Steve Cotterill article

[GTFABM]

14 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Andre Gray, Harry Maguire and Dwight Gayle wasn’t it?

But then the rug got pulled from underneath him. 

Disgraceful. 

And now Johnson has got carte Blanche to buy whoever the **** he wants and still have no attempts on goal and be absolute dog shit at home. The comparison is so far from fair it’s untrue. 

Those 3 names were unrealistic with where we were though. Easy to chuck names about and say ‘well if we had them it’s a different story’. 

[petehinton]

25 minutes ago, GTFABM said:

The reason we were going down was not because we lacked a flair player who had a good game 1 in 5. 

Tomlin had 1 good game in 5, by scoring 6 in 18 during his loan that basically kept us up? 

[Fordy62]

27 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Cotterill with Tomlin would’ve kept us up imo. He signed when we had no manager. Put Tomlin in with Cotterill still in charge then we still stay up that season

And Cotts wanted him, but wasn’t allowed. Yet the moment he’s sacked...

[wayne allisons tongues]

26 minutes ago, GTFABM said:

Those 3 names were unrealistic with where we were though. Easy to chuck names about and say ‘well if we had them it’s a different story’. 

I thought we had agreed fees for Maguire and Gray and someone at the club decided to try and get them cheaper after SC had agreed deals for them both.

[GTFABM]

24 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Tomlin had 1 good game in 5, by scoring 6 in 18 during his loan that basically kept us up? 

Ok 1 in 5 in his overall stay here. Also the players that were underperforming under SC suddenly perked up and started performing when he was sacked.

[REDOXO]

On 25/04/2020 at 09:30, Slacker said:

I reckon I would quite fancy Cotts side then to beat Johnsons present side to be honest.

That would be interesting. Who would Smith play for?

[Lrrr]

2 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Andre Gray, Harry Maguire and Dwight Gayle wasn’t it?

But then the rug got pulled from underneath him. 

Disgraceful. 

And now Johnson has got carte Blanche to buy whoever the **** he wants and still have no attempts on goal and be absolute dog shit at home. The comparison is so far from fair it’s untrue. 

Claims Lansdown trusted him with the money in the article yet the club tried to renegotiate as the story goes (pretty sure Gayle wasn't one of the supposed agreed ones) sounds like someones (not necessarily Cotts) not being entirely truthful, unless it was Pelling who took it upon himself without instruction from above, in which scenario no blame would be attributed to Lansdown for Cotts not spending money that summer.

[Fordy62]

1 hour ago, hodge said:

Claims Lansdown trusted him with the money in the article yet the club tried to renegotiate as the story goes (pretty sure Gayle wasn't one of the supposed agreed ones) sounds like someones (not necessarily Cotts) not being entirely truthful, unless it was Pelling who took it upon himself without instruction from above, in which scenario no blame would be attributed to Lansdown for Cotts not spending money that summer.

Yeh, I’m not sure Gayle was either now I think about it. He defo wanted Tomlin though.

As a tangent I wonder how Tomlin’s diet is going during lockdown?!

[Lrrr]

3 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Yeh, I’m not sure Gayle was either now I think about it. He defo wanted Tomlin though.

As a tangent I wonder how Tomlin’s diet is going during lockdown?!

From memory Gayle was a late in the window attempt, not something that would have been sorted before going away

[petehinton]

1 hour ago, hodge said:

Claims Lansdown trusted him with the money in the article yet the club tried to renegotiate as the story goes (pretty sure Gayle wasn't one of the supposed agreed ones) sounds like someones (not necessarily Cotts) not being entirely truthful, unless it was Pelling who took it upon himself without instruction from above, in which scenario no blame would be attributed to Lansdown for Cotts not spending money that summer.

Keith Burt was the one who screwed up most / all deals. Jamie Murphy was another one Cotts identified & agreed but then was offered insulting wages. Notice how he was moved on as soon as LJ came in. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Andre Gray, Harry Maguire and Dwight Gayle wasn’t it?

But then the rug got pulled from underneath him. 

Disgraceful. 

And now Johnson has got carte Blanche to buy whoever the **** he wants and still have no attempts on goal and be absolute dog shit at home. The comparison is so far from fair it’s untrue. 

 

5 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

If we had followed his plan from the start of the season ( transfer window) we would have been pushing at the top end of the table imo.

Again, check revenue, check income, check all this and growth over 4 or 5 years. I'm unconvinced his plan was feasible at that time- in 2015/16 our Revenue for Bristol City Holdings Limited was £14,175,396!!

Gets worse if you look at it from a club and not group company POV- £10,349,426.

