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A comparison. English v German club football


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Not in terms of style / entertainment , but purely in terms of being organised properly.  To have a collective attitude.

 

On the day the Bundesliga is given the go ahead to resume, the game here is shown to be a mess.  Dominated by greed and selfishness with inept governance.  

 

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49 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Not in terms of style / entertainment , but purely in terms of being organised properly.  To have a collective attitude.

 

On the day the Bundesliga is given the go ahead to resume, the game here is shown to be a mess.  Dominated by greed and selfishness with inept governance.  

 

We won the war, they've won everything since (pretty much). It's still a surprise that we managed to win the war (all on our own, let's not forget) when you think about it. 

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1 hour ago, The Bard said:

Not in terms of style / entertainment , but purely in terms of being organised properly.  To have a collective attitude.

 

On the day the Bundesliga is given the go ahead to resume, the game here is shown to be a mess.  Dominated by greed and selfishness with inept governance.  

 

Demonstrates the immense cultural difference. Football is a social construct so it reflects the conditions of the society in which its played. If you have a problem with the game in the UK, then you have a problem with society in the UK. In my opinion, everyone should. 

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11 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Demonstrates the immense cultural difference. Football is a social construct so it reflects the conditions of the society in which its played. If you have a problem with the game in the UK, then you have a problem with society in the UK. In my opinion, everyone should. 

You aren’t suggesting our society in this country has become selfish and greedy are you?? Surely not.

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No doubt the Bundesliga is a better experience for the attending fan.... it's cheaper, you can drink, stand up, etc etc Unless, you actually want competitive football.

Here's a list of champions from the 2012-13 season on.

Bayern Munich

...

Want to know who's top this year? I'll give you one guess!

So how is this going to change? Well as the T.V revenue money is shared based on performances, and the international revenue is based on international performances, it ... won't. And the 50+1 rule prevents investment coming in.

As much as people dislike the foreign investment coming in it's meant we've had great league campaigns to watch, and there's stakes at the top and bottom of the top flight nearly every year. Promotion and relegation to and from the top flight actually mean something and the amount of money coming in allows even the worst teams in the Premier league to be competitive and have good players.

The Bundesliga has the highest fan attendance as it's catered towards the attending fan experience. The premier league has the highest revenue, and is watched by the most people around the world because it caters to that market better.

It's nice to have choice. The biggest thing I care about is that the games matter. So for me, German football has little interest. There is no dream there.

Also

 

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48 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

When Uli Hoeness, Chief Something or Other at Bayern said that season tickets were cheap because of other revenues and therefore they didn’t need to take advantage of the fans, you got a sense that German football has its head screwed on.

Also worth bearing in mind is that their season ticket includes free travel on public transport for 3 hours pre and post match, regardless of distance from the ground, i.e. throughout Bavaria.

Of personal interest to you, no doubt, I also understand that disabled tickets - not sure about carers - are extremely cheap.

One problem, though, and I know this from a nephew of mine who lives in Munich and supports Bayern, is that season tickets are extremely hard to obtain, staying in the family for years: with home matches invariably sold out well in advance, I understand it is very difficult to actually get a ticket to watch a Bayern home match.    

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2 hours ago, Prinny said:

No doubt the Bundesliga is a better experience for the attending fan.... it's cheaper, you can drink, stand up, etc etc Unless, you actually want competitive football.

Here's a list of champions from the 2012-13 season on.

Bayern Munich

...

Want to know who's top this year? I'll give you one guess!

So how is this going to change? Well as the T.V revenue money is shared based on performances, and the international revenue is based on international performances, it ... won't. And the 50+1 rule prevents investment coming in.

As much as people dislike the foreign investment coming in it's meant we've had great league campaigns to watch, and there's stakes at the top and bottom of the top flight nearly every year. Promotion and relegation to and from the top flight actually mean something and the amount of money coming in allows even the worst teams in the Premier league to be competitive and have good players.

