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Season Ticket refund


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Chance are Force majeure, but I''ve also read online that English law doesn't contain Force majeure- but Internet eh!

However, the Club Charter indicates the following:

Quote

RETURNS/REFUNDS

Match tickets are non-refundable apart from in exceptional circumstances, in which case our Supporter Services team will assess each case on its individual merits. In the event of a refund being agreed the club must receive the tickets back prior to the day of the game. NO refunds will be given after the purchase of a season ticket.

I don't know the status of Force Majeure in English law but I assume that this is covered in some respect through this.

Basic definition:

Quote

Force majeure. The happening of events outside the control of the parties, for example, natural disasters or the outbreak of hostilities. It is usual for parties to provide in a contract that such events will not make the defaulting party liable if they prevent it from performing its obligations.

I believe that there is no legal obligation/compulsion on the part of a club basically.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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As players and staff of clubs will expect to be paid their wages , any refunds could have a devastating effect on financies. Only today Barnet have announced that 60 of their non playing staff have been made redundant. Many more clubs could follow over the next weeks if they can not generate income.

Edited by fatchers
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The money is gone anyway - would rather see some form of competition to decide the championship - if the league does not Allow the remaining games to be played with spectators that’s fine with me - as long as we are not asked to pay for streaming! 
Any revenue surplus could then be shared with local grass root sports, starting with our own Accadamy!

Slightest chance we could end up getting to the Prem - go for it!

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The season will be played to a finish, at some time.

Now the next question could be, will refunds be available for rearranged games the same as if a concert is postponed/cancelled ? I would doubt it , I imagine it would be treated the same as any rearranged fixture that may have been called off for other reasons. 

As I understand it, the plan is to get domestic and European games completed then have a month gap for July before the season starts in August. There is a lot of talking to be done though, contracts usually run until June 30th, so carrying the season over into July would mean many sides having to agree on how to do it. But with a bit of juggling the season will be completed.

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3 hours ago, NOTBLUE said:

Well if they do cancel the season, I would want any refund that is due,if due, to go to charity,I’ve already paid for it so wouldn’t miss the money. Children’s Hospice or Hospital would do nicely.

I'd be happy for this too. I suspect that even if this seasons final matches get played then, unless there is some miraculous cure, I may have seen my last game. I'm in an at risk category and my health (life) will take precedent over football. 

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In terms of the £s impact on City, looking at 2019’s accounts:

2644A849-2214-4EDF-A592-C3399C793B5C.thumb.jpeg.79c7708d2d1ffd5afa6a54f1800068a8.jpeg

5/23 pro-rata of £3,622,414 = £787,481 cost!!

in terms of average season card cost, based on 14.5k SC holders (irrespective of price / age band):

£249.82 average cost.

So average refund = £54.31

Good guesswork @NOTBLUE

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4 hours ago, sephjnr said:

As the Euros are now confirmed off for this year then depending if the worst of this is over in May we may have enough room to see out 5-8 games, even with summer hols truncated.

I don't think this will be over by May.

I'm more concerned about the £500 I've just forked out for next season, which I think might not happen.

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Chance are Force majeure, but I''ve also read online that English law doesn't contain Force majeure- but Internet eh!

However, the Club Charter indicates the following:

I don't know the status of Force Majeure in English law but I assume that this is covered in some respect through this.

Basic definition:

I believe that there is no legal obligation/compulsion on the part of a club basically.

When did that change Mr P? I used to have Force Majeure as a condition in the Contracts I used to draft and they were based on English law

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2 minutes ago, ralphindevon said:

This is a situation I thought I'd never see, even at City! 

Paid for my season card on Sunday, thread on getting a refund for it on Tuesday.

I meant it as a thread for potential refund on this seasons tickets IF the season got cancelled.

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10 minutes ago, Busterrimes said:

When did that change Mr P? I used to have Force Majeure as a condition in the Contracts I used to draft and they were based on English law

It’s in my contract.

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3 minutes ago, GTFABM said:

I meant it as a thread for potential refund on this seasons tickets IF the season got cancelled.

Yeah I get that, though there was a post saying they'd asked about next season. 

I was just trying to be light hearted in what is a bit of a grim time

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1 hour ago, Busterrimes said:

When did that change Mr P? I used to have Force Majeure as a condition in the Contracts I used to draft and they were based on English law

FM clauses are still used. 