Sure it was one of Gray or Gayle and then Maguire too.

The comparison is so far from within context tbh. A graph would explain it better than me but even LJ has had to sell key players, sell to reinvest but also to offset operating losses. As well you know.

Misleading to compare without context.

That's not a defence of LJ btw. I question his transfer policy- I certainly question his ability to get the best out of what he has, to set up a framework, build harmony, spirit, momentum- the lack of control or a framework to gain control in midfield concerns me. The churn is too high, absolutely.

However our revenue at that time was one of a selling club or one that had to build quite slowly. With the handbrake on.

LJ has been a very lucky beneficiary of our revenue growth- some of it of course reinvested from our sales but a happy accident too.

Because, to compare:

2015-16 Bristol City Holdings £14,175,396 and Bristol City FC Limited £10,349,426.

2016-17 Bristol City Holdings £21,248,355 and Bristol City FC Limited £14,293,531.

2017-18 Bristol City Holdings £25,062,080 (if Discontinued Operations included it'd be £25,975,432) and Bristol City FC Limited £17,109,965.

2018-19 Bristol City Holdings £30,250,718 and Bristol City Limited £17,650,301.

Now that is remarkable growth. Remarkable.

I do wonder if Cotts had held fire for a year whether he in fact might have seen the benefits of this steady growth in revenue to use on fees and wages. Not least as we already (on paper but possibly in reality) had a reasonable base in May 2015!

Couple of Graphs from Swiss Ramble for Championship revenue that season- one with Parachute Payments and one with them in the same position but with Parachute Payments listed separately. Had Parachute Payments not existed, 14th wouldn't be ideal and given they did- remember we lost out to Hull for Maguire- PP, and Burnley for Gray- again PP.

@054123 I think Brighton were building up a bit more gradually, infrastructure expenditure- various allowable deductions, but Bournemouth most definitely. They weren't shy of spending a few quid of course, Brighton but they seemed to be putting foundations in place so may have had less ground to make up than say Bournemouth.

[LondonBristolian]

A great interview and really good to see Cotts talking about his time at the club so positively and enthusiastically. I'm in the camp that thinks he had to go at the point he did as - irrespective of where the "fault" lay -  the simple fact seemed to be tension between the manager and the board was impacting negatively on our season. But the 14/15 season was the best football I have ever seen the club play and I'm really glad that, five years on, Cotts, can hold his head up high and talk positively about it. 

[Carey 6]

7 hours ago, petehinton said:

Anyone spot how Cotts has been edited/cut out of any mention of the double winning side recap highlights that the club have been posting...?

 

7 hours ago, NickJ said:

Yes, I have.

I’ve also noticed it, it’s almost as if they want us to forget about him, it’s very weird. 

They posted a video on Instagram of the Swindon highlights a couple of weeks ago which was edited to remove Cotterills celebration after the 3rd goal. 

He also hasn’t been in any videos/photos either. 

We should celebrate Cotterills reign as a great point in the clubs history instead of trying to remove all signs of him from the past. 

 

 

[GTFABM]

18 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

 

I’ve also noticed it, it’s almost as if they want us to forget about him, it’s very weird. 

They posted a video on Instagram of the Swindon highlights a couple of weeks ago which was edited to remove Cotterills celebration after the 3rd goal. 

He also hasn’t been in any videos/photos either. 

We should celebrate Cotterills reign as a great point in the clubs history instead of trying to remove all signs of him from the past. 

 

 

That would make me think something happened beyond what people speculate. Must have been more than just a disagreement and clash of personalities.

[tin]

On 25/04/2020 at 09:43, Lew-T said:

Found this bit interesting...

Sometimes you have to be flexible, but the key is communicating that to your players clearly. 

For me the key to a good team is having a clear idea and that gets muddled up these days when people talk about ‘identity’. If you have an identity it means you can only play one way, so I don’t think you want an identity.

People may say my team had one, but they had a clear idea of what to do if a team pressed us, or dropped off us. That’s what in the end gave us a winning system, the players being comfortable with us on the pitch. 

We spent a lot of time in the classroom and that was key, especially when the lads’ legs were a bit heavy due to the amount of games we had to play.  

Football can be played in a lot of different ways: aggressive, defensive, attacking, counter-attacking – you can’t say one is good and one is bad. There is not one winning system, you just need to be comfortable with yours. 

It’s about having a clear idea, not an identity, otherwise you’re easy to work out.

Cotterill hits the nail firmly on the head with his “identity” comment. I’ve always through bleating on about that is a complete load of bollocks and belongs in David Brent’s handbook. 

