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Joe Jordan 1990


alexukhc

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Asked the question on a previous thread, but in danger of the thread changing subject, I ask some of you-

What do you think Joe could’ve or would’ve done? When he left, how far did it set us back? When did we recover? Have we ever recovered? Etc

As I started supporting City as a child he just left, so I don’t know the history

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Its difficult to say. JJ had certainly given us a lot of momentum since taking over from Terry Cooper and raised the profile of the club. He seemed to be able to attract players to City. Not sure if long term it would have carried on but momentum is a big thing in football and after the promotion in 1990 we were still accelerating.  Joe leaving stalled our momentum.  We will never know if he could have got us promoted that season but it could be argued that he would have least got us into the play offs that we just missed out on under Lumsden. I think he was the right person at the right time for City, whereas when he came back for his second spell the club was a bit of a shambles.

Goes to show how much football has changed. Just cant imagine a manager leaving us for Hearts now and seeing it as a forward step. Different times. Guess Joe at the time might have seen it as a stepping stone for the Scotland Job which would have seemed attractive in those days as well

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He would have left anyway at some point because his ambition and competence far outstripped that of the Board above him. 

It was frankly inevitable that he would eventually have been frustrated to the point of accepting an offer from elsewhere. He'd already turned down Aston Villa before departing for Hearts - by rejecting Villa he demonstrated the belief he had in BCFC - belief those above him fatally failed to match at the time. (Doubly disappointing given the money given soon after to subsequent managers to sign players from the likes of Celtic and Arsenal) 

Jimmy Lumsden kept the wheels on the wagon until the end of the season but then things began to slowly unravel - hardly surprising, given Lumsden was a good coach and No.2 but not one of life's leaders of men, not a figurehead, not a No.1.

He did sign Jacki though!!

And Joe's leaving, and Jimmy's demise, did lead to Denis Smith - who signed Andy Cole!      

And Joe's leaving, and Jimmy's demise, and Denis Smith's sacking, did lead to Russell Osman - who gave us Anfield 94!

So in answer to your questions.... I dunno.

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51 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

 

So in answer to your questions.... I dunno.

Is the correct answer .

In other news , It felt like a kick in the teeth when big Joe left , he was talismanic for the club and Jimmy Lumsden always felt like the cheap option as his replacement. ( not like City to hire a cheap replacement !  ) 

 

:whistle2:

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2 hours ago, Buster Footman's T shirt said:

Its difficult to say. JJ had certainly given us a lot of momentum since taking over from Terry Cooper and raised the profile of the club. He seemed to be able to attract players to City. Not sure if long term it would have carried on but momentum is a big thing in football and after the promotion in 1990 we were still accelerating.  Joe leaving stalled our momentum.  We will never know if he could have got us promoted that season but it could be argued that he would have least got us into the play offs that we just missed out on under Lumsden. I think he was the right person at the right time for City, whereas when he came back for his second spell the club was a bit of a shambles.

Goes to show how much football has changed. Just cant imagine a manager leaving us for Hearts now and seeing it as a forward step. Different times. Guess Joe at the time might have seen it as a stepping stone for the Scotland Job which would have seemed attractive in those days as well

I’m pretty sure that the Scotland job was the main reason he went to Hearts, he saw the Hearts job as a stepping stone to the job he really wanted. It made no sense that he would turn down Villa and then go to Hearts. 

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12 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

I’m pretty sure that the Scotland job was the main reason he went to Hearts, he saw the Hearts job as a stepping stone to the job he really wanted. It made no sense that he would turn down Villa and then go to Hearts. 

Pretty sure you're bang on the money there, Bill
Sure something was put out in the media that you had to be managing in Scotland in order to be under consideration the next time the job came up. I was on day release at college when the news came through he'd gone, I was devastated. That JJ team was the best I've seen in my time, better than SC's all conquering team of the recent past. As others have said though, the board we had at the time weren't going to keep a manager like that at the club much longer

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4 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

He would have left anyway at some point because his ambition and competence far outstripped that of the Board above him. 

Sums up much of my thoughts of us as a club.

Never really ever believed in ourselves

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3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Is the correct answer .

