewhat by posting nonsense/incorrect guesswork and most on here seem to hang onto your every word.

Personally, it's kept my interest in the Championship alive because it's always nice to see you lose.

Nonsense and incorrect guesswork?

I was correct on Derby and their stadium issue- in that there is/was a case to answer.

I was correct on Sheffield Wednesday- in that there is/was a case to answer.

I might be correct on Birmingham in that there is/was a case to answer- I remember calling that it wasn't the end of the issue for them and since that time, they have had a hearing- for a minor breach of regulations granted.

Who is to say that looked at afresh, there may not be questions for Villa to answer when back in the EFL?

Note- Questions to answer does not guarantee or even indicate/imply guilt but it's certainly a case worthy of some analysis by Parry- Parry and how he approaches FFP seems much different to Harvey, who was in change this time last season.

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1 hour ago, Delta said:

Big clubs are always branded as arrogant by tin pot clubs - It's the way of the world.

In the reverse, big clubs also view the fans of tin pot clubs as petty, small minded and irrelevant.

I think you might find that your last paragraph is the cause of what you say  the first, as is your use of "tin pot"! 

We are the Ronnie Corbett charecter from the famous sketch that also involved Messrs Cleese and Barker, in that we "know our place". 

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10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Nonsense and incorrect guesswork?

I was correct on Derby and their stadium issue.

I was correct on Sheffield Wednesday.

I might be correct on Birmingham- I remember calling that it wasn't the end of the issue for them and they have had a hearing for a minor breach of regulations granted.

Who is to say that looked at afresh, there may not be questions for Villa to answer when back in the EFL?

You've been wrong all the way through.  You've gone from "Villa paying scant regard to FFP" to now accepting that we've complied - Albeit you're still clutching at straws that the ground sale will be reviewed.

You've gone from stating that Grealish should have been sold if an offer of £3m came in for him to accepting that we were under no pressure to sell him.

You've gone from suggesting that Birmingham should have gone to arbitration to stating that it was right to punish them.

You've guessed and second guessed all the way through.  As I said previously, the sad thing is that so many pathetic sheep have hung onto your every word.

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39 minutes ago, Delta said:

You've been wrong all the way through.  You've gone from "Villa paying scant regard to FFP" to now accepting that we've complied - Albeit you're still clutching at straws that the ground sale will be reviewed.

You've gone from stating that Grealish should have been sold if an offer of £3m came in for him to accepting that we were under no pressure to sell him.

You've gone from suggesting that Birmingham should have gone to arbitration to stating that it was right to punish them.

You've guessed and second guessed all the way through.  As I said previously, the sad thing is that so many pathetic sheep have hung onto your every word.

Not quite sure, I said apparently complied. There's a subtle difference.

Not entirely true. That was anger talking in part, will look back at no pressure to sell him- we're quite possibly talking about the difference between Cashflow, FFP, different seasons etc.

Christ- Gone to Arbitration ie the CAS to try and follow what AC Milan did, to obtain the Balance Sheets so that others in the dock can be investigated, and if necessary charged and punished too- never thought it was wrong to punish Birmingham and if they get a few points again this time around then I'll say that's reasonable too, but I was not advocating Arbitration to avoid punishment but to drag others into the dock.

Nope, I've laid out evidence aplenty- with question marks- the surprise was that I was a bit conservative in some of my estimates with regards wages, felt sure these would have fallen even by a few million to reflect Parachute Payments- the fact that even notwithstanding promotion bonuses and managerial changes they did not, only adds to my hope it all goes horribly wrong.

No cash payment evident in the accounts for the stadium..how are Paper Transactions legit under FFP? Loans as payment- hmm seems a bit of a funny one...

Correct about Derby, Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham that the EFL would consider they have a case to answer. Not a bad hit rate.

PS- FFP does NOT include cash movements. How is a cash flow entry such as Other Loans as payment method that appears in Debtors legit to stick into profit- at least Profit after NBV deducted, from an FFP standpoint?

It's why I'm all for punishments in March or April as per T=Projected Accounts- if the ground sale scheme was devised after the Projected Accounts submitted in March, not included in these then dock the points based on the club submitted projected overspend.

