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Next Season’s Squad


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8 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

In short, the head coach and his team don't believe that the young players (academy or otherwise) are good enough. Otherwise, they would be playing.

We have to face reality and make some tough decisions. Our squad is currently too big. We need to sell or let players go who aren't deemed good enough.

And then we need to ask two serious questions:

  1. Why is the "ones for the future" recruitment policy failing so badly?
  2. Why isn't the academy consistently delivering championship ready talent?

These need to be answered in the context of "who is the head coach" at the end of the season. Johnson will not be going anywhere. My view is that we have systemic failures in the academy and the recruitment side.

But we sign players from elsewhere that probably aren't good enough and wouldn't be considered "championship ready talent", they get game time or a chance to improve. 

Why do our academy players not get the same chance to grow and improve? 

The academy is going to be producing starlets over the next few years, ask anyone who watches the u18s, u23s and loanees out on loan. 

The issue is when they are close to the first team, will they ever get a chance to play games and get better. 

Imagine Bryan, Reid and Kelly were coming through now. Would any of them get a chance to play in our team and improve like they did?

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good reply.

Out of interest, we probably need to raise £8-10m each season before we buy anyone on average. We are probably able to ignore that this summer and spend all that we raise.

Fo you think there are enough players in your list going out the door to have enough to recruit stronger?

I think Eliasson will be gone, but we won’t get what some people think we’ll get for him - £7/8m most imho.

I think Fam will be off too to fund Afobe.  

A good point - an oversight in my dealings for sure.

Williams/Wright/Vyner/Watkins/Adelakun/Palmer/Szcmodics/Hinds - Off the wage bill at least.

Vyner/Watkins/Adelakun/Hinds I don't see us getting any decent fees for at all. Palmer I don't imagine we would want to sell for a loss, and also don't see anyone buying him for what we paid, so that's why I figured a loan. Szmodics - I don't think anything was agreed with Peterborough? Could see them buying him for around what we paid, if not a little more.

I think realistically, the ones who'd go for the sort of money we're talking are the two you suggest, or Massengo, who I really hope stays here for at least another year.

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Earlier on in the season in a Korey Smith thread, @Davefevs said this in response to someone mentioning getting rid of him

Quote

 

What if he comes back from injury well and performs?  I know it’s an if, but he’s under contract til next summer, seems no rush to do anything. 

To move him on will cost us no less than keeping him here (physio team effort accepted).  We would have to buy out his contract. 

Big financial consideration, not just sentimental. 

 

I think he's been one of our better players throughout the past couple of months, and a midfield without him looks extremely poor. 

I hope we offer him a new deal, I don't think we'd have to improve upon his current terms to keep him here either. 

Any other players out of contract I'd release. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Earlier on in the season in a Korey Smith thread, @Davefevs said this in response to someone mentioning getting rid of him

I think he's been one of our better players throughout the past couple of months, and a midfield without him looks extremely poor. 

I hope we offer him a new deal, I don't think we'd have to improve upon his current terms to keep him here either. 

Any other players out of contract I'd release. 

 

Yes, think someone was suggesting paying up his contract, which seemed pointless imho.

The again a number on otib would’ve done the same with Bobby Reid too. 

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4 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

When you say bloated, do you mean CMs that can tackle? Only Smith and Morrell currently fall into that category. 

Well on a basic level of sheer numbers - 7 doesn't easily go into 2, or even 3.

They all have different traits but they all have similar stature, besides Bakinson, who ironically is least likely to figure. 

Of the smaller players, they all have pretty good work rate, football intelligence and passing.

There are different exceptional qualities. For example,  Massengo the best at closing down, Smith getting a foot in, Nagy forward passing, Walsh long passing...

I like all of them, but we don't need them all.

Even Smith isn't a tough physical CDM, and I wouldn't be surprised if we bought one, this expanding the options further and confusing matters.