The Bundesliga has the highest fan attendance as it's catered towards the attending fan experience. The premier league has the highest revenue, and is watched by the most people around the world because it caters to that market better.

It's nice to have choice. The biggest thing I care about is that the games matter. So for me, German football has little interest. There is no dream there.

Also

 

I'm not so sure Bayern will win the title this year- looks like a 3 horse race atm, if and when it resumes again. That could be tricky.

Also there have been landslide Bayern wins...but also quite competitive races. As in Italy, see Juventus win x years in a row but that overlooks competitive races a number of those seasons.

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16 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

Demonstrates the immense cultural difference. Football is a social construct so it reflects the conditions of the society in which its played. If you have a problem with the game in the UK, then you have a problem with society in the UK. In my opinion, everyone should. 

Yeah Germany is a paradise thanks to Merkel isn't it.

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53 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Yeah Germany is a paradise thanks to Merkel isn't it.

Cool strawman bro. 

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19 hours ago, Prinny said:

No doubt the Bundesliga is a better experience for the attending fan.... it's cheaper, you can drink, stand up, etc etc

The Bundesliga has the highest fan attendance as it's catered towards the attending fan experience.

In this country we know the Champions will be from the North West

Portugal and Spain, two horse races. France & Scotland - who can catch PSG & Celtic?

Therefore let's go for atmosphere and have an enjoyable Saturday afternoon rather than sitting in neat rows and applauding politely at the end.

image.jpeg.10f13eb968dded8a80aac2df8321c7ae.jpeg

Image result for munich football fans

Image result for hamburg football fans

 

 

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2 hours ago, 22A said:

In this country we know the Champions will be from the North West

Portugal and Spain, two horse races. France & Scotland - who can catch PSG & Celtic?

Therefore let's go for atmosphere and have an enjoyable Saturday afternoon rather than sitting in neat rows and applauding politely at the end.

image.jpeg.10f13eb968dded8a80aac2df8321c7ae.jpeg

Image result for munich football fans

Image result for hamburg football fans

 

 

Didn't realise Leicester and London were in the North West... Things change in English football. In Germany the rich stay rich and Bayern win.

Sure you can talk about individual seasons, but there's a wider point about the fluidity of who can challenge in England compared to a lot of other countries. Especially those with prohibitive investment rules or individual TV rights deals.

If you're more into community singalongs cool, I want to watch sport with stakes. Especially on TV where you're not part of the atmosphere. Sitting in rows and neatly applauding and all holding your scarves up at the same time and dressing the same and waving flags is the same to me. It's dull. Give me the excitement from an unexpected result or goal, the natural emotion rather than organisational cheering.

I'm here more for the sport than the community. Different strokes. It's not a my viewpoint is better thing, just a difference on what people want from sport.

 

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1 hour ago, Prinny said:

Didn't realise Leicester and London were in the North West... Things change in English football. In Germany the rich stay rich and Bayern win.

Sure you can talk about individual seasons, but there's a wider point about the fluidity of who can challenge in England compared to a lot of other countries. Especially those with prohibitive investment rules or individual TV rights deals.

If you're more into community singalongs cool, I want to watch sport with stakes. Especially on TV where you're not part of the atmosphere. Sitting in rows and neatly applauding and all holding your scarves up at the same time and dressing the same and waving flags is the same to me. It's dull. Give me the excitement from an unexpected result or goal, the natural emotion rather than organisational cheering.

I'm here more for the sport than the community. Different strokes. It's not a my viewpoint is better thing, just a difference on what people want from sport.

 

Tbf to him his geography may not be the best but they are all north of Bristol so he’s half right

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On 06/05/2020 at 21:50, Prinny said:

No doubt the Bundesliga is a better experience for the attending fan.... it's cheaper, you can drink, stand up, etc etc Unless, you actually want competitive football.

Here's a list of champions from the 2012-13 season on.