[Bernard Lerring]

1 hour ago, Carey 6 said:

 

He also hasn’t been in any videos/photos either. 

We should celebrate Cotterills reign as a great point in the clubs history instead of trying to remove all signs of him from the past. 

 

 

Gotta be Johnsons doing i reckon... it's like when you move in with your new missus and all your possessions that have links to your ex start to curiously disappear!

[RED4LIFE]

4 hours ago, hodge said:

From memory Gayle was a late in the window attempt, not something that would have been sorted before going away

Not true.

I had heard we were after Gayle in late May from someone pretty close SC. It was a few months later that it came out publicly we were interested. 

[Lrrr]

7 minutes ago, RED4LIFE said:

Not true.

I had heard we were after Gayle in late May from someone pretty close SC. It was a few months later that it came out publicly we were interested. 

The actual bid/Gayle declining to come down to even talked from memory was later in the window? When we were seemingly chucking £7m to £9m bids around

[RED4LIFE]

2 minutes ago, hodge said:

The actual bid/Gayle declining to come down to even talked from memory was later in the window? When we were seemingly chucking £7m to £9m bids around

As far as I know that is right but we made contact/showed interest a lot earlier than that. When I was told about our interest I was asked not to mention it so I didnt.

I can remember at the time it came out publicly I posted on here something along the lines of 'I've been waiting for this to come out for ages' or words to that effect.

Wouldve been a great signing too as we were desperate for a Championship standard goalscorer at that time.

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

3 hours ago, JonDolman said:

They didn't have that winning mentality in the championship.

They won so many games and won the league because we had top league one, and quite a number of championship quality players.

That winning mentality started to change in the fan base when we didn’t sign the players we were linked with and had a tough start to the season in a more difficult league as I said. The point was, after that game at Sheffield Utd and away at Notts County where we edged a close encounter it was if the fan base knew we were in for a good season and every game felt like a party, 

It was buzzing home and away

[wayne allisons tongues]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@054123 I think Brighton were building up a bit more gradually, infrastructure expenditure- various allowable deductions, but Bournemouth most definitely. They weren't shy of spending a few quid of course, Brighton but they seemed to be putting foundations in place so may have had less ground to make up than say Bournemouth.

I was told we had agreed fees for Maguire and Gray and was all cleared with the board.

SC went on holiday come back to find the 2 players he had tied up were now going elsewhere due to someone at the club trying to save some money and get them both cheaper. 
The money most of been there for was being reported we were bidding £7m+ for Gayle later in the window.

£2.5m Maguire and £4m for Gray was figures I was told had been agreed. if you consider we signed Kodja for £2m there was money there. Just think it was unusual for people in the backroom doing deals at the time vanished quite quickly off the scene after.
 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

39 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

I was told we had agreed fees for Maguire and Gray and was all cleared with the board.

SC went on holiday come back to find the 2 players he had tied up were now going elsewhere due to someone at the club trying to save some money and get them both cheaper. 
The money most of been there for was being reported we were bidding £7m+ for Gayle later in the window.

£2.5m Maguire and £4m for Gray was figures I was told had been agreed. if you consider we signed Kodja for £2m there was money there. Just think it was unusual for people in the backroom doing deals at the time vanished quite quickly off the scene after.
 

 

Well I dunno- it's not even so much the fees but the wages too.

Perhaps the club were looking to edge it down a bit due to FFP risks. We did lose £14.9m that season after all.

When you have a turnover of £14m or thereabouts within FFP regs...you are limited in a division like the Championship! 

I'm questioning whether it was feasible at the time, plus looking forward, to get the deals done on the terms that Cotts wanted.

Plus, supposing we had signed Maguire and Gray. Easy to sell on one or both if necessary, right? Well yes and certainly with hindsight. However say one of them had got crocked- we could have had the losses piling up, a relative lack of saleable assets and one of our get out of jail saleable assets crocked- big hit on FFP, no profit to offset, yet wages. Imagine if both had been crocked- or both had terrible form- again, asset value plummets- it's happened to better players or players from a higher starting point than that.

That season our revenue was 18th in the Championship. Both went to clubs with parachute Payments or year 1 of them- didn't quite seem the time IMO. Matter of debate of course.

Another question is, would Cotts have been open to selling one or two- ie one or both- of his marquee players when the time came? Which it would have.

[Ron W]

2 hours ago, Bernard Lerring said:

Gotta be Johnsons doing i reckon... it's like when you move in with your new missus and all your possessions that have links to your ex start to curiously disappear!

I would strongly wager it’s not LJ’s doing but another public face of Bristol Sport.