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4 hours ago, Delta said:

The FFP thing has been driven out of all proportion with the nonsense that has been posted on the FFP thread.

Villa were the victim of a bluffer and a chancer (Xia) who gambled the club's entire existence on gaining promotion in the first 2 years.  No sensible person thinks we have a God given right to anything - However, if there are legitimate ways to circumvent a problem - Especially one created by a man who didn't care about the long term effects and who has long driven off into the sunset, then we have every right to implement it.

 

............which is the exact reason for the introduction of ffp rules in the first place!

 

 

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6 hours ago, italian dave said:

Spot on Ole. I've watched City at most away games over the years, and have always thought Villa is one of the worst grounds to visit as an away fan. Not from any irrational hatred of Villa, just the tiny, cramped areas, lack of toilets, awful food, seats with less legroom than the Dolman.

Never mind the Championship, there's a fair few grounds in League 1 and League 2 that offer a better experience to away fans. 

It's a matter of personal taste. I love the Villa ground because it still feels like an old stadium used to. It has substance and atmosphere and that's important for me. I'd have it every day over our new place which I detest. Soul less lego building 

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Do love the surprising interpretation of some of them.

Quote

 

Yes, the team he took over was in absolute disarray.

Chester was playing on one leg, we had no left back, we were playing 3 right backs in the defence, Tuanzebe and Grealish both had long term injuries, El Ghazi was poor and lacked confidence until Smith came in and made him look a different player, we had a lot of ageing players who were struggling with the workload of the Championship, we had one striker in Abraham, the atmosphere at home was toxic (CABBAGE), injuries galore, we couldn't spend much in January due to FFP and had to rely on loans, we had no quality keeper, none of us knew what our best team was, we had overpaid players like Bolasie and Kodjia who had little interest. And perhaps biggest problem of all - a squad who had been playing Bruceball.

But despite all this Smith made astute additions in January and guided us to a 10 game winning run to get us into the playoffs. He created a feel good atmosphere like I've never seen before just months after a toxic atmosphere. All in the space of a few months. Overachievement

 

Valid points except for one bit...

Kalinic- Croatia international goalie and Guilbert on permanent, nearly £10m combined according to one or two sites on fees alone.

Loan Hause, Mings and Carroll.

Granted a number of loans out in Jan, 5 or 6, including Guilbert but really- not able to spend much? All pretty relative isn't it!

Overachievement? Debatable, given the resources at disposal.

Now Sheffield United by far, and in some ways Norwich- this season closer to Sheffield United, Preston and Brentford- now that's overachievement, that's smashing it.

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3 hours ago, Delta said:

And I have (in recent times) developed an increasing dislike of Bristol City due to their fans pedantic, monotonous  "it's not fair" bleating 24/7 and their downright stupidity.  You have fueled the flames somewhat by posting nonsense/incorrect guesswork and most on here seem to hang onto your every word.

Personally, it's kept my interest in the Championship alive because it's always nice to see you lose.

Haha. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, what drives a presumably fully grown man to sign up to another clubs forum and bait them has always baffled me. You seem a very sad individual mr brummie.

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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not quite sure, I said apparently complied. There's a subtle difference.

Not entirely true. That was anger talking in part, will look back at no pressure to sell him- we're quite possibly talking about the difference between Cashflow, FFP, different seasons etc.

Christ- Gone to Arbitration ie the CAS to try and follow what AC Milan did, to obtain the Balance Sheets so that others in the dock can be investigated, and if necessary charged and punished too- never thought it was wrong to punish Birmingham and if they get a few points again this time around then I'll say that's reasonable too, but I was not advocating Arbitration to avoid punishment but to drag others into the dock.

Nope, I've laid out evidence aplenty- with question marks- the surprise was that I was a bit conservative in some of my estimates with regards wages, felt sure these would have fallen even by a few million to reflect Parachute Payments- the fact that even notwithstanding promotion bonuses and managerial changes they did not, only adds to my hope it all goes horribly wrong.

