Villa's finances and FFP

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Delta said:

Would that be because you'd sold out of wheelchair seats or are you saying that Villa don't provide wheelchair spaces?

Because the only wheelchair section available to away supporters is in a mixed (home and away) section.  That may have changed now, but wasn’t in 17/18 season.

Home supporters have their own sections too.

[Portland Bill]

59 minutes ago, Delta said:

And how sad are you, posting on a thread that has nothing to do with your football team?

How many threads about you lot do you think you'd find on a Villa forum?

You lot have worked yourselves into a right frenzy over AVFC for some bizarre reason best known to yourselves.

I can honestly say I’ve got zero interest in your club. You are now an non entity club who will go between the money league and the Championship on a regular basis. It’s 40 years since anyone thought you were a big club. Your just on a par with us and many other Championship clubs, and I don’t see that changing in my lifetime. 

Ive no doubt we will be playing you next season, as we will Birmingham, Sheffield Wednesday, Stoke etc, you are just another one of those failing clubs, get use to it.  

[poland_exile]

Got to be honest, it does seem that some of us on here have a bit of an obsession with Villa!? (and Leeds while we're at it). Many keep referring to the 'arrogance' of their fans, but let's have a look at how self-entitled many of us have become - a nice new stand and a couple of decent results over the years and all of a sudden we're demanding top flight football as if we've a God-given right to it. It's not just a minority of us that have lost sight of the ground either. 

That's not to excuse Villa for taking the mick with their accounting, but again, as some note, we can hardly whine when our own club has been lavishly propped up by SL. 

 

[Olé]

7 hours ago, Harry said:

It’s like being in a maximum security prison. No light, no air, 1 stinking tiny 1960’s toilet, 1 tiny ‘refreshment’ shack. It’s the single worst experience I’ve ever had

And yet still manages to be more pleasant than the nearest pub and the entire area around the ground 

[Olé]

6 hours ago, Delta said:

Sheffield Wednesday is twice as bad as Villa as well.  What about Fulham? Rammed and not even covered, likewise Crystal Palace.  Preston, Millwall & Derby are also poor.

You're not seriously suggesting that Hillsborough is a worse experience than Villa's upper tier, or that Preston and Millwall are worse too? All vastly better experiences in my opinion, more space, more toilets, more catering. And I imagine most would trade a lack of cover at Fulham for all the space compared to your corridor, not to mention location.

The only away ends in the top two divisions that are as bad are Luton (obviously), Watford (for space) and similarly QPR upper tier is probably the closest experience to yours, but still manages to fit a few more toilets and kiosks in. Brentford isn't great for either but everyone likes a trip to Griffin Park and doesn't pretend it's anything other than what it is.

[italian dave]

3 hours ago, Olé said:

You're not seriously suggesting that Hillsborough is a worse experience than Villa's upper tier, or that Preston and Millwall are worse too? All vastly better experiences in my opinion, more space, more toilets, more catering. And I imagine most would trade a lack of cover at Fulham for all the space compared to your corridor, not to mention location.

The only away ends in the top two divisions that are as bad are Luton (obviously), Watford (for space) and similarly QPR upper tier is probably the closest experience to yours, but still manages to fit a few more toilets and kiosks in. Brentford isn't great for either but everyone likes a trip to Griffin Park and doesn't pretend it's anything other than what it is.

Spot on Ole. I've watched City at most away games over the years, and have always thought Villa is one of the worst grounds to visit as an away fan. Not from any irrational hatred of Villa, just the tiny, cramped areas, lack of toilets, awful food, seats with less legroom than the Dolman.

Never mind the Championship, there's a fair few grounds in League 1 and League 2 that offer a better experience to away fans. 

[downendcity]

7 hours ago, poland_exile said:

Got to be honest, it does seem that some of us on here have a bit of an obsession with Villa!? (and Leeds while we're at it). Many keep referring to the 'arrogance' of their fans, but let's have a look at how self-entitled many of us have become - a nice new stand and a couple of decent results over the years and all of a sudden we're demanding top flight football as if we've a God-given right to it. It's not just a minority of us that have lost sight of the ground either. 

That's not to excuse Villa for taking the mick with their accounting, but again, as some note, we can hardly whine when our own club has been lavishly propped up by SL. 

