The Coronavirus and its impact on sport/Fans Return (Merged)

[BUTOR]

5 minutes ago, wood_red said:

Don't say that - it doesn't suit the political agendas of many on here.

Boris should have locked down everything, and then the insurers would have paid everyone out, but because he done some gig last year and got paid 25k (allegedly), he won't force businesses to close down as the insurance industry are his mates and he wants to save them a few quid...... 

Let's not let facts get in the way ffs.....

Statement from local music venue and pub Louisiana. 
 

Are you calling them liars? 

[ChippenhamRed]

Remember when we used to argue about whether Eliasson should start, the merits of four or three at the back, and the lack of shots on target?

I miss that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

56 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

The fact it takes something of this magnitude to make ours (and other) countries actually put these things is place is so sad. We can have a bit of compassionate socialism, but only during a pandemic eh?

Things like a universal basic income, employee protections for taking sick leave and on zero hour contracts (which are a separate issue), supporting local food banks, changing awful rental conditions and protecting renters etc. should be a basic part of a modern first would country in my mind, not something you roll out at times like this! Not sure that's a popular view though.

Yes have sympathy with that view, but you can bet that the likes of @Harry don't and there lies a split. 

Private health insurance, number of doctors trained by BUPA?

[LondonBristolian]

13 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I doubt many small businesses have insurance that covers such a scenario, so not sure how that is protecting insurance companies, it’s big one off events like Glastonbury that are likely to be insured, rather than a local pub or restaurant.

4 minutes ago, wood_red said:

Don't say that - it doesn't suit the political agendas of many on here.

Let's not let facts get in the way ffs.....

You certainly aren’t letting the facts get in the way. You have made the weird and arrogant decision that you understand businesses’ insurance policies better than those businesses themselves. 

A lot of small theatres and music venues are small independent businesses - in many cases essentially doubling up as  a town’s local pub. From what people do involved with them tell me, their insurance would be affected. Not just large events like Glastonbury.

These people know their businesses. You very evidently do not know their businesses. I am really not clear why posters who have never seen their insurance policies feel they know best here but I can promise you don’t.

Hardly a fringe point either.

 

If you don’t know pubs, bars and venues’ insurance policies, maybe admit that rather than pretending you do for political convenience? 
 

So let’s not let the facts get in the way indeed.

[freezer]

It had to happen. This was a debate about Coronavirus and its effects on football. 

Now its turned into some sort of political slanging match. Unbelievable! 

People, get a grip. 

There's the opportunity for such discussion on the other forum. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

We are in uncharted waters here to a massive extent.

I believe that the Government are doing what they “think “ is right based on the information they have.No party political view from me at all.

They do need to support individuals that are struggling and business, that is clear.

Agreed. 

Will they though? The individuals and businesses struggling, will they get the help they need.

@Harry seems to consider it futile anyway. Interested in his predictions on unemployment, homessless rates.

Should Government legislation be considered on rent, mortgage deferrals if this crisis as big as he seems to imply...rationing?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

Statement from local music venue and pub Louisiana. 
 

Are you calling them liars? 

That just says "some" insurance. So it wouldn't cover everything would it, and you are also only quoting one venue/business. There will be plenty of businesses who would have been covered for some things with forced closures, and there will also be plenty who wouldn't get a penny as they won't be covered for anything at all, as was mentioned by @PHILINFRANCE earlier in the thread.

I wouldn't believe any PM (whoever was in charge) would put people at risk because they are in bed with the insurance industry. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

You certainly aren’t letting the facts get in the way. You have made the weird and arrogant decision that you understand businesses’ insurance policies better than those businesses themselves. 

A lot of small theatres and music venues are small independent businesses - in many cases essentially doubling up as  a town’s local pub. From what people do involved with them tell me, their insurance would be affected. Not just large events like Glastonbury.

These people know their businesses. You very evidently do not know their businesses. I am really not clear why posters who have never seen their insurance policies feel they know best here but I can promise you don’t.

Hardly a fringe point either.

 

If you don’t know pubs, bars and venues’ insurance policies, maybe admit that rather than pretending you do for political convenience? 
 

So let’s not let the facts get in the way indeed.

Maesknoll Red said we likely need a cull anyway earlier in this thread so I wouldn't expect much better from that particular poster.

[LondonBristolian]

7 minutes ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

Statement from local music venue and pub Louisiana. 
 

Are you calling them liars? 

Yes - but you are ignoring the fact @PHILINFRANCE, @Maesknoll Red and @wood_red all have the uncanny ability to glance at a business and automatically know their insurance policies better than the owners.