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2 hours ago, Busterrimes said:

When did that change Mr P? I used to have Force Majeure as a condition in the Contracts I used to draft and they were based on English law

Okay thanks. 

Had read one or two things online, but it seems like I thought maybe the case, the Internet wrong. Force majeure would clearly cover this then. 

In which case, would it cover the Sky and football contracts I wonder- hence saving a shitload of legal issues?

I did mention force majeure last week as possible but wasn't sure either way.

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4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

In terms of the £s impact on City, looking at 2019’s accounts:

2644A849-2214-4EDF-A592-C3399C793B5C.thumb.jpeg.79c7708d2d1ffd5afa6a54f1800068a8.jpeg

5/23 pro-rata of £3,622,414 = £787,481 cost!!

in terms of average season card cost, based on 14.5k SC holders (irrespective of price / age band):

£249.82 average cost.

So average refund = £54.31

Good guesswork @NOTBLUE

Are those figures for the years the wrong way round? I find it difficult to believe last years matchday revenue was over a million down on 2018.

Edited by pillred
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4 hours ago, pillred said:

Are those figures for the years the wrong way round? I find it difficult to believe last years matchday revenue was over a million down on 2018.

The cup games?

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I read something a couple of weeks ago that if games are resumed and played behind closed doors that season ticket holders would receive free streaming of the game. ( therefore no refunds)

Imo this season will finish before August and next season will start in Sept / Oct.

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15 hours ago, NOTBLUE said:

Well if they do cancel the season, I would want any refund that is due,if due, to go to charity,I’ve already paid for it so wouldn’t miss the money. Children’s Hospice or Hospital would do nicely.

 

15 hours ago, phantom said:

Very valid point, and this would be a great gesture from our club

"IF" the season gets cancelled, I wonder if other clubs that really rely on this income, whether they will ask supporters to let them keep the money to help them survive?

That should be down to the individual's discretion upon receipt of a theoretical refund.. Any option to give to charity OR claim a refund puts unnecessary moral pressure on people to feel obligated to donate to charity.

The reality of the situation, especially at the moment, is that lots of people might need the money. 

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7 hours ago, pillred said:

Are those figures for the years the wrong way round? I find it difficult to believe last years matchday revenue was over a million down on 2018.

⏬

3 hours ago, RedM said:

The cup games?

Yes, cup games from 17/18 season.

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

I read something a couple of weeks ago that if games are resumed and played behind closed doors that season ticket holders would receive free streaming of the game. ( therefore no refunds)

Imo this season will finish before August and next season will start in Sept / Oct.

Darragh McAnthony of Peterboro suggested that as his plan b.

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8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Okay thanks. 

Had read one or two things online, but it seems like I thought maybe the case, the Internet wrong. Force majeure would clearly cover this then. 

In which case, would it cover the Sky and football contracts I wonder- hence saving a shitload of legal issues?

I did mention force majeure last week as possible but wasn't sure either way.

My understanding is that a Force Majeure clause needs to be defined in a Contract for it to be referenced as it's not automatically recognised under English Common law. Also, lot's of Contracts have terms defining "events" and how they are dealt with that may normally be classed as "force majeure" without actually stating it.

 

So essentially it would just depend on the wording in an agreement.

 

 

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City can keep my season ticket cash because this will all pass over and I would still like to have my seat in the Dolman and have a team to watch.  The financial losses from this pandemic could sink some of the weaker clubs, so I hope that City can emerge as one of the strongest survivors. I fully sympathise with all those who are worried about their finances and hope it all works out for them.

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My guess would be that if the remaining games are eventually played behind closed doors (unlikely IMV) they will be streamed FOC - and a small discount offered off of next season's S/T whenever that is.

If the season is cancelled (very likely) then a bigger discount will be offered against next season's S/T - the discount probably an equal % of the % of games not fulfilled.(ie 20% of games cancelled = 20% of next S/T).

I think they would try to avoid mass cash refunds and the above solution would encourage renewals after what will most likely be a very long break.

 

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1 hour ago, Bob Turnip said:

My understanding is that a Force Majeure clause needs to be defined in a Contract for it to be referenced as it's not automatically recognised under English Common law. Also, lot's of Contracts have terms defining "events" and how they are dealt with that may normally be classed as "force majeure" without actually stating it.

