Steve Cotterill article

[CyderInACan]

Saw Cotts when I was out running Saturday, he was having a little solo stroll around the harbourside by the Pump House. In another world I'd have stopped and shook his hand. 

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, tin said:

It's hard to believe anyone could claim Cotterill wasn't giving the youngsters a chance when he was the one responsible for bringing Joe Bryan through, developing Luke Ayling and Luke Freeman (who were both sold for apittance), and Aden Flint. They were all in their early 20s at that time. 

From memory, most of the youngsters we had coming through at that time were nowhere near ready for the first team which makes it an odd stick to beat him with. 

The ‘strategy’ was bring in younger players either from lower  tier academies or through our own academy. Only Bryan was a City academy graduate.

Flint was signed from Swindon as an established player as was Ayling signed from Yeovil. So to Freeman who was signed from Stevenage. None of them exactly development players.

Name one player other than JB that SC developed or gave their debut to?

[Selred]

2 hours ago, tin said:

From memory, most of the youngsters we had coming through at that time were nowhere near ready for the first team which makes it an odd stick to beat him with. 

Even still SC decided to leave spare seats on the bench rather than allow youngsters to be in the match day squad. 

We had some good youngsters like Kelly and Morrell. Being in the match day squad would of done their confidence the world of good. 

Anyway loved SC, terrific season in league one. Was he the manager or the coach? If he was manager he shot himself in the foot going after too high profile players, but if the coach he should of had more support and more players in in the first place. 

[Ron W]

5 hours ago, Bernard Lerring said:

Ah sorry mate, that was only meant to be a joke. I'm not honestly suggesting Johnson is making demands like that 

They do say things are funny cause they’re true!

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

Even still SC decided to leave spare seats on the bench rather than allow youngsters to be in the match day squad. 

We had some good youngsters like Kelly and Morrell. Being in the match day squad would of done their confidence the world of good. 

Anyway loved SC, terrific season in league one. Was he the manager or the coach? If he was manager he shot himself in the foot going after too high profile players, but if the coach he should of had more support and more players in in the first place. 

That's a fair analysis.

Cotterill obviously thought by making a point (not putting youngsters on the bench, which in the overall scheme while not good, wasn't so heinous) he was making a point that would eventually help him get his way. He miscalculated.

The question I would ask is this.

If you are an employer, and you have an employee who has proved his brilliance, but makes a relatively minor mistake, and/or is not currently performing at the level which he has demonstrated he is capable of, what do you do.

Do you:

(a) sit down, talk it through, and in this particular case, establish the cause of the employees grumbles (desired transfers did not happen) and resolve to work together to put it right during the transfer window and beyond, knowing that employee, having proved his brilliance before, will most likely do it again, and what is more, deserves the chance to do so.

Or do you:

(b) sack him.

 

[Lrrr]

33 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Do you:

(a) sit down, talk it through, and in this particular case, establish the cause of the employees grumbles (desired transfers did not happen) and resolve to work together to put it right during the transfer window and beyond, knowing that employee, having proved his brilliance before, will most likely do it again, and what is more, deserves the chance to do so.

Or do you:

(b) sack him.

Bit dramatic given the probable outcome we were heading towards and the financial implications of it as well as incidents like the altercation with the fan just before, that alone would have put huge strain on his job position, can't remember but was he held back by stewards

[GTFABM]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

That's a fair analysis.

Cotterill obviously thought by making a point (not putting youngsters on the bench, which in the overall scheme while not good, wasn't so heinous) he was making a point that would eventually help him get his way. He miscalculated.

The question I would ask is this.

If you are an employer, and you have an employee who has proved his brilliance, but makes a relatively minor mistake, and/or is not currently performing at the level which he has demonstrated he is capable of, what do you do.

Do you:

(a) sit down, talk it through, and in this particular case, establish the cause of the employees grumbles (desired transfers did not happen) and resolve to work together to put it right during the transfer window and beyond, knowing that employee, having proved his brilliance before, will most likely do it again, and what is more, deserves the chance to do so.

Or do you:

(b) sack him.

 

By brilliance you mean walking to the league 1 title with easily the best squad in that league at the time?

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

If you are an employer, and you have an employee who has proved his brilliance, but makes a relatively minor mistake, and/or is not currently performing at the level which he has demonstrated he is capable of, what do you do.

Do you:

(a) sit down, talk it through, and in this particular case, establish the cause of the employees grumbles (desired transfers did not happen) and resolve to work together to put it right during the transfer window and beyond, knowing that employee, having proved his brilliance before, will most likely do it again, and what is more, deserves the chance to do so.