There is literally no possibility any of them have decided to blunder in on a subject they know little about and made a load of assertions that anyone familiar with those industries would know to be fundamentally wrong.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Yes - but you are ignoring the fact @PHILINFRANCE, @Maesknoll Red and @wood_red all have the uncanny ability to glance at a business and automatically know their insurance policies better than the owners.

There is literally no possibility any of them have decided to blunder in on a subject they know little about and made a load of assertions that anyone familiar with those industries would know to be fundamentally wrong.

Oh dear.

[AppyDAZE]

Not a Boris fan, i voted Labour .. but for **** sake, no PM is ever going to be able to say or do the right thing to appease all of the people at a time like this.

Strangely , I actually feel for the bloke having to stand up and deal with this day by day and  I think he has started to look real tired with all the stress.

Not a time to start saying we are right, you are wrong politically.. let's just pull together and get through this weird thing together.

Edited March 16, 2020 by AppyDAZE

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes have sympathy with that view, but you can bet that the likes of @Harry don't and there lies a split. 

Private health insurance, number of doctors trained by BUPA?

You couldn’t be more wrong Pops. I’m totally FOR all those things that IamNick mentions. 
But, as I said, this is not a time for political argument. I’m absolutely certain that, once we are in full swing, full lockdown, no business being transacted, no salaries being paid etc etc, that the measures spoken about will be implemented. 
No one will be working. No one will be paid. Thus the only course of action available will be for no one to pay any rent/mortgages/bills etc, and I’m even more certain that there’ll be rationing soon that people won’t starve. 

[And Its Smith]

9 minutes ago, freezer said:

It had to happen. This was a debate about Coronavirus and its effects on football. 

Now its turned into some sort of political slanging match. Unbelievable! 

People, get a grip. 

There's the opportunity for such discussion on the other forum. 

Is there anyone left who really cares about when the football season restarts? Surely this has all got a bit bigger than sport 

[BUTOR]

5 minutes ago, wood_red said:

 

I wouldn't believe any PM (whoever was in charge) would put people at risk because they are in bed with the insurance industry. 

Then you are incredibly naive 

[LondonBristolian]

3 minutes ago, wood_red said:

Oh dear.

So, despite the fact that venues have said this has prevented them from claiming on the insurance, and industry bodies have said this has prevented them from claiming on the insurance, you have decided they are all wrong because you find it a tad inconvenient?

The bottom line is you are welcome to your own opinion but not your own facts. And, on this one, you have your facts completely wrong.

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed. 

Will they though? The individuals and businesses struggling, will they get the help they need.

@Harry seems to consider it futile anyway. Interested in his predictions on unemployment, homessless rates.

Should Government legislation be considered on rent, mortgage deferrals if this crisis as big as he seems to imply...rationing?

You’ve tagged me twice now and got it wrong both times. I firmly believe that once this situation REALLY hits the fan that the whole economy collapses. Everyone will need support. Everyone. I find it very hard to believe that the banks will start evicting people for non payment of mortgages. We will quite literally all be in this together. 
Not sure why you’ve developed a very incorrect impression of me? 

[Guest]

Am I an insurance expert - NO. 

Have I spoke to someone who runs a very large insurance company - YES

Have I spoke to 2 owners of pubs I frequent - YES

Are they fully covered if they are forced to close - NO

 

They are the FACTS that I know to be actual FACTS.

[PHILINFRANCE]

19 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

All I can say is that I have connections with people who work within some of those businesses and they believe they have the cover if the order is made to close. It goes without saying that I have not responded their policies and am going off what they tell me their insurance says.

Unfortunately, this is often the (erroneous) case.

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Mrs F is no longer in insurance (good memory though), but she mentioned in your example that it could be covered by “Denial of Access”.

I think the point Mrs F was making (to me) was that Boris has made no commitment to stop businesses going under, whereas other countries have.

I’m out of my depth here....and if Mrs F signs up for OTIB to explain, I’m off

 

Without wishing to digress from the main point of this thread, Business Interruption insurance, unlike many other insurances, is quite precise in what it does and does not cover.

In general, for the cover to attach there must, firstly, be 'direct physical loss of or damage to the insured property' by an insured peril, e.g. fire or storm, as I mentioned earlier: BI cover used to be called Consequential Loss, and this definition probably better explains the cover afforded, i.e. financial losses as a consequence of, e.g. direct physical loss of or damage to the insured property.    

Clearly, this does not apply in the current context, i.e. there has been no physical loss or damage.

There are, however, other insurance covers (Contingent BI, Civil/Military Authority Interruption - both dependent on physical loss of or damage) and, indeed, various policy cover extensions available on the market, although these are expensive, hence the reason I stated 'I doubt that many 'independent' pubs and/or restaurants, if any, hold the appropriate Business Interrupton insurance cover that might apply in these current circumstances': simply put, the cost of such insurance is prohibitive.  