No cash payment evident in the accounts for the stadium..how are Paper Transactions legit under FFP? Loans as payment- hmm seems a bit of a funny one...

Correct about Derby, Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham that the EFL would consider they have a case to answer. Not a bad hit rate.

PS- FFP does NOT include cash movements. How is a cash flow entry such as Other Loans as payment method that appears in Debtors legit to stick into profit- at least Profit after NBV deducted, from an FFP standpoint?

It's why I'm all for punishments in March or April as per T=Projected Accounts- if the ground sale scheme was devised after the Projected Accounts submitted in March, not included in these then dock the points based on the club submitted projected overspend.

Pops - You whipped yourself up into a frenzy regarding Villa for many, many months - Probably around 3 years.

It was probably only less than 10 months ago that the penny dropped for you that we had the option of the ground sale.  Prior to that, we'd been tried in your kangaroo court and found guilty.

We were never in breach of FFP because the people who mattered always knew that the ground sale was going to take place.  It even allowed us a few quid to spend in January 2019, as you've pointed out.

Even now, you seem to be holding onto some faint hope that the ground sale figure will be challenged.  Let it go pal - The figures match up and that is the end of it.

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36 minutes ago, Delta said:

Pops - You whipped yourself up into a frenzy regarding Villa for many, many months - Probably around 3 years.

It was probably only less than 10 months ago that the penny dropped for you that we had the option of the ground sale.  Prior to that, we'd been tried in your kangaroo court and found guilty.

We were never in breach of FFP because the people who mattered always knew that the ground sale was going to take place.  It even allowed us a few quid to spend in January 2019, as you've pointed out.

Even now, you seem to be holding onto some faint hope that the ground sale figure will be challenged.  Let it go pal - The figures match up and that is the end of it.

To some decent extent, as you were the worst in certain aspects- you did this nonsense despite the benefit of Parachute Payments- that makes you worse in my book than the others. 3 years? Probably not, maybe more like a year- or maybe was early 2018/19 season.

It's a transaction that was excluded under the old regs in terms of the old figures- without it you'd have been snookered. You and others might still have been if the EFL had done their job correctly.

I wonder if the EFL knew...I wonder. As in knew in March when 3rd year accounts were submitted- the truth is, only the club and the EFL will know for sure.

The challenge to the ground figure without HS2 income would have put you on a bit of a tightrope, with respect to any adjustment to valuation, the numbers speak for themselves- as it is you'd need a downgrade of at least £20m for issues to arise- Pride Park was downgraded by £31-32m though but sadly that was broadly in line with my estimated figures for what it would come to when doing workings last year- no way is Hillsborough £60m either btw! I'd say half, maybe 60% of that? All IMO of course.

Well, I have but one problem with this transaction- it's not even so much the price or profit margin though I'm sure the EFL will want to check the value etc. Other Loans Receivable counting as Profit in FFP terms, being applicable to stick in the P&L Account...I'm not so sure?

It's unclear though, having read the rules and re-read them- maybe it's a case of 'All that is not forbidden is allowed', something like that. 

Operating Income? Wondering how exactly it should be classified in the P&L account.

Other Loans Payable though strikes me as suitable for the Balance Sheet- possibly the Cash Flow- but definitely the Balance Sheet, but how it translates into P&L is a bit of a puzzle.

There is though a regulation in the EFL ones- good faith.

The good faith rule seems like a bit of a catch-all. I wonder if that could be utilised if there is an issue with the profit on the ground sale being via Other Loans Receivable.

Good faith aside.

Okay, say there was an exceptional profit in the Projected Accounts but the EFL didn't follow up correctly- just signed it off as compliant- not the transaction itself but the manner in which it has been carried out.

That's their mistake right? Well yes, but if they authorised it in error because of how it was done they can still charge, with respect to correction. How do I know? Because that's exactly what Derby allege to be the case.

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Oh dear @Delta once more you fail wholly to understand my CAS argument.

Put simply, AC Milan went to CAS in July or August 2018. They were seeking to get access to the balance sheets of Inter, Man City and PSG.

I'd argue it's a matter or legal debate as to whether an EFL based legal dispute could go to the CAS but worth a look.