 

Don't think you can compare us to Villa with regards to finances.

I think the difference is that our owner foresaw the impact that ffp would have and as a result, a few seasons back put in place the often maligned strategy to make the club more sustainable and so that it would not break the new ffp limits. Yes, he has continued to "prop up" the club, as do the vast majority of championship owners.Our fans that do feel entitled bemoan this strategy from time to time, as, other than LJ, they see it as the reason why we do not compete better because we keep selling our best players.

On the other hand Villa, following their premier league relegation carried on regardless from a financial standpoint, in an attempt to secure a quick return to the premier league. Despite parachute payments during the 3 years of the new ffp cycle, they still had to resort to selling Villa park as  the only way of avoiding a huge ffp punishment - that would most probably have resulted in them still being in the championship now. 

From one of Delta's posts on the ffp thread I think he says that Vila's owners have injected £100m+ in the last season. That is as much as SL put into City in a 10 year period!

 

 

 

 

 

[Delta]

4 hours ago, Olé said:

You're not seriously suggesting that Hillsborough is a worse experience than Villa's upper tier, or that Preston and Millwall are worse too? All vastly better experiences in my opinion, more space, more toilets, more catering. And I imagine most would trade a lack of cover at Fulham for all the space compared to your corridor, not to mention location.

The only away ends in the top two divisions that are as bad are Luton (obviously), Watford (for space) and similarly QPR upper tier is probably the closest experience to yours, but still manages to fit a few more toilets and kiosks in. Brentford isn't great for either but everyone likes a trip to Griffin Park and doesn't pretend it's anything other than what it is.

Of course there are more toilets - Hillsborough holds 4,000, Villa's upper tier holds what? 1,500?

You go in a packed Leppings Lane and you can't move - Same as Wolves.  There  is NO space.  Sounds like the last time you went in a packed Leppings Lane is more than 20 years ago so maybe your memory has been affected - Or maybe you're just comparing it to a time when you took your usual 1500-2000 when a half full area is obviously going to give you more pace.  I can guarantee that a full Leppings Lane is a nightmare - Made worse by stewards at every entrance not allowing you to enter the ground and walk across to your seat, instead insisting that you stay downstairs and fight your way through the melee untill you get to the correct entrance.

Same with QPR - Bigger allocation = more toilets.

[BRISTOL86]

10 hours ago, Delta said:

And how sad are you, posting on a thread that has nothing to do with your football team?

How many threads about you lot do you think you'd find on a Villa forum?

You lot have worked yourselves into a right frenzy over AVFC for some bizarre reason best known to yourselves.

I think every club in the land that tries to do things the right way hates Villa and the way they went about getting back to ‘where they belong’. Not just us  

But keep lapping up the spin that they’re putting on your situation. What are you going to do when you inevitably overstretch (again) and have to sell the stadium (again)?

[Delta]

1 minute ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I think every club in the land that tries to do things the right way hates Villa and the way they went about getting back to ‘where they belong’. Not just us  

No - It's mainly you because we took Kodjia off you and Sheff Wed because we refused to loan them a player that they expected us to subsidise his wages on.

I've honestly never known anything like your lot though - It really is quite strange.

[Delta]

9 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

I can honestly say I’ve got zero interest in your club. You are now an non entity club who will go between the money league and the Championship on a regular basis. It’s 40 years since anyone thought you were a big club. Your just on a par with us and many other Championship clubs, and I don’t see that changing in my lifetime. 

Ive no doubt we will be playing you next season, as we will Birmingham, Sheffield Wednesday, Stoke etc, you are just another one of those failing clubs, get use to it.  

OMG - It's the second coming of Nostradamus.  Why are you telling me this?  Am I supposed to be somehow bothered/interested in the ratings of some crank from a mid table Championship club?

[BRISTOL86]

8 minutes ago, Delta said:

No - It's mainly you because we took Kodjia off you and Sheff Wed because we refused to loan them a player that they expected us to subsidise his wages on.

I've honestly never known anything like your lot though - It really is quite strange.

Getting the fee we did for Kodjia was one of the best bits of business we’ve ever done, so that’s a bizarre statement. We already had Tammy though the door who was miles better and cost us next to nothing  

It’s the arrogance, I work with tons of Villa and I’ve never met a more arrogant lot. Limped into the Prem after selling your house and taking it down the casino. Keep burying your head in the sand and telling yourself that’s a good thing, it’ll bite you on the arse. 