Or do you:

(b) sack him.

 

If you had lost faith/trust in said employee then you would do what SL did and sack him - that’s  why SC was replaced by a man who SL could have faith and trust in.

[Slacker]

19 minutes ago, Robbored said:

If you had lost faith/trust in said employee then you would do what SL did and sack him - that’s  why SC was replaced by a man who SL could have faith and trust in.

I presume you mean a "yes man"?

[tin]

5 hours ago, Robbored said:

The ‘strategy’ was bring in younger players either from lower  tier academies or through our own academy. Only Bryan was a City academy graduate.

Flint was signed from Swindon as an established player as was Ayling signed from Yeovil. So to Freeman who was signed from Stevenage. None of them exactly development players.

Name one player other than JB that SC developed or gave their debut to?

What difference does it make if you give an academy player their debut or not? If they're not up to scratch, they shouldn't be playing. The same applies the other way round.

I don't think you can gloss over the role Cotterill played in developing the likes of Bryan, Flint, Pack, Freeman or Ayling - all of whom have gone on to bigger and better things than us. It was clear at the time we had the nucleus of a very good team. Getting a few quality additions in over the summer of 2015, and doing them early, would've made all the difference. 

4 hours ago, Selred said:

Even still SC decided to leave spare seats on the bench rather than allow youngsters to be in the match day squad. 

We had some good youngsters like Kelly and Morrell. Being in the match day squad would of done their confidence the world of good. 

It was baffling he left a spot on the bench going spare, but I could understand the logic and interpreted that at the time as a message to the board that he wanted more backing as the existing youngsters were either not ready or not good enough.

At the start of 2015/16, Morrell was 17, Kelly was 15. Let's not forget that LJ still thinks Morrell's not ready - five  years on. Kelly didn't make his debut until 2017. Neither were ready when Cotterill was manager, IMO. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 hours ago, NickJ said:

It sort of was.

Cotterill was appointed on his terms. His terms were/are he's an old school manager, with responsibility for transfers, the lot. I recall when he was appointed, him saying that he is a Manager, not a coach, he was very clear about that.

That was a deviation from policy, but the cub were desperate, we were headed for the 4th division.

It worked.

Towards the end of the title winning season, he continued with what he'd been doing, identifying a small number of additions to strengthen the team for the following season. The team, not the squad, or "the group" in namby pamby modern football parlance. Unlike before and particularly since, Cotterill's policy so far as I can see was to only buy a player if it improved a specific position.

However much some don't want to accept it's true, it is true that Maguire and Gray had been identified, and deals agreed. At that point somebody decided they didn't like SC having that much power, so changed the rules.

A weaker person than Cotterill would have shrugged shoulders and got on with it. It then did become a disagreement and clash of personalities. With who? I know what SC thinks of one individual who played a key role. Not saying his view is necessarily right, or wrong. I haven't heard the other persons explanation.

Was it within budgetary constraints at the time? That's a key question. If it was then full sympathy with Cotts, if not then I'm unsure what to think. 

Certainly no excuse for apparent airbrushing of him and his achievements here now though. Things did get progressively worse through the 5-6 months before he went ie more thrashing, more goals in the last 10 mins (always an indicator of a struggling side) conceded. Regardless, airbrushing is still unwarranted.

In general though, I wonder if Bristol Sport, the club now have at times airbrushed less favourable (in their opinion) aspects of our past, our history.

[RedYoshi]

Not sure where this airbrushing thing has occurred - he’s regularly mentioned in the review, and is in several of the photos/videos. What have I missed?

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/robins-rewind-201415-season-review-part-one/

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/robins-rewind-201415-season-review-part-two/

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/robins-rewind-201415-season-review-part-three/

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/robins-rewind-201415-season-review-part-four/

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/robins-rewind-201415-season-review-part-five/

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/robins-rewind-201415-season-review-part-six/

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/robins-rewind-201415-season-review-part-seven/

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/robins-rewind-201415-season-review-part-eight/

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/robins-rewind-201415-season-review-part-nine/

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, tin said:

What difference does it make if you give an academy player their debut or not? If they're not up to scratch, they shouldn't be playing. The same applies the other way round.

I don't think you can gloss over the role Cotterill played in developing the likes of Bryan, Flint, Pack, Freeman or Ayling - all of whom have gone on to bigger and better things than us. It was clear at the time we had the nucleus of a very good team. Getting a few quality additions in over the summer of 2015, and doing them early, would've made all the difference. 

It was baffling he left a spot on the bench going spare, but I could understand the logic and interpreted that at the time as a message to the board that he wanted more backing as the existing youngsters were either not ready or not good enough.