As the highest arbitrator in Sport, you've got to wonder- fact it's in Switzerland is a counterpoint and could be decisive.

My reasoning AT THAT TIME was NOT so Birmingham could seek to get others who may well have breached treated in an equitable manner.

Equitable punishment/charging NOT escaping punishment. Big difference. I was never pro Birmingham getting off the hook.

Perhaps you would explain where in FRS 102 it shows Other Loans receivable which is under Debtors as applicable for profit. 

PS, again. 

Right about Derby and their stadium valuation overcooked. 

Right about curiosity over Sheffield Wednesday and THEIR actions. I called certain things 2 weeks before it hit the press on here. At least questioned them. 

Right that Birmingham may not have been in the clear, I recall questioning this based on the strength of their BSH Accounts released at the end of September 2019.

May well be wrong on Aston Villa but you essentially had your cake and ate it. I'm sure I also suggested at some point HS2 compensation may play a role. The stadium was the decisive factor though.

@Davefevs

Purslow I reckon. You can feel the pomposity yet pissyness at the same time- fits that club but especially fanbase like a glove. :yes:

(Don't really think it's him obvs but clearly a vested interest/an employee). 

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One more thing. 

Last year I crunched numbers based on a likely fall in Parachute Payments, using Transfermarkt for my guide.

Granted this was earlier 2019 so was blindsided by HS2 compensation in Year 2 and stadium sale, as in this was last February or March pre stadium sale or even any news on Derby's, pre 2nd HS2 legitimate compensation payment arose.

What a scoop it'd have been BTW had a journo looked around the land registry last February or March and published the Derby story. 'Derby County sell stadium'.

Would have shone a light on the practice. Think I'll check Stoke and Blackburn for this tomorrow on the Land Registry. :whistle2:

Would've raised eyebrows had it hit the headlines pre Derby releasing accounts etc. 

However, stripping this out plus your costs of promotion and paying off Lerner, I projected Aston Villa's losses to be in the range of £60-64m. This was inclusive of and before removal of HS2 allowances. 

Not ******* far off was it!!

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I am at a loss how anyone would use such slurs and, frankly, gutter and amoebic language, to further an argument. To someone of average intelligence and above it would always be considered counter productive to what, as far as I can see, has been a dedicated discourse from Pop. 

Whether he is right or wrong about certain aspects of each of these clubs' 'misdemeanors' is not my point, foul language most certainly is.

Admittedly, I have not read the entire thread but what would be more interesting to all of us would be for Villa and Derby fans to offer real credence to their responses. It would certainly make for a far more informative thread. I think I speak for all that their replies, in such a vain, would be highly respected.

Hope we can get back to that.

 

 

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Agree Hav, robust yet respectful debate. 

I'd like to compare and contrast. 

Last year, a poster named @DerbyFan joined this place largely to debate FFP. Dunno if you recall? Anyway they were largely a constructive contributor from memory.

Put in some useful points too eg Derby not having an arena, including that, conferencing etc  pushing the price up or potentially. Aerodrome, house prices. All worthy to add. 

Shame they went really as they seemed a good addition on this subject, mind you so is the other  Derby fan. 

Delta though. Can't work out if they're an Aston Villa fan who has little clue  throwing their toys out, an Aston Villa fan with material to disprove my argument but who cannot disprove my argument as they have a vested interest and don't want to let sources etc slip. 

Or, an Aston Villa employee itself and not talking a match day casusl but an employee who might be privy to such info but dare not publish it. 

C) Would be a matter for the press or at least football gossip or FFP journos.

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree Hav, robust yet respectful debate. 

I'd like to compare and contrast. 

Last year, a poster named @DerbyFan joined this place largely to debate FFP. Dunno if you recall? Anyway they were largely a constructive contributor from memory.

Put in some useful points too eg Derby not having an arena, including that, conferencing etc  pushing the price up or potentially. Aerodrome, house prices. All worthy to add. 

Shame they went really as they seemed a good addition on this subject, mind you so is the other  Derby fan. 