If you come back down, selling Grealish will keep the wolves from the door I suspect, but for how long? 

[cider-manc]

The issue I have with Villa is not that they ignore/dubiously work around FFP, as plenty of clubs do... Its the fact that their fans seem to think they have a God given right to do so.

They very nearly went bankrupt, their fans cried about how hard done by they were - Yet their model is "oh well someone else rich has bought us and they are now going to pump 100 million into the team because we are massive" and so the cycle repeats itself. The fact they then went up just leaves a sour taste, but the truth is with the team they had they should have run away with the division.

They aren't alone in this and I think it will take a big club going under (I wouldnt wish this on anyone..) before it changes unfortunately.

As for the away day experience - the lower isn't bad. But everything from the stewards to the space in the concourse is awful in the upper.

3 minutes ago, Delta said:

No - It's mainly you because we took Kodjia off you and Sheff Wed because we refused to loan them a player that they expected us to subsidise his wages on.

I've honestly never known anything like your lot though - It really is quite strange.

You think we are strange? Yet your fan base continuously trolls our manager because he complimented the way you create an atmosphere/put pressure on the refs and suggested we should have fans behind both goals to try and emulate it.

3 minutes ago, Delta said:

OMG - It's the second coming of Nostradamus.  Why are you telling me this?  Am I supposed to be somehow bothered/interested in the ratings of some crank from a mid table Championship club?

Yet you are on a mid table championship clubs forum reading our opinions.

Jeez you're right... we are strange.

[Delta]

2 minutes ago, cider-manc said:

The issue I have with Villa is not that they ignore/dubiously work around FFP, as plenty of clubs do... Its the fact that their fans seem to think they have a God given right to do so.

They very nearly went bankrupt, their fans cried about how hard done by they were - Yet their model is "oh well someone else rich has bought us and they are now going to pump 100 million into the team because we are massive" and so the cycle repeats itself. The fact they then went up just leaves a sour taste, but the truth is with the team they had they should have run away with the division.

They aren't alone in this and I think it will take a big club going under (I wouldnt wish this on anyone..) before it changes unfortunately.

As for the away day experience - the lower isn't bad. But everything from the stewards to the space in the concourse is awful in the upper.

You think we are strange? Yet your fan base continuously trolls our manager because he complimented the way you create an atmosphere/put pressure on the refs and suggested we should have fans behind both goals to try and emulate it.

Yet you are on a mid table championship clubs forum reading our opinions.

Jeez you're right... we are strange.

The FFP thing has been driven out of all proportion with the nonsense that has been posted on the FFP thread.

Villa were the victim of a bluffer and a chancer (Xia) who gambled the club's entire existence on gaining promotion in the first 2 years.  No sensible person thinks we have a God given right to anything - However, if there are legitimate ways to circumvent a problem - Especially one created by a man who didn't care about the long term effects and who has long driven off into the sunset, then we have every right to implement it.

No Villa fan thinks as you have posted - You have just posted that to add value to your story.  Most know just how incredibly lucky we were to have been bought by 2 such fantastic owners.  It was only once the dust had settled that it transpired how reckless Xia had been.

Regarding the away day experience - I'm glad awful.  I hope fans have a terrible time when they come here.

[BRISTOL86]

18 minutes ago, Delta said:

Am I supposed to be somehow bothered/interested in the ratings of some crank from a mid table Championship club?

If you’re not then it’s a bit odd that you’re even a member here...think you’re lost, must be having your head in the sand  

[Delta]

11 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Getting the fee we did for Kodjia was one of the best bits of business we’ve ever done, so that’s a bizarre statement. We already had Tammy though the door who was miles better and cost us next to nothing  

It’s the arrogance, I work with tons of Villa and I’ve never met a more arrogant lot. Limped into the Prem after selling your house and taking it down the casino. Keep burying your head in the sand and telling yourself that’s a good thing, it’ll bite you on the arse. 

If you come back down, selling Grealish will keep the wolves from the door I suspect, but for how long? 