Nevertheless, to explain the likelihood (in my view) of one of these (extremely expensive, thus probably only available to large chains) extensions applying, here are a few thoughts:

BI following closure due to notifiable disease: unlikely to attach as the policy would normally state which specified 'notifiable diseases' are covered - Covid-19 was only discovered/named some weeks ago, so is unlikely to have been included in any insurance policy, although some larger pub/restaurant chains might have wider ranging cover including notifiable diseases in general.  

BI following closure due to 'Government Closure'. Such cover is available, but, again, prohibitively expensive.

In brief, I believe, from many years' experience, that most small, independent pubs/restaurants will be holding the most basic cover, some, unfortunately, with no BI insurance cover whatsoever, and it is only the larger chains (Wetherspoon, Harvester etc.) who may benefit from a Government enforced closure. 

Don't be so quick to claim Government (Boris Johnson) conspiracy.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

You couldn’t be more wrong Pops. I’m totally FOR all those things that IamNick mentions. 
But, as I said, this is not a time for political argument. I’m absolutely certain that, once we are in full swing, full lockdown, no business being transacted, no salaries being paid etc etc, that the measures spoken about will be implemented. 
No one will be working. No one will be paid. Thus the only course of action available will be for no one to pay any rent/mortgages/bills etc, and I’m even more certain that there’ll be rationing soon that people won’t starve. 

That's reassuring to hear, this virus....seems rather stark for a virus doesn't it!?

Herd immunity, semi lockdown, the strategy seems to change by the day. Apologies too, one or two of my posts are fear driven.

This will sound an odd comparison but the last couple of weeks of relative normality, have already a distinct feeling of Summer 1914, or Summer 1939, how that maybe might have felt.

I hope it's just a virus that will burn out but increasing sense that it's worse, worse by far. 

[ChippenhamRed]

5 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Is there anyone left who really cares about when the football season restarts? Surely this has all got a bit bigger than sport 

Completely agree. Anyone still worrying about football hasn’t grasped how huge this has become for all of us.

[AppyDAZE]

1 minute ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Completely agree. Anyone still worrying about football hasn’t grasped how huge this has become for all of us.

Football?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

So, despite the fact that venues have said this has prevented them from claiming on the insurance, and industry bodies have said this has prevented them from claiming on the insurance, you have decided they are all wrong because you find it a tad inconvenient?

The bottom line is you are welcome to your own opinion but not your own facts. And, on this one, you have your facts completely wrong.

So you are claiming that ALL bars/restaurants/theatres/music venues if force closed would not be out of pocket at all?

[LondonBristolian]

2 minutes ago, wood_red said:

Am I an insurance expert - NO. 

Have I spoke to someone who runs a very large insurance company - YES

Have I spoke to 2 owners of pubs I frequent - YES

Are they fully covered if they are forced to close - NO

 

They are the FACTS that I know to be actual FACTS.

Your argument is that two pubs are not covered. That is no doubt true and various other pubs would not be either.  But nonetheless a lot of small businesses - be they theatres, music venues, pubs, clubs or other entertainment - would be. You can find that out by looking on Twitter, you can find that out by talking to industry bodies and you can find that out by talking to the venues concerned.

I am glad the two pubs you have spoken to are not adversely affected. But it is a fact a lot of small businesses will be.

[LondonBristolian]

3 minutes ago, wood_red said:

So you are claiming that ALL bars/restaurants/theatres/music venues if force closed would not be out of pocket at all?

 No - that many but by no means all will recoup at least something on their insurance and that that “something” could be vital to the survival of those businesses.

[Robin-hugh-blind]

Since this thread has gone so far off topic, may as well add this to the mix.

Anyone got any looting plans prepared? I always thought a supermarket would be best in these circumstances but unless your after spam there's little point. Macdonald's gotta have some stock.

[reddoh]

12 minutes ago, Robin-hugh-blind said:

Since this thread has gone so far off topic, may as well add this to the mix.

Anyone got any looting plans prepared? I always thought a supermarket would be best in these circumstances but unless your after spam there's little point. Macdonald's gotta have some stock.

they must have bog roll

[PHILINFRANCE]

30 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Yes - but you are ignoring the fact @PHILINFRANCE, @Maesknoll Red and @wood_red all have the uncanny ability to glance at a business and automatically know their insurance policies better than the owners.

There is literally no possibility any of them have decided to blunder in on a subject they know little about and made a load of assertions that anyone familiar with those industries would know to be fundamentally wrong.