 

So essentially it would just depend on the wording in an agreement.

 

 

10 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Okay thanks. 

Had read one or two things online, but it seems like I thought maybe the case, the Internet wrong. Force majeure would clearly cover this then. 

In which case, would it cover the Sky and football contracts I wonder- hence saving a shitload of legal issues?

I did mention force majeure last week as possible but wasn't sure either way.

I wouldn't be so sure on the FM point, there could be a lot of litigation around that. 

@Bob Turnip Spot on. The point with Force Majeure is something so terrible happening you can null and void the contract without fault - 'we're faultless in this'. Clearly the Court aren't going to give that away easily because why would you give a get out to something you have agreed? - it's not really compatible with legal certainty, respect for contract etc. FM is really exceptional circumstances.  

So if you want to rely on FM you have to prove it was part of your contract and that you agreed in this type of event we can cancel our deal. You could look at the clause you quoted from the charter Mr P and say 'we have natural event, we have civil unrest', but did we really agree infectious disease was an FM event, and if we didn't then it doesn't apply. 

For something of the value of a season ticket, clearly its likely to be an academic point only... but in a multi-million pound contract, you could see a dispute happening that the clause didn't cover infectious diseases. It's not quite as clear cut as 'no refunds on season tickets after purchase', and that's why drafting contracts is an art form. 

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2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

 

That should be down to the individual's discretion upon receipt of a theoretical refund.. Any option to give to charity OR claim a refund puts unnecessary moral pressure on people to feel obligated to donate to charity.

The reality of the situation, especially at the moment, is that lots of people might need the money. 

Just saying from my own point of view P F,I fully understand that for a lot of people the money will be greatly needed.

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6 minutes ago, 29AR said:

I wouldn't be so sure on the FM point, there could be a lot of litigation around that. 

@Bob Turnip Spot on. The point with Force Majeure is something so terrible happening you can null and void the contract without fault - 'we're faultless in this'. Clearly the Court aren't going to give that away easily because why would you give a get out to something you have agreed? - it's not really compatible with legal certainty, respect for contract etc. FM is really exceptional circumstances.  

So if you want to rely on FM you have to prove it was part of your contract and that you agreed in this type of event we can cancel our deal. You could look at the clause you quoted from the charter Mr P and say 'we have natural event, we have civil unrest', but did we really agree infectious disease was an FM event, and if we didn't then it doesn't apply. 

For something of the value of a season ticket, clearly its likely to be an academic point only... but in a multi-million pound contract, you could see a dispute happening that the clause didn't cover infectious diseases. It's not quite as clear cut as 'no refunds on season tickets after purchase', and that's why drafting contracts is an art form. 

My contract:

1819A411-F424-4F08-9419-3039EFF8EDF3.thumb.jpeg.c6face0971a83e3c79215b89a1fc3234.jpeg

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14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

In terms of the £s impact on City, looking at 2019’s accounts:

2644A849-2214-4EDF-A592-C3399C793B5C.thumb.jpeg.79c7708d2d1ffd5afa6a54f1800068a8.jpeg

5/23 pro-rata of £3,622,414 = £787,481 cost!!

in terms of average season card cost, based on 14.5k SC holders (irrespective of price / age band):

£249.82 average cost.

So average refund = £54.31

Good guesswork @NOTBLUE

 

Lansdown could refund that out of his spare change jar!

I'm with the OP. As has been pointed out, a lot of people are likely to find themselves in serious financial trouble as this goes on. It's bad enough that many might lose money on holidays that cannot be taken and events booked etc. Paying a club owned by one of England's richest men for games you'll not get to see is the last thing some will want on top of all that.

A refund please. If it gets to that.

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9 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Lansdown could refund that out of his spare change jar!

I'm with the OP. As has been pointed out, a lot of people are likely to find themselves in serious financial trouble as this goes on. It's bad enough that many might lose money on holidays that cannot be taken and events booked etc. Paying a club owned by one of England's richest men for games you'll not get to see is the last thing some will want on top of all that.

A refund please. If it gets to that.

Yes, that’s fair enough.  Everyone has their own circumstances / needs.

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