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18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

This is who we have based on contract expiry, plus in brackets where going into final year (and known year options):

GK: (4)

Bentley, O’Leary (1), Wollacott (1), Gilmartin (1)

[Maenpaa OOC]

RBs: (1)

Hunt (1)

[Pereira loan ended]

LBs: (2)

Dasilva, Pring (1)

CBs: (5)

Kalas, Vyner (1), Baker (1), Moore (1), Cundy (1)

[Williams OOC, Wright OOC, Benkovic loan ended]

CMs: (10)

Massengo, Nagy, Palmer, Szmodics, Morrell, Bakinson, Morton, Paterson (1), Walsh (1 assume option taken), Rowe (1)

[K.Smith OOC, Henriksen loan ended]

Wingers: (6)

O’Dowda, Eliasson (1), J.Smith (1), Watkins (1), Adelakun (1), Holden (1)

Forwards: (6)

Wells, Semenyo, Janneh, Weimann (1), Diedhiou (1), Hinds (1)

[Taylor OOC, Afobe loan ended]

A squad of 34.  You’d expect the likes of Morton, Janneh to maybe go out on loan.  Expect Korey to get an extension.  Probably missed off some youngsters like Nurse who might be OOC thus summer too.

Must keep Korey and make him captain next season.

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3 hours ago, Shtanley said:

But we sign players from elsewhere that probably aren't good enough and wouldn't be considered "championship ready talent", they get game time or a chance to improve. 

Why do our academy players not get the same chance to grow and improve? 

The academy is going to be producing starlets over the next few years, ask anyone who watches the u18s, u23s and loanees out on loan. 

The issue is when they are close to the first team, will they ever get a chance to play games and get better. 

Imagine Bryan, Reid and Kelly were coming through now. Would any of them get a chance to play in our team and improve like they did?

I partly agree with you - You could have:

O'Leary

Hunt (or replacement) - Moore - Kalas - Dasilva/Pring

Walsh  -  Morrell/Massengo

Smith/O'dowda                            Ellisason

Afobe -  Wells/Seymenyo

Or:

O'Leary

 Vyner - Kalas - Moore

Hunt (or replacement)                                               Dasilva/Pring

Walsh - Morrell/Massengo

Palmer       

Afobe Wells/Seymenyo

Neither would be the best possible team but it would get some prospects/academy players into the team and to be honest if we were doing that (having 3-7 youth players playing regularly) then I be more forgiving of our league position and to be honest both of those teams I think would be competitive at this level - probably more mid table than playoffs but we would also be developing our own players. 

But I think we would definitely play Bryan, Reid and Kelly - we were literally doing this under LJ. Kelly in particular got time at CB and LB despite having options in both positions and him still finding his feet. I think we'll see at least a couple of our loan players in and around the first team next season.

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5 hours ago, Coxy27 said:

For me:

GK: Maenpaa gets a new deal - I think it's really tight between him and Bentley, but after Saturday I'm possibly saying Maenpaa shades it. Two solid options, plus Gilmartin. O'Leary and Wollacott on loans.

RB: Keep Hunt, but obvious we need a signing here, and I would expect us to sign a first choice RB. I like Pereira, but given the cost and amount he's actually played this season I think it's pretty unlikely to be him, though I would not be disappointed if it was.

LB: Dasilva first choice, Rowe fine as back-up, he did well there this season. If there's a league one side who is willing to give Pring game time, then a loan for him to see what he's got, otherwise sell. Wouldn't prioritise a signing in this position.

CB: Kalas first choice, keep Baker and Moore, but I would expect a fourth option to be brought in. Vyner I don't see making it here, and would sell, Cundy I would apply the same logic as Pring above. No new deal for Williams or Wright, unless Williams was to be considered for coaching development.

CM: Massengo, Nagy, Morrell, Walsh and Smith (extend) competing for places. I will do a separate category for AM options. Bakinson and Morton need more time on loans, Rowe I have included as back-up at LB, he could be an emergency in midfield too. Don't see us needing to sign in this position unless something mega became available - I really want Walsh to be playing regularly.

Wings: O'Dowda, Eliasson - It's quite hard to judge what we need here as it depends what formation we are going to play. As we know Johnson likes to chop and change and I don't see why he would stop doing so (although I'd love us to have a settled shape). If we are going to play wingers, then we would need to sign another option, or two. If it's going to be an option off the bench or an occasional switch, we can probably cope with these two, and Paterson/Weimann used as other options. I would apply the Pring/Cundy logic to Holden and Smith, and sell Watkins and Adelakun. I'll go for one signing coming in, plus Cal & Nik.

AM: Paterson, Palmer and Szmodics for most sides you'd say are enough options. However, Johnson's going nowhere, and I think it's fairly clear he doesn't fully trust any of these three players. For that reason I wouldn't be surprised to see any of all of these players sold, with another option (or two) brought in. most likely for me would be Paterson kept on with a new signing, Palmer (loaned) and Szmodics sold.