At the start of 2015/16, Morrell was 17, Kelly was 15. Let's not forget that LJ still thinks Morrell's not ready - five  years on. Kelly didn't make his debut until 2017. Neither were ready when Cotterill was manager, IMO. 

The point about Ayling, Flint and Freeman is that they were already established professional footballers, all three progressing up the leagues with each more. City was an opportunity for them to play with and against better quality players and all three eventually moved on having gained valuable experience at City. It’s of no consequence who was the manger at the time and I can’t see that it was down to SC that they all earned lucrative moves - that was down to them playing higher up.

SL was and still is enthusiastic about developing young players as a significant part of his sustainability policy and the fact that SC was not delivering was what ultimately cost him his job.

[NickJ]

4 hours ago, GTFABM said:

By brilliance you mean walking to the league 1 title with easily the best squad in that league at the time?

Yes. Amazing ability to identify the right players to keep, recruit the best ones to add, and quickly mould them into such a team.

Not only that, but also, as many players have alluded to, managed them brilliantly and created a second to none dressing room atmosphere.

Remarkable what he achieved, considering that when he took over just 18 months earlier, we were bottom of the 3rd headed for the 4th.

[wayne allisons tongues]

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

The ‘strategy’ was bring in younger players either from lower  tier academies or through our own academy. Only Bryan was a City academy graduate.

Flint was signed from Swindon as an established player as was Ayling signed from Yeovil. So to Freeman who was signed from Stevenage. None of them exactly development players.

Name one player other than JB that SC developed or gave their debut to?

Same can be said for LJ who has he developed through the academy and sold.

Bryan, Reid were at club under SC only person I can think in 4 years he has developed through the youth team is Lloyd Kelly.

Kodja SC signing

Flint and Pack SOD signings 

Brownhill was developed at Preston

Webster we signed from Ipswich 

Who has LJ developed 

[Robbored]

23 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

Same can be said for LJ who has he developed through the academy and sold.

Bryan, Reid were at club under SC only person I can think in 4 years he has developed through the youth team is Lloyd Kelly.

Kodja SC signing

Flint and Pack SOD signings 

Brownhill was developed at Preston

Webster we signed from Ipswich 

Who has LJ developed 

Webster came on leaps and bounds in just one season as did Kelly under LJs tutelage.

[wayne allisons tongues]

13 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Webster came on leaps and bounds in just one season as did Kelly under LJs tutelage.

So did Flint, Bryan, Ayling, Freeman and Kodja under SC 

But you never answered the question apart from Kelly who has LJ developed and brought through to the first team.

All the players he has sold were either spotted by the scouting team or SOD and SC developed and bought.

[Rich]

20 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Webster came on leaps and bounds in just one season as did Kelly under LJs tutelage.

Really! You'd seen that much of him playing for Ipswich? Webster was already a very good player, just suffered with injuries previously, that's why we got him cheaper. He managed a full season with us and we cashed in straight away.

Kelly was having an awful time, after first coming into the squad/team and making bit part appearances. The lads confidence was shot and he rarely featured towards the end and at times had the crowd on his back for his lacklustre displays. 

[Rich]

Saw Mr Cotterill walking around the docks today, he gave me a wave of acknowledgement, even though he doesn't know me.

 

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

Really! You'd seen that much of him playing for Ipswich? Webster was already a very good player, just suffered with injuries previously, that's why we got him cheaper. He managed a full season with us and we cashed in straight away.

Kelly was having an awful time, after first coming into the squad/team and making bit part appearances. The lads confidence was shot and he rarely featured towards the end and at times had the crowd on his back for his lacklustre displays. 

Kelly had a good enough season Bournemouth were willing to part with £13m odd for him, Jay had also had an excellent season which kept Lloyd out, he was 19/20 when playing for us and had the 19th highest minutes count for a LB in the champ of 48 left backs, he went from playing 662 minutes the season before to playing over 2300.

1 hour ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

So did Flint, Bryan, Ayling, Freeman and Kodja under SC 

But you never answered the question apart from Kelly who has LJ developed and brought through to the first team.

All the players he has sold were either spotted by the scouting team or SOD and SC developed and bought.

Bobby definitely counts as a player LJ developed, whether he was at the club already or not he had his best season by a mile under LJ after being at a point where most people were indifferent to his departure  if he was released to being sold for a potential 8 figure fee.

[Selred]

7 hours ago, tin said:

It was baffling he left a spot on the bench going spare, but I could understand the logic and interpreted that at the time as a message to the board that he wanted more backing as the existing youngsters were either not ready or not good enough.

