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IGNORED

Bit harsh isn't it.


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6 minutes ago, pogue malone said:

6 game ban and £2000 fine for calling a guy a pokey, think that's a bit harsh! 

Why should a racial slur towards an Irish person be treated less severely than any other racial slur?

1 minute ago, Seneca the Younger said:

I love threads without context or even a link

https://www.google.com/amp/s/punditarena.com/football/oisinmcqueirns2758/grimsby-elliot-whitehouse-abuse-irish-midfielder-1/amp/

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4 minutes ago, pogue malone said:

Heat of the moment banter, nothing else

 

No it wasn't. 

The Irish player reacted to it and asked what was said.

It was then repeated. 

 

Don't make excuses for racial abuse.

 

 

Maybe try going up to a black person and saying "Shut up n-----" and see if they accept that as banter.

Edited by JamesBCFC
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14 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

No it wasn't. 

The Irish player reacted to it and asked what was said.

It was then repeated. 

 

Don't make