FW: Wells, Weimann, Diedhiou, I would gamble on Afobe and be done there. Sell Hinds, loan Janneh and Semenyo.

So that would be:

GK (3), RB (2 (1 Signing)), LB (2), CB (4 (1 signing)), CM (5), Wings (3 (1 signing)), AM (2 (1 signing)), FW (4 (1 signing)).

Squad of 25. I'm probably falling foul of home grown rules here somehow, but oh well.

My view:

GK: Maenpaa has done well recently but not getting younger. I'd be happy to see O'Leary given the chance to push Bentley for the shirt next season with Wollacott on another loan.

RB: Similar to you. Would be happy with Pereira but okay with another signing. I agree whoever it is needs to come in with a plan for them to be first choice.

LB: Obviously keeping DaSilva a no-brainer. I'd rather a specialised left back over Rowe but not an absolute priority.

CB: Happy with Kalas, Baker and Moore. I'd like Vyner to be kept around and given a chance but still think we'd need a centre-back, especially as I'd like us to play 3 at the back

CM: I want Walsh and Morrell to get a chance and hope Massengo and Nagy will build on this season. Smith is making a great case for a new deal too.

Wingers: I think the Eliasson situation will be taken out of our hands and don't reckon we should be playing with wingers if so. I think O'Dowda is expendable but not sure what offers we will get. I think we should sell Adelakun but think Watkins offers something nobody else does.

AM: I'd like us to play a 3 man midfield rather than a number 10 but we would need creativity.  Theoretically that could be O'Dowda, Paterson, Smzodics or Palmer but I don't know how any of them would suit a deeper position. I would love to see Palmer develop into the player we hope he can be.

FW: I'd like two up front. A bit like midfield, it is more partnerships that work that worry me rather than out and out players. Like you, I'd be happy with Weimann, Afobe, Diedhiou and Wells, although I'd quite like to see Watkins as an option here too. Janneh and Semenyo on loan.

So I think that puts me:

GK: 3

RB 2 including new signing

CB 5 including new signing

LB 2 including new signing 

CM 5 plus 2 of O'Dowda, Paterson, Palmer and Smzodics

FW: 5 including signing of Afobe

That is a squad of 24 plus Rowe as a utility player. Possibly 26 or 27 depending on whether we can sell our attacking midfielders. 

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4 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

In short, the head coach and his team don't believe that the young players (academy or otherwise) are good enough. Otherwise, they would be playing.

We have to face reality and make some tough decisions. Our squad is currently too big. We need to sell or let players go who aren't deemed good enough.

And then we need to ask two serious questions:

  1. Why is the "ones for the future" recruitment policy failing so badly?
  2. Why isn't the academy consistently delivering championship ready talent?

These need to be answered in the context of "who is the head coach" at the end of the season. Johnson will not be going anywhere. My view is that we have systemic failures in the academy and the recruitment side.

Ones for the future recruitment is not failing so badly imo.

Brownhill, O'Dowda, Eliasson, Dasilva and Moore all successful ones for the future signings. And I would say Massengo looks a certain quality signing for the future. And Walsh does too imo.

Palmer hasn't worked out yet. But we know what he can do. Szmodics could well make it with us with how good he is looking in league one and still young.

Bad ones are Engvall, Adelakun, Lucic.

Can't really think of any other bad ones. Eisa we made a profit on. 

So it's still too early to say it's failed. But it looks very promising imo.

As for the academy. We have produced Kelly, Bryan and Reid.

But presently we have O'Leary and Vyner who look at least league one but possibly championship quality. O'Leary has had a great season and had some great games for us last season. Vyner has had a full season in the championship and did well in the end. And half a season in Scottish prem. He's certainly getting there.

Morrell playing in Wales team and a great season at Lincoln. He will be ready next year I hope for us.

And then there's numerous players doing very well on loan. Pring, Holden, J Smith. Bakinson is very highly rated. Semenyo probably the highest rated of them all. Janneh had league one interest before getting injured.

The next group coming up are apparently even more promising. I think it's working. But still too early to see the results of the success of both the young recruitment and the academy.

 

Edited by JonDolman
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A squad of 23+ is only gonna realistically work if there's half a dozen or so players there not really expecting any game time.  I'm not sure we can continue to have 4 or 5 first team players not even making the bench every week. 