[NickJ]

8 hours ago, GTFABM said:

That would make me think something happened beyond what people speculate. Must have been more than just a disagreement and clash of personalities.

It sort of was.

Cotterill was appointed on his terms. His terms were/are he's an old school manager, with responsibility for transfers, the lot. I recall when he was appointed, him saying that he is a Manager, not a coach, he was very clear about that.

That was a deviation from policy, but the cub were desperate, we were headed for the 4th division.

It worked.

Towards the end of the title winning season, he continued with what he'd been doing, identifying a small number of additions to strengthen the team for the following season. The team, not the squad, or "the group" in namby pamby modern football parlance. Unlike before and particularly since, Cotterill's policy so far as I can see was to only buy a player if it improved a specific position.

However much some don't want to accept it's true, it is true that Maguire and Gray had been identified, and deals agreed. At that point somebody decided they didn't like SC having that much power, so changed the rules.

A weaker person than Cotterill would have shrugged shoulders and got on with it. It then did become a disagreement and clash of personalities. With who? I know what SC thinks of one individual who played a key role. Not saying his view is necessarily right, or wrong. I haven't heard the other persons explanation.

[Bernard Lerring]

5 hours ago, RonWalker said:

I would strongly wager it’s not LJ’s doing but another public face of Bristol Sport.

Ah sorry mate, that was only meant to be a joke. I'm not honestly suggesting Johnson is making demands like that 

[Robbored]

53 minutes ago, NickJ said:

A weaker person than Cotterill would have shrugged shoulders and got on with it. It then did become a disagreement and clash of personalities. With who? I know what SC thinks of one individual who played a key role. Not saying his view is necessarily right, or wrong. I haven't heard the other persons explanation.

Well......I and others heard Steve Lansdowns explanation at Senior Reds at the Christmas Lunch why SC was subsequently replaced in January. 

It wasn’t too complicated and the bottom line is that SL had lost any trust in SC to deliver his strategy and wanted a Head Coach/ manager who would and in comes Lee Johnson.

[NickJ]

10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Well......I and others heard Steve Lansdowns explanation at Senior Reds at the Christmas Lunch why SC was subsequently replaced in January. 

It wasn’t too complicated and the bottom line is that SL had lost any trust in SC to deliver his strategy and wanted a Head Coach/ manager who would and in comes Lee Johnson.

We may be sort of in agreement then, it just depends what was said and when.

As I said, SC made his terms very clear when he joined, existing strategy at that time went out of the window.

Cotterill's terms were unarguably successful.

His terms were unilaterally changed. He didn't like it.

[Pezo]

7 hours ago, You Do The Dziekanowski said:

That winning mentality started to change in the fan base when we didn’t sign the players we were linked with and had a tough start to the season in a more difficult league as I said. The point was, after that game at Sheffield Utd and away at Notts County where we edged a close encounter it was if the fan base knew we were in for a good season and every game felt like a party, 

It was buzzing home and away

I can remember a load of posts from that season about a real lack of atmosphere - mainly blamed on the open end of the ground. It was almost expected that we would win and there was pretty much no atmosphere - turn up clap the inevitable goals and go home. As I was sat next to the away fans I was expecting more but being league 1 there's only about 5 teams that would bring more than a couple hundred. The EE crowd were split up with some of them in the Williams - as far away from any other people that would sing as possible 

The only game I can remember any strong atmosphere was probably against Swindon.

[Robbored]

47 minutes ago, NickJ said:

We may be sort of in agreement then, it just depends what was said and when.

As I said, SC made his terms very clear when he joined, existing strategy at that time went out of the window.

Cotterill's terms were unarguably successful.

His terms were unilaterally changed. He didn't like it.

There was at least two games under SC when there were no younger players on the bench and in one particular game there was an empty place and that pissed SL right off and probably the first nail in SCs coffin.

When SC went to Lansdown and asked for funding and told him that he’d got all he could out out of the squad and that was probably the second nail............

We all know that SLs strategy was/is to develop youngsters into Championship quality players and SC wasn’t seen to be giving these youngsters any opportunity and that was probably the third nail............

 

 

[tin]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

We all know that SLs strategy was/is to develop youngsters into Championship quality players and SC wasn’t seen to be giving these youngsters any opportunity and that was probably the third nail............

It's hard to believe anyone could claim Cotterill wasn't giving the youngsters a chance when he was the one responsible for bringing Joe Bryan through, developing Luke Ayling and Luke Freeman (who were both sold for apittance), and Aden Flint. They were all in their early 20s at that time. 

From memory, most of the youngsters we had coming through at that time were nowhere near ready for the first team which makes it an odd stick to beat him with.