I must say I am slightly disappointed at your all-encompassing post (most unlike you) as, in fact, this is a subject about which I know quite a lot: I deal with Business Interruption insurance claims, especially within the 'leisure' industry, on a professional basis and have done so for many years.

I tried as best I could to stress that my comments about the lack of BI cover related to the smaller, independendent pubs and restaurants, and I maintain my position.

No doubt your contacts within the industry will be able to update you once they have taken professional advice. 

I shall be very interested to learn how your contacts get on. 

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Your argument is that two pubs are not covered. That is no doubt true and various other pubs would not be either.  But nonetheless a lot of small businesses - be they theatres, music venues, pubs, clubs or other entertainment - would be. You can find that out by looking on Twitter, you can find that out by talking to industry bodies and you can find that out by talking to the venues concerned.

I am glad the two pubs you have spoken to are not adversely affected. But it is a fact a lot of small businesses will be.

My argument is I frequent 2 pubs and both wouldn't be covered for force closure, there will be many in the same boat as @PHILINFRANCE has explained, many will not pay for the insurance that covers this virus. You will see loads on Twitter making the point that they would get some sort of insurance (I expect many expect they would get paid and are not even covered though). 

But the issue with looking at all of these businesses solely on Twitter/Social Media stating this, is anyone who wants force closure to help them because they are insured will be making a noise on SM stating the Government has made a bad decision, therefore it will look a lot worse on the overall numbers imo, and only show one side.

Regarding saying that various pubs would not be covered, that was my issue as you stated small businesses should not be out of pocket and he's not allowing businesses to make claims by keeping them open. I read your comment as a blanket statement for all small businesses, when many won't be covered and couldn't claim anyway. So many owners will be happy to be open and take some money rather than force close, and ones with insurance want force closure to claim.

[Dr Balls]

The pandemic will cause more chaos in the world than any event since the Second World War and it will be more universal. The loss of life may well be of a similar order once the virus hits the third world, which is saying something considering how many died during that conflict. Out of 8 billion people, with 75% catching it, even with only a 1% mortality rate that equates to 60 million deaths worldwide. If that doesn’t call for somber contemplation nothing will!

Radical solutions will be needed. Forget Universal Credit for those laid off from their jobs or whose business collapse. Also there is no point just bailing out big businesses in the way that the banks were in the financial crash of 2008, where all the money went to the richest, and all the pain was borne by the rest of us for years to come, this time we need a universal income at least in the short term. The money needs to go to the people not the “fat cats”. In the meantime, we need funds, so taxing Facebook, Amazon and Google fair amounts across all countries has to come too.

This will truly be a shock to the neo-liberal Western financial system, one for which it is ill-prepared, as it hates market intervention. However only governments working for their populations and working together can sort this out.

As for food, considering as a country we import 50% of it from overseas (mostly from the EU that we left 6 weeks ago) we are in big trouble if the supply lines start drying up. Rationing may be a last resort but it’s no longer unthinkable if this situation continues until next year. 

We are in truly unprecedented times, and as I mentioned before, Boris should have been more careful about what he wished for. He might have hero worshipped Churchill but now he is being asked to deal with something which is potentially far more difficult and complex. And all because he wanted to be “World King” as a kid...

[pillred]

8 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

The pandemic will cause more chaos in the world than any event since the Second World War and it will be more universal. The loss of life may well be of a similar order once the virus hits the third world, which is saying something considering how many died during that conflict. Out of 8 billion people, with 75% catching it, even with only a 1% mortality rate that equates to 60 million deaths worldwide. If that doesn’t call for somber contemplation nothing will!

Radical solutions will be needed. Forget Universal Credit for those laid off from their jobs or whose business collapse. Also there is no point just bailing out big businesses in the way that the banks were in the financial crash of 2008, where all the money went to the richest, and all the pain was borne by the rest of us for years to come, this time we need a universal income at least in the short term. The money needs to go to the people not the “fat cats”. In the meantime, we need funds, so taxing Facebook, Amazon and Google fair amounts across all countries has to come too.

This will truly be a shock to the neo-liberal Western financial system, one for which it is ill-prepared, as it hates market intervention. However only governments working for their populations and working together can sort this out.

As for food, considering as a country we import 50% of it from overseas (mostly from the EU that we left 6 weeks ago) we are in big trouble if the supply lines start drying up. Rationing may be a last resort but it’s no longer unthinkable if this situation continues until next year. 

We are in truly unprecedented times, and as I mentioned before, Boris should have been more careful about what he wished for. He might have hero worshipped Churchill but now he is being asked to deal with something which is potentially far more difficult and complex. And all because he wanted to be “World King” as a kid...

50% of what you say is quite a reasonable argument the other 50% is complete political point scoring B***Ocks I will leave you to decide which is which.