In other news , It felt like a kick in the teeth when big Joe left , he was talismanic for the club and Jimmy Lumsden always felt like the cheap option as his replacement. ( not like City to hire a cheap replacement !  ) 

 

:whistle2:

The big part in not progressing as far as i could tell at the time was Jimmy's son dying. He could never give the club everything he wanted to after that.  As we were hitting the heights Jimmy's world was ripped from beneath him. A tale of what ifs for city and a truly terrible tale for Jimmy and his family.

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14 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Sums up much of my thoughts of us as a club.

Never really ever believed in ourselves

Sad to say, pretty much any time we've ever made strides on the pitch, it's not been long before egos, infighting and incompetence off the pitch have derailed us.

That's certainly the case in the modern era but we managed to get relegated a mere 2 years after reaching the FA Cup Final in 1909, so guess it's just what we do - one step forwards, two steps backwards.

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14 minutes ago, TRL said:

The big part in not progressing as far as i could tell at the time was Jimmy's son dying. He could never give the club everything he wanted to after that.  As we were hitting the heights Jimmy's world was ripped from beneath him. A tale of what ifs for city and a truly terrible tale for Jimmy and his family.

Indeed. 

Jimmy Lumsden's son dies.

Dean Horrix dies in a car crash.

Bob Taylor's mum dies (at some point early in 90/91 season).

All this in about one calendar year, or a bit less than that.

 

Add to this, when Bob's mother died, his missus and 6 month old first born were living in Newcastle. 

So, Bob moves to West Brom and saves about two and a half hour's travelling every time he wants to see his child and missus, plus he gets a boss who isn't himself dealing, or not dealing, with unresolved grief. No offence to Jimmy, but I doubt he had the capacity to "manage" Bob and everything that was going on for him, early 90/91, when the goals were not going in for him (wonder why?)

 

Jimmy Lumsden deserves every sympathy, though. Poor bloke.

 

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Anyone else ever read Joe’s autobiography? He turned Villa down as Doug Ellis wouldn’t let him bring all his back room staff with him. The move to Hearts was indeed made with one eye on the Scotland job.

Interestingly, he said that when the tribunal ordered Hearts to pay City £70k compensation, the Chairman Wallace Mercer told him he’d have to sell a player to cover it! He said at that point he felt sick to the pit of his stomach knowing he’d made a mistake.

Maybe the question should be did Joe Jordan’s career ever recover from leaving City first time around?

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1 hour ago, BS15_RED said:

Anyone else ever read Joe’s autobiography? He turned Villa down as Doug Ellis wouldn’t let him bring all his back room staff with him. The move to Hearts was indeed made with one eye on the Scotland job.

Interestingly, he said that when the tribunal ordered Hearts to pay City £70k compensation, the Chairman Wallace Mercer told him he’d have to sell a player to cover it! He said at that point he felt sick to the pit of his stomach knowing he’d made a mistake.

Maybe the question should be did Joe Jordan’s career ever recover from leaving City first time around?

Yes I've read it too. You get the feeling that, in hindsight, he regretted leaving for Hearts as it was a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire, so to speak.

As a manager I'd say his career never recovered - he let his heart rule his head in joining Hearts (and likewise when joining Celtic as assistant to Liam Brady). Stoke wasn't a great success and then it was back to us (heart ruling head again) to try and dig us out of the mire as we were on the slide.

As an assistant to Harry Redknapp at Portsmouth and Spurs I'd say he did well. After that it tails off again and now it's scouting (last I heard for Boro)

No-one can ever take away those years first time round with us though - an incredible, galvinising effect on everyone and everything.

In the summer of 1990 he had an army behind him. If only we could've had a little bit longer together!  

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1 hour ago, BS15_RED said:

Anyone else ever read Joe’s autobiography? He turned Villa down as Doug Ellis wouldn’t let him bring all his back room staff with him. The move to Hearts was indeed made with one eye on the Scotland job.

Interestingly, he said that when the tribunal ordered Hearts to pay City £70k compensation, the Chairman Wallace Mercer told him he’d have to sell a player to cover it! He said at that point he felt sick to the pit of his stomach knowing he’d made a mistake.

Maybe the question should be did Joe Jordan’s career ever recover from leaving City first time around?

Has any manager gone onto better things after leaving City apart from pulis 

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I believed at the time when Joe left for Hearts, that it was almost as significant as 1982 and all that.

In hindsight, I'd say now that it was  much worse. With Joe we had a top international as our leader and we would have gone up again if he had stayed.

Doubtful if we have ever recovered.

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