Do you even know how much top Championship strikers go for?  Keep kidding yourself that you got a good deal - It was such a good deal it's probably the reason you missed out on the play offs in the past 2 seasons.

Villa are on target to breaking even this season.  I don't think you'll see the mess of a couple of years ago again.

Go down & we'll sell Grealish and probably a couple of others for tens of millions.  Coupled with the parachute payment, we'll be the most stable club in the division - We might even have a look at your team to see if there's anyone worth taking.  From what i saw of your recent match against Blues, that is unlikely though.  We will also have a much stronger side than the one we went up with (minus Jack of course)

[Lew-T]

This Delta fella has just proved my point further. I’m yet to see a decent Villa fan.

They really are something else. See you next season shagger, @Delta and enjoy your weekend in Brean.

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 hours ago, sticks 1969 said:

How’s life living in BREAN ? Or are you one of the 10% that actually live in the midlands 

 

8 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

If you’re not then it’s a bit odd that you’re even a member here...think you’re lost, must be having your head in the sand  

Nice 86 !

Commendable subtlety!

You have to commend Delta - to even have an internet connection in one of those mobile homes, in all likelihood means he lives in a newish one 

[BRISTOL86]

16 minutes ago, Delta said:

Do you even know how much top Championship strikers go for?  Keep kidding yourself that you got a good deal - It was such a good deal it's probably the reason you missed out on the play offs in the past 2 seasons.

Just shows the gulf between what you think you know and what you actually know about us....

We replaced Kodjia (goal every 2.6 games for us) with Abraham (goal every 1.8 games) so quite how you’ve equated upgrading a striker to missing out on the playoffs is some creative maths even by Villa’s standards. 

Then the following season we had Bobby Reid up top who again was more prolific than Kodjia.

 

[cider-manc]

12 minutes ago, Delta said:

The FFP thing has been driven out of all proportion with the nonsense that has been posted on the FFP thread.

Villa were the victim of a bluffer and a chancer (Xia) who gambled the club's entire existence on gaining promotion in the first 2 years.  No sensible person thinks we have a God given right to anything - However, if there are legitimate ways to circumvent a problem - Especially one created by a man who didn't care about the long term effects and who has long driven off into the sunset, then we have every right to implement it.

No Villa fan thinks as you have posted - You have just posted that to add value to your story.  Most know just how incredibly lucky we were to have been bought by 2 such fantastic owners.  It was only once the dust had settled that it transpired how reckless Xia had been.

Regarding the away day experience - I'm glad awful.  I hope fans have a terrible time when they come here.

A quick look at twitter at the time suggested otherwise about your fan bases feelings on the matter. I also grew up in the west midlands and have lots of friends from school who are villa fans and they also confirmed my feelings on this.

Funny how one owner is a bluffer for gambling on a two year plan when they failed, yet the ones who bet and succeeded are fantastic owners. I wonder how you would of felt about them if you hadn't gone up for a couple of years and once again were struggling financially. 84 million loses suggests you would of been.

10 minutes ago, Delta said:

Do you even know how much top Championship strikers go for?  Keep kidding yourself that you got a good deal - It was such a good deal it's probably the reason you missed out on the play offs in the past 2 seasons.

Villa are on target to breaking even this season.  I don't think you'll see the mess of a couple of years ago again.

Go down & we'll sell Grealish and probably a couple of others for tens of millions.  Coupled with the parachute payment, we'll be the most stable club in the division - We might even have a look at your team to see if there's anyone worth taking.  From what i saw of your recent match against Blues, that is unlikely though.  We will also have a much stronger side than the one we went up with (minus Jack of course)

The fact that 3 forwards you have purchased (Kodjia, Hogan and Mccormack) are still within the top 10 purchases in championship history suggests that it is your club that doesn't know how much a top championship striker goes for....

I'd also like to point out that we replaced JK with Tammy Abraham and then the player we replaced him with (whilst not being better) was Bobby Reid. Both of whom scored more goals for us than Kodjia did for you. 

[Delta]

4 minutes ago, cider-manc said:

A quick look at twitter at the time suggested otherwise about your fan bases feelings on the matter. I also grew up in the west midlands and have lots of friends from school who are villa fans and they also confirmed my feelings on this.