Bayern Munich

...

Want to know who's top this year? I'll give you one guess!

So how is this going to change? Well as the T.V revenue money is shared based on performances, and the international revenue is based on international performances, it ... won't. And the 50+1 rule prevents investment coming in.

As much as people dislike the foreign investment coming in it's meant we've had great league campaigns to watch, and there's stakes at the top and bottom of the top flight nearly every year. Promotion and relegation to and from the top flight actually mean something and the amount of money coming in allows even the worst teams in the Premier league to be competitive and have good players.

The Bundesliga has the highest fan attendance as it's catered towards the attending fan experience. The premier league has the highest revenue, and is watched by the most people around the world because it caters to that market better.

It's nice to have choice. The biggest thing I care about is that the games matter. So for me, German football has little interest. There is no dream there.

Also

 

Five different teams have won the German League this century, exactly the same as the amount who have won the Premier League, so I don’t understand your point! 

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50 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Five different teams have won the German League this century, exactly the same as the amount who have won the Premier League, so I don’t understand your point! 

4 clubs have won the premier league since Munich last didn’t win the Bundesliga,that’s the point he’s getting at,of course you can go back as far as you want to make a arguement but the Bundesliga at the moment is the most uncompetitive league in Europe(apart from Scotland of course)

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I think arguing over the competitiveness of these respective top flights is really splitting hairs and isn't too far apart from debating the difference between blondes or brunettes. You can make an argument for both, and people have done so very well above (as in, the football leagues not blondes and brunettes).

What can't be disputed is the German fan experience being several levels beyond anything we can even wish for in terms of its pricing and atmosphere, let alone its beer and terracing. Fan experience is absolutely EVERYTHING to me - if I want to watch great football then it's easy enough to watch that on TV. Fan experience on the other hand is the priceless Factor X that makes watching the sport in the flesh the addictive pastime that it is. The Germans have it nailed. England on the other hand has lost it. So for me, given the choice of England or Germany for football it's an absolute no-brainer. 

 

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21 hours ago, joe jordans teeth said:

4 clubs have won the premier league since Munich last didn’t win the Bundesliga,that’s the point he’s getting at,of course you can go back as far as you want to make a arguement but the Bundesliga at the moment is the most uncompetitive league in Europe(apart from Scotland of course)

The English game has been dominated in the past by single teams, go back to when Liverpool dominated, then Man Utd did it. 

You can predict the winners in all the top leagues in the world, and you would be correct more times than wrong,  that’s just the way it is. 

As for uncompetitive leagues, surely this season’s Premier League must win it!! 

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32 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

The English game has been dominated in the past by single teams, go back to when Liverpool dominated, then Man Utd did it. 

You can predict the winners in all the top leagues in the world, and you would be correct more times than wrong,  that’s just the way it is. 

As for uncompetitive leagues, surely this season’s Premier League must win it!! 

Hence I said how far in history do you want to go back,can you pick the next season prem winners because I can sure as hell tell you Munich PSG and Celtic are nailed on in their respective countries 

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4 hours ago, poland_exile said:

I think arguing over the competitiveness of these respective top flights is really splitting hairs and isn't too far apart from debating the difference between blondes or brunettes. You can make an argument for both, and people have done so very well above (as in, the football leagues not blondes and brunettes).

What can't be disputed is the German fan experience being several levels beyond anything we can even wish for in terms of its pricing and atmosphere, let alone its beer and terracing. Fan experience is absolutely EVERYTHING to me - if I want to watch great football then it's easy enough to watch that on TV. Fan experience on the other hand is the priceless Factor X that makes watching the sport in the flesh the addictive pastime that it is. The Germans have it nailed. England on the other hand has lost it. So for me, given the choice of England or Germany for football it's an absolute no-brainer. 