It needs some careful trimming and there are some big decisions to be made regarding the likes of Moore, Vyner, Walsh, Morrell etc.  Either we believe in them or we don't.

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36 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Ones for the future recruitment is not failing so badly imo.

Brownhill, O'Dowda, Eliasson, Dasilva and Moore all successful ones for the future signings. And I would say Massengo looks a certain quality signing for the future. And Walsh does too imo.

Palmer hasn't worked out yet. But we know what he can do. Szmodics could well make it with us with how good he is looking in league one and still young.

Bad ones are Engvall, Adelakun, Lucic.

Can't really think of any other bad ones. Eisa we made a profit on. 

So it's still too early to say it's failed. But it looks very promising imo.

As for the academy. We have produced Kelly, Bryan and Reid.

But presently we have O'Leary and Vyner who look at least league one but possibly championship quality. O'Leary has had a great season and had some great games for us last season. Vyner has had a full season in the championship and did well in the end. And half a season in Scottish prem. He's certainly getting there.

Morrell playing in Wales team and a great season at Lincoln. He will be ready next year I hope for us.

And then there's numerous players doing very well on loan. Pring, Holden, J Smith. Bakinson is very highly rated. Semenyo probably the highest rated of them all. Janneh had league one interest before getting injured.

The next group coming up are apparently even more promising. I think it's working. But still too early to see the results of the success of both the young recruitment and the academy.

 

Even Adelakun and Lukic aren't that terrible. I think both were free signings and punts that did not work out. It is disappointing, espeically Adelakun who I had high hopes for, but hardly a disaster.

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15 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Even Adelakun and Lukic aren't that terrible. I think both were free signings and punts that did not work out. It is disappointing, espeically Adelakun who I had high hopes for, but hardly a disaster.

Neither were free.  Lucic was a fee(undisc - but £200-400k rumoured) and Adelakun was a fee (undisc- but roughly £600k) to avoid tribunal.

So best part of £1m.  We’ll get some of that back with Haks.

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7 hours ago, Coxy27 said:

For me:

GK: Maenpaa gets a new deal - I think it's really tight between him and Bentley, but after Saturday I'm possibly saying Maenpaa shades it. Two solid options, plus Gilmartin. O'Leary and Wollacott on loans.

RB: Keep Hunt, but obvious we need a signing here, and I would expect us to sign a first choice RB. I like Pereira, but given the cost and amount he's actually played this season I think it's pretty unlikely to be him, though I would not be disappointed if it was.

LB: Dasilva first choice, Rowe fine as back-up, he did well there this season. If there's a league one side who is willing to give Pring game time, then a loan for him to see what he's got, otherwise sell. Wouldn't prioritise a signing in this position.

CB: Kalas first choice, keep Baker and Moore, but I would expect a fourth option to be brought in. Vyner I don't see making it here, and would sell, Cundy I would apply the same logic as Pring above. No new deal for Williams or Wright, unless Williams was to be considered for coaching development.

CM: Massengo, Nagy, Morrell, Walsh and Smith (extend) competing for places. I will do a separate category for AM options. Bakinson and Morton need more time on loans, Rowe I have included as back-up at LB, he could be an emergency in midfield too. Don't see us needing to sign in this position unless something mega became available - I really want Walsh to be playing regularly.

Wings: O'Dowda, Eliasson - It's quite hard to judge what we need here as it depends what formation we are going to play. As we know Johnson likes to chop and change and I don't see why he would stop doing so (although I'd love us to have a settled shape). If we are going to play wingers, then we would need to sign another option, or two. If it's going to be an option off the bench or an occasional switch, we can probably cope with these two, and Paterson/Weimann used as other options. I would apply the Pring/Cundy logic to Holden and Smith, and sell Watkins and Adelakun. I'll go for one signing coming in, plus Cal & Nik.

AM: Paterson, Palmer and Szmodics for most sides you'd say are enough options. However, Johnson's going nowhere, and I think it's fairly clear he doesn't fully trust any of these three players. For that reason I wouldn't be surprised to see any of all of these players sold, with another option (or two) brought in. most likely for me would be Paterson kept on with a new signing, Palmer (loaned) and Szmodics sold.