Funny how one owner is a bluffer for gambling on a two year plan when they failed, yet the ones who bet and succeeded are fantastic owners. I wonder how you would of felt about them if you hadn't gone up for a couple of years and once again were struggling financially. 84 million loses suggests you would of been.

The fact that 3 forwards you have purchased (Kodjia, Hogan and Mccormack) are still within the top 10 purchases in championship history suggests that it is your club that doesn't know how much a top championship striker goes for....

I'd also like to point out that we replaced JK with Tammy Abraham and then the player we replaced him with (whilst not being better) was Bobby Reid. Both of whom scored more goals for us than Kodjia did for you. 

Not sure why you think that our new owners gambled?

How convenient that historic Twitter posts are your source.   quick read of the posts on fans websites provide a different account.

It really is ridiculous the way you all paint this silly picture of Villa fans going around with their eyes shut, thinking we have divine rights to this, that and the other and thinking we are above FFP.

I just put it down to little man syndrome.

[cider-manc]

4 minutes ago, Delta said:

Not sure why you think that our new owners gambled?

How convenient that historic Twitter posts are your source.   quick read of the posts on fans websites provide a different account.

It really is ridiculous the way you all paint this silly picture of Villa fans going around with their eyes shut, thinking we have divine rights to this, that and the other and thinking we are above FFP.

I just put it down to little man syndrome.

It may shock you to know that 84 million loses are not sustainable in the championship. They gambled on spending big (Tammy earning a reported 55k a week basic for starters) with the one last chance you had before parachute payments stopped and still had to sell your ground to get within FFP compliance. How do you think this season would have gone had you not gone up? Genuine question? I'm guessing you will simply say that you would have sold Grealish... Even if you got the 50 million you seem to think you would have got at the time (I'll admit you likely would now) that would still only cover some of it.

Ah - So the actual Villa fans I've known for 30ish years are to be discounted? 

Unlike yourself I don't read other teams fans websites. Strange move for a fan that is obsessed I know...

I'm 6ft 3 and built like a rake mate, but I'll let that comment slide as I know that you're definitely not an obsessed fan base, who definitely don't have an obsession with height and especially when not obsessing over our managers and how tall he is. 

 

[poland_exile]

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

Don't think you can compare us to Villa with regards to finances.

I think the difference is that our owner foresaw the impact that ffp would have and as a result, a few seasons back put in place the often maligned strategy to make the club more sustainable and so that it would not break the new ffp limits. Yes, he has continued to "prop up" the club, as do the vast majority of championship owners.Our fans that do feel entitled bemoan this strategy from time to time, as, other than LJ, they see it as the reason why we do not compete better because we keep selling our best players.

On the other hand Villa, following their premier league relegation carried on regardless from a financial standpoint, in an attempt to secure a quick return to the premier league. Despite parachute payments during the 3 years of the new ffp cycle, they still had to resort to selling Villa park as  the only way of avoiding a huge ffp punishment - that would most probably have resulted in them still being in the championship now. 

From one of Delta's posts on the ffp thread I think he says that Vila's owners have injected £100m+ in the last season. That is as much as SL put into City in a 10 year period!

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Downend, I would emphatically agree with you, and it wasn't my intention to compare us directly to Villa given that they have really been very clearly cheeky in their approach to creative accounting and 'Brewster's Millions' spending strategy. 

And incidentally, though unrelated to your point, neither was it my intention to defend them should anyone think that! 

I find the whole financial side of football nowadays utterly bewildering and, frankly, hard to swallow. The obscene figures have definitely taken a shine from the game  

 

[Riaz]

Spending the amount villa spent last season, is cheating. Plain and simple.

If it was their first season down, i'd understand. But their first season down saw losses of 32m.

For them to lose another 80m on top, thats pure cheating.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sadly, the PL appear to have approved the transaction.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-8075455/Aston-Villa-given-approval-Premier-League-ahead-sale-Villa-Park.html

@Riaz you said you're an accountant- your input on the FFP thread about this debate would be very interesting.

First season saw losses of £14.5m I think- £11m in allowable FFP costs.

Second season, saw about £36m- £15m in allowable FFP costs.

Last season saw £68,884,000- FFP costs were £13-14m, Randy Lerner payment was £30m and £15.8m in costs of promotion- bonuses, clauses etc.