Delta though. Can't work out if they're an Aston Villa fan who has little clue  throwing their toys out, an Aston Villa fan with material to disprove my argument but who cannot disprove my argument as they have a vested interest and don't want to let sources etc slip. 

Or, an Aston Villa employee itself and not talking a match day casusl but an employee who might be privy to such info but dare not publish it. 

C) Would be a matter for the press or at least football gossip or FFP journos.

On the Villa forum, when the issue of our ffp thread was raised and mention was made of our discussion re Villa's ffp situation, one poster described you as a "bell end".

While you might well be in lots of other ways :), as far as this thread is concerned I can only say that Im continually impressed with the detailed information you provide to support your arguments, and while I can understand a degree of antipathy towards Villa, have to say that your posts are always constructive. I would also say that you have conceded on more than one occasion, when confronted with information that counters points you have tried to make ( especially from derby fan).

I would be interested if Villa fas describing you as a bell end, or making similarly disparaging comments about you or this thread would have the faintest idea the detail of ffp assessment let alone be able to conduct a debate with you as to the validity, or otherwise of Villa's accounts as far as ffp is concerned. I like to think that I have a decent understanding of financial stuff and company accounts, but confess that I find some of your posts hard to comprehend, only because you are dressing details beyond my proper understanding. 

We all know that Delta is legally correct, in that the sale of Villa Park did not break the ffp rules. However, we also know that Bill Clinton was proved correct when he said that he did not "have sexual relations with that woman"............................................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

........................ although I think that many found that equally hard to swallow!

:shocking: 

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9 minutes ago, downendcity said:

On the Villa forum, when the issue of our ffp thread was raised and mention was made of our discussion re Villa's ffp situation, one poster described you as a "bell end".

While you might well be in lots of other ways :), as far as this thread is concerned I can only say that Im continually impressed with the detailed information you provide to support your arguments, and while I can understand a degree of antipathy towards Villa, have to say that your posts are always constructive. I would also say that you have conceded on more than one occasion, when confronted with information that counters points you have tried to make ( especially from derby fan).

I would be interested if Villa fas describing you as a bell end, or making similarly disparaging comments about you or this thread would have the faintest idea the detail of ffp assessment let alone be able to conduct a debate with you as to the validity, or otherwise of Villa's accounts as far as ffp is concerned. I like to think that I have a decent understanding of financial stuff and company accounts, but confess that I find some of your posts hard to comprehend, only because you are dressing details beyond my proper understanding. 

We all know that Delta is legally correct, in that the sale of Villa Park did not break the ffp rules. However, we also know that Bill Clinton was proved correct when he said that he did not "have sexual relations with that woman"............................................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

........................ although I think that many found that equally hard to swallow!

:shocking: 

It's because he is unable/unwilling to look at the situation objectively.  He is constantly looking to find faults despite being unaware of the overall situation.

Regarding being "legally correct" - There is no middle ground. You either are or you aren't.  Villa knew all along that there was an option to sell an asset.  The amount of money now due in rent makes the transaction an excellent business deal for both parties.  I've asked before but I'll ask again: How does it compare with what you pay for your ground?  It is not my problem that you all only discovered the ground sale option at the 11th hour.  You've somehow convinced yourselves that we stumbled on a loophole whereas in reality, it was a calculated transaction that was probably in place for years.

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6 hours ago, havanatopia said:

I am at a loss how anyone would use such slurs and, frankly, gutter and amoebic language, to further an argument. To someone of average intelligence and above it would always be considered counter productive to what, as far as I can see, has been a dedicated discourse from Pop. 

Whether he is right or wrong about certain aspects of each of these clubs' 'misdemeanors' is not my point, foul language most certainly is.

Admittedly, I have not read the entire thread but what would be more interesting to all of us would be for Villa and Derby fans to offer real credence to their responses. It would certainly make for a far more informative thread. I think I speak for all that their replies, in such a vain, would be highly respected.

Hope we can get back to that.

 

 

Well if you had actually bothered to read the thread in question, you would see that I have debated civilly with Pops and have indeed corrected him and pointed him in the right direction.

It is only on this thread where I have been attacked by ignoramuses who wouldn't know what FFP was if it hit them in the face.