FW: Wells, Weimann, Diedhiou, I would gamble on Afobe and be done there. Sell Hinds, loan Janneh and Semenyo.

So that would be:

GK (3), RB (2 (1 Signing)), LB (2), CB (4 (1 signing)), CM (5), Wings (3 (1 signing)), AM (2 (1 signing)), FW (4 (1 signing)).

Squad of 25. I'm probably falling foul of home grown rules here somehow, but oh well.

I believe Bentley is seen as our No1 so a decision needs to be made about Maanpaa who is blocking both O'leary and Wollacott. JoJo may accept going out on loan but I'm not sure about Max who may wish to move on if he's not No2 here next season.

I like Perreira but if buying would be cost prohibitive (3m tops for me) then we will need to buy an established right back. On the left happy with Dasilva and Rowe. Pring out on loan again. 

Agree about Kalas, Baker and Moore but I'd want to see more of Vyner before writing him off. A right sided CB though remains a possibility. 

Agree the CMs although you missed CLE who's not going to make it here and should be released. 

I suspect we might need a winger as I would be (pleasantly) surprised if Elliasson is still here next year. Might be an opportunity to give Jonny Smith a go, sending him out on loan in Jan if it doesn't work out. Loans for Holden and Nurse. 

In the AM role I expect us to keep Paterson and Szmodics and sell Palmer if we get a decent offer. 

I agree about the forwards. 

Of course it won't end up this way as we sell someone we don't expect, and buy someone we've never hear of. 

Edited by RoystonFoote'snephew
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7 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Agree with some things you say there. But I don't see why Vyner won't make it with us. Cundy is actually older than Vyner and is only playing conference level.

Vyner has league two, league one, championship and Scottish Prem experience. 

I would either loan him back to league one for a club that want him as a centre back, or use him as back up for us.

Agree, Vyner played well at this level with Rotherham. I would be happy with us starting next season with Kalas, Baker, Moore and Vyner as our centre backs, I would add 1 if we are going to play 3 at the back. 

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22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

This is who we have based on contract expiry, plus in brackets where going into final year (and known year options):

GK: (4)

Bentley, O’Leary (1), Wollacott (1), Gilmartin (1)

[Maenpaa OOC]

RBs: (1)

Hunt (1)

[Pereira loan ended]

LBs: (2)

Dasilva, Pring (1)

CBs: (5)

Kalas, Vyner (1), Baker (1), Moore (1), Cundy (1)

[Williams OOC, Wright OOC, Benkovic loan ended]

CMs: (10)

Massengo, Nagy, Palmer, Szmodics, Morrell, Bakinson, Morton, Paterson (1), Walsh (1 assume option taken), Rowe (1)

[K.Smith OOC, Henriksen loan ended]

Wingers: (6)

O’Dowda, Eliasson (1), J.Smith (1), Watkins (1), Adelakun (1), Holden (1)

Forwards: (6)

Wells, Semenyo, Janneh, Weimann (1), Diedhiou (1), Hinds (1)

[Taylor OOC, Afobe loan ended]

A squad of 34.  You’d expect the likes of Morton, Janneh to maybe go out on loan.  Expect Korey to get an extension.  Probably missed off some youngsters like Nurse who might be OOC thus summer too.

And the forgotten KP.

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6 hours ago, Shtanley said:

But we sign players from elsewhere that probably aren't good enough and wouldn't be considered "championship ready talent", they get game time or a chance to improve. 

Why do our academy players not get the same chance to grow and improve? 

The academy is going to be producing starlets over the next few years, ask anyone who watches the u18s, u23s and loanees out on loan. 

The issue is when they are close to the first team, will they ever get a chance to play games and get better. 

Imagine Bryan, Reid and Kelly were coming through now. Would any of them get a chance to play in our team and improve like they did?

The changes to the loan window effected us in a bad way imo, window in the summer closing before 1st game meant you had to think they were getting game time or get them out on loan so they could play football until January. Imagine if it used to be like it was and we could loan players out for a couple of months, we'd see many more players involved but to get regular league football means we need to loan them out and therefore can't get them back unless we recall in Jan. For me all 3 would get game time based on ability but if they were breaking through they'd probably all be out on loan in league 1 and therefore unable to play them anyway, LJ has said he wants Walsh back in the squad for next season so it does show that there is a way for loanees to put their hand up for selection by playing well in league one (or SPL/champ if we send them there)

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