However they needed the stadium sale- Profit £36.4m to apparently comply and HS2 revenue over the last 2 seasons of £17.4m added a good boost.

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Delta said:

Do you even know how much top Championship strikers go for?  Keep kidding yourself that you got a good deal - It was such a good deal it's probably the reason you missed out on the play offs in the past 2 seasons.

Villa are on target to breaking even this season.  I don't think you'll see the mess of a couple of years ago again.

Go down & we'll sell Grealish and probably a couple of others for tens of millions.  Coupled with the parachute payment, we'll be the most stable club in the division - We might even have a look at your team to see if there's anyone worth taking.  From what i saw of your recent match against Blues, that is unlikely though.  We will also have a much stronger side than the one we went up with (minus Jack of course)

What is the most common word used against Villa. Arrogance, and you just proved my point with that comment alone.

You are hated by just about every other team because of your arrogance and total lack of respect. You got relegated to the Championship but came down with the Billy Big Bollocks attitude. Oh, look at all these little Championship clubs, oh we're Aston Villa we play 46 and win 46, your fans acted like some Snob at the Village Fair who always expects her Blueberry ******* Jam to get first prize, don't you know who I am, I'm Lady Muck Villa.

You're second on the list only to Bristol Rovers of my most hated teams (never gave you a thought previously until you came down and then I realized what an arrogant, self entitled, horrible, shitty club you are) and I'm going to love it (plus 99% of the country) if you come back down again.

[bcfc01]

9 minutes ago, Sniper said:

What is the most common word used against Villa. Arrogance, and you just proved my point with that comment alone.

You are hated by just about every other team because of your arrogance and total lack of respect. You got relegated to the Championship but came down with the Billy Big Bollocks attitude. Oh, look at all these little Championship clubs, oh we're Aston Villa we play 46 and win 46, your fans acted like some Snob at the Village Fair who always expects her Blueberry ******* Jam to get first prize, don't you know who I am, I'm Lady Muck Villa.

You're second on the list only to Bristol Rovers of my most hated teams (never gave you a thought previously until you came down and then I realized what an arrogant, self entitled, horrible, shitty club you are) and I'm going to love it (plus 99% of the country) if you come back down again.

Are you Kevin Keegan ?

 

[Delta]

25 minutes ago, Sniper said:

What is the most common word used against Villa. Arrogance, and you just proved my point with that comment alone.

You are hated by just about every other team because of your arrogance and total lack of respect. You got relegated to the Championship but came down with the Billy Big Bollocks attitude. Oh, look at all these little Championship clubs, oh we're Aston Villa we play 46 and win 46, your fans acted like some Snob at the Village Fair who always expects her Blueberry ******* Jam to get first prize, don't you know who I am, I'm Lady Muck Villa.

You're second on the list only to Bristol Rovers of my most hated teams (never gave you a thought previously until you came down and then I realized what an arrogant, self entitled, horrible, shitty club you are) and I'm going to love it (plus 99% of the country) if you come back down again.

Big clubs are always branded as arrogant by tin pot clubs - It's the way of the world.

In the reverse, big clubs also view the fans of tin pot clubs as petty, small minded and irrelevant.

[Delta]

53 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Sadly, the PL appear to have approved the transaction.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-8075455/Aston-Villa-given-approval-Premier-League-ahead-sale-Villa-Park.html

@Riaz you said you're an accountant- your input on the FFP thread about this debate would be very interesting.

First season saw losses of £14.5m I think- £11m in allowable FFP costs.

Second season, saw about £36m- £15m in allowable FFP costs.

Last season saw £68,884,000- FFP costs were £13-14m, Randy Lerner payment was £30m and £15.8m in costs of promotion- bonuses, clauses etc.

However they needed the stadium sale- Profit £36.4m to apparently comply and HS2 revenue over the last 2 seasons of £17.4m added a good boost.

"Sadly"

Regardless of the fact that it was the correct decision.

I think that completely sums up your obsessive bias.

You stooped to hoping for a loophole in order for us to fail.  The same loopholes you accused Villa of using.

It was always going to end in tears for you.

[BRISTOL86]

4 minutes ago, Delta said:

Big clubs are always branded as arrogant by tin pot clubs - It's the way of the world.

Well thanks for proving the point so eloquently!