I'm happy to debate with anyone but if some chimp resorts to calling me a C, I will respond accordingly. 

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13 minutes ago, Delta said:

It's because he is unable/unwilling to look at the situation objectively.  He is constantly looking to find faults despite being unaware of the overall situation.

Regarding being "legally correct" - There is no middle ground. You either are or you aren't.  Villa knew all along that there was an option to sell an asset.  The amount of money now due in rent makes the transaction an excellent business deal for both parties.  I've asked before but I'll ask again: How does it compare with what you pay for your ground?  It is not my problem that you all only discovered the ground sale option at the 11th hour.  You've somehow convinced yourselves that we stumbled on a loophole whereas in reality, it was a calculated transaction that was probably in place for years.

@Mr Popodopolous Wasn’t this a rule, until it mysteriously got left out of the revised set of rules?  Remember Andy Holt at Accrington saying he never was offered a vote to remove it, i.e. a very convenient cut and paste error.

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree Hav, robust yet respectful debate. 

I'd like to compare and contrast. 

Last year, a poster named @DerbyFan joined this place largely to debate FFP. Dunno if you recall? Anyway they were largely a constructive contributor from memory.

Put in some useful points too eg Derby not having an arena, including that, conferencing etc  pushing the price up or potentially. Aerodrome, house prices. All worthy to add. 

Shame they went really as they seemed a good addition on this subject, mind you so is the other  Derby fan. 

Delta though. Can't work out if they're an Aston Villa fan who has little clue  throwing their toys out, an Aston Villa fan with material to disprove my argument but who cannot disprove my argument as they have a vested interest and don't want to let sources etc slip. 

Or, an Aston Villa employee itself and not talking a match day casusl but an employee who might be privy to such info but dare not publish it. 

C) Would be a matter for the press or at least football gossip or FFP journos.

Pops - I have not thrown my toys out.  In fact it was only a couple of days ago that I had to point you in the right direction regarding the ground payment/cash injection from the owners.  The day before, I had to show you that the ground was listed as an investment property.  I had, had the benefit of reading the accounts for about an hour at that point.  You appear to have been trawling over them on an almost daily basis for 12 months.

I'm not sure what argument you think you've proved because you have been WRONG all the way through.

At the time of the Birmingham case, when you suggested arbitration, you weren't even aware that they had been under a soft embargo.  Like most of your posts, you posted first and discovered the facts afterwards.  You've done it all the way through the Villa thread.  Had you known at the outset (rather than last May) that we had a £36m cushion from the ground sale, would you still have made your silly claim that we should have sold Grealish for £3m because every penny goes towards bringing us back in line with FFP.

Like a lot of other Villa fans, I've read your posts with amusement for a long time.  I joined to correct you and in further displays of ignorance, you have convinced yourself that I don't know what is going on.  You have no argument to disprove because it has been disproved - Still you continue, hoping for silly straws to be clutched like a ground revaluation.  I keep on telling you - Let it go.  When a team like Villa fall into the Championship, they will always have an unfair advantage on their rivals - The training facilities on offer, the ground, the amount of fans who watch us, the wages, the spotlight, the history etc, etc.  No doubt those facts will be deemed as arrogance as well by the deluded masses on here.

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On 05/03/2020 at 11:11, Delta said:

Of course there are more toilets - Hillsborough holds 4,000, Villa's upper tier holds what? 1,500?

You go in a packed Leppings Lane and you can't move - Same as Wolves.  There  is NO space.  Sounds like the last time you went in a packed Leppings Lane is more than 20 years ago so maybe your memory has been affected - Or maybe you're just comparing it to a time when you took your usual 1500-2000 when a half full area is obviously going to give you more pace.  I can guarantee that a full Leppings Lane is a nightmare - Made worse by stewards at every entrance not allowing you to enter the ground and walk across to your seat, instead insisting that you stay downstairs and fight your way through the melee untill you get to the correct entrance.

Same with QPR - Bigger allocation = more toilets.

So, why do you think the stewards at Hillsborough are more conscious of safety than elsewhere....................

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