At the start of 2015/16, Morrell was 17, Kelly was 15. Let's not forget that LJ still thinks Morrell's not ready - five  years on. Kelly didn't make his debut until 2017. Neither were ready when Cotterill was manager, IMO.

If I was upset with something my company was doing I'd not publically pull a stunt like leaving a spot on the bench available. I'd have chats about it behind closed doors. Whether they are ready or not, it's good experience for them. You only have 3 substitutes so they didn't have to play but its just good experience to be in the dressing room. Don't forget SC took Kelly and Harper to Portugal for pre season that year. 

 

[RobintheRed Red]

14 hours ago, Robbored said:

The ‘strategy’ was bring in younger players either from lower  tier academies or through our own academy. Only Bryan was a City academy graduate.

Flint was signed from Swindon as an established player as was Ayling signed from Yeovil. So to Freeman who was signed from Stevenage. None of them exactly development players.

Name one player other than JB that SC developed or gave their debut to?

Wouldnt say johnson plays young kids wheres Taylor-moore joe morrell zack vyner when weve been crying out for a decent right back earlier in the season also.

[Robbored]

6 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Wouldnt say johnson plays young kids wheres Taylor-moore joe morrell zack vyner when weve been crying out for a decent right back earlier in the season also.

LJ at least gives youngsters the opportunity. Vyner, Eisa, Semenyo, Moore, Walsh to name just five.The fact that they aren’t quite Championship quality yet is why they they went out on loan to gain experience in competitive league football.

[IdliketoRogerMoore]

On 26/04/2020 at 15:43, wayne allisons tongues said:

I thought we had agreed fees for Maguire and Gray and someone at the club decided to try and get them cheaper after SC had agreed deals for them both.

To be fair that sort of renegotiation goes on all the time! 
if you can get some cheaper for whatever reason you do!

[tin]

16 hours ago, Robbored said:

The point about Ayling, Flint and Freeman is that they were already established professional footballers, all three progressing up the leagues with each more. City was an opportunity for them to play with and against better quality players and all three eventually moved on having gained valuable experience at City. It’s of no consequence who was the manger at the time and I can’t see that it was down to SC that they all earned lucrative moves - that was down to them playing higher up.

SL was and still is enthusiastic about developing young players as a significant part of his sustainability policy and the fact that SC was not delivering was what ultimately cost him his job.

You don't think Cotterill deserves credit for identifying those players on the up, getting them through the door and moulding them into a promotion-winning squad, all while getting the best out of underperforming players who were already here?

For me, that group of players was one of the best City teams in my 28 years of following the club and Cotterill deserves credit for that. 

10 hours ago, Selred said:

If I was upset with something my company was doing I'd not publically pull a stunt like leaving a spot on the bench available. I'd have chats about it behind closed doors. Whether they are ready or not, it's good experience for them. You only have 3 substitutes so they didn't have to play but its just good experience to be in the dressing room. Don't forget SC took Kelly and Harper to Portugal for pre season that year. 

 

If an buts - we don't know what went out behind closed doors but I know Cotterill isn't one to get splinters in his arse and am sure he 'had a chat behind closed doors' that we're not privy to for obvious reasons. As I previously said, I agree with you it was odd to go in with one less sub - but I can only offer my interpretation of why he did it. One that made sense. 

[The Coach]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

LJ at least gives youngsters the opportunity. Vyner, Eisa, Semenyo, Moore, Walsh to name just five.The fact that they aren’t quite Championship quality yet is why they they went out on loan to gain experience in competitive league football.

Uhhh when has he actually given any of those a run of games? Bar Moore who we then shipped out to Blackpool...

Semenyo, you are correct on.

[Portland Bill]

23 hours ago, Robbored said:

The ‘strategy’ was bring in younger players either from lower  tier academies or through our own academy. Only Bryan was a City academy graduate.

Flint was signed from Swindon as an established player as was Ayling signed from Yeovil. So to Freeman who was signed from Stevenage. None of them exactly development players.

Name one player other than JB that SC developed or gave their debut to?

So I presume that strategy doesn’t apply to Lee Johnson then ?

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

LJ at least gives youngsters the opportunity. Vyner, Eisa, Semenyo, Moore, Walsh to name just five.The fact that they aren’t quite Championship quality yet is why they they went out on loan to gain experience in competitive league football.

Comical, you are trying to spin things to suit your viewpoint.

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

So I presume that strategy doesn’t apply to Lee Johnson then ?

Ummmm..........

Why do suppose City have so many youngsters out on loan?

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Comical, you are trying to spin things to suit your viewpoint.

Why is stating facts  ‘comical’ Bill?