 

So right tbf but it’s all about results in this country,if German fans had to put up with how city have played over the last 2 years they wouldn’t stand for it but all we hear is we are improving 

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33 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Hence I said how far in history do you want to go back,can you pick the next season prem winners because I can sure as hell tell you Munich PSG and Celtic are nailed on in their respective countries 

Liverpool will clearly win the Premier League, the German League is far from over, looking at their table. 

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5 hours ago, poland_exile said:

I think arguing over the competitiveness of these respective top flights is really splitting hairs and isn't too far apart from debating the difference between blondes or brunettes. You can make an argument for both, and people have done so very well above (as in, the football leagues not blondes and brunettes).

What can't be disputed is the German fan experience being several levels beyond anything we can even wish for in terms of its pricing and atmosphere, let alone its beer and terracing. Fan experience is absolutely EVERYTHING to me - if I want to watch great football then it's easy enough to watch that on TV. Fan experience on the other hand is the priceless Factor X that makes watching the sport in the flesh the addictive pastime that it is. The Germans have it nailed. England on the other hand has lost it. So for me, given the choice of England or Germany for football it's an absolute no-brainer. 

 

So this is my point, if you want fan experience Germany is better.

I don't care too much about fan experience, I'm more into the competition, that's my "priceless Factor X", so for me English football is better.

33 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Hence I said how far in history do you want to go back,can you pick the next season prem winners because I can sure as hell tell you Munich PSG and Celtic are nailed on in their respective countries 

Agree completely.

3 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Liverpool will clearly win the Premier League, the German League is far from over, looking at their table. 

Right. you're getting very lost in the weeds here with random time frames. My definition of being competitively healthy is having different teams dominating and having the potential to dominate. Yes you're going to have individual seasons where it's not a good league, but English football is more volatile and therefore more interesting to me. It does not change in Germany. It does not historically. Since the national championship started, Bayern have won it half the time, literally 28 times of 56, the next team have 5. And because the way the league is structured, that pattern won't change IMO.

If your definition of being the leagues being competitive is this seasons league being closer in Germany, ok, I'm not going to dispute that. We can look at the tables. You're right, but you need to agree on the definitions not change them or we don't get anywhere with a discussion.

I'm looking at the combination of historical trends, the rules of the league and recent history to judge the overall competitiveness of the two when judging the overall health of the competition and my ability to be interested in it.

Who do you think will win the Premier League the next ten years? I have no idea, because it changes, and an investor can come in and flip the board.That's exciting to me.

Who do you think will win the Bundesliga the next ten years? 5/10 at least will be Bayern. At least, if we look at the way things are right now. That's boring to me.

So for me to be invested emotionally in a league, and pay money for for it (too much money, for not a wonderful fan experience) I want the overall volatility and potential for change which English football has and German football does not.

Disagreeing is fine, having your own definitions is fine, those are mine and the reasons behind why I think the way I think.

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The title I used for the thread was possibly a little misleading. Main point I was trying to make was the massive disparity in the competence of the organisation of football in the 2 countries. We're still pissing about arguing because there is no leadership whereas they're about to start in Germany.  

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9 minutes ago, The Bard said:

The title I used for the thread was possibly a little misleading. Main point I was trying to make was the massive disparity in the competence of the organisation of football in the 2 countries. We're still pissing about arguing because there is no leadership whereas they're about to start in Germany.  

It's not really about governance though (although I agree) 

It's about safety and its not safe to resume here, yet. 

Is it safe enough in Germany yet..? I don't know. I hope so, or there are going to be some very serious questions asked about why the hell they've rushed back and endangered lives. 

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Of course it is safe there and will be here too.

It's clear that the countries that invested in testing are the ones going back to normal earliest and with the lowest casualties. It's just a matter of testing and isolating, It's really that simple.  

 

City are a decently run club who seem to have worked out early how this was likely to pan out. The upper echelons of the game here seem clueless -palpably nobody is actually in charge. Just a load of competing interests bickering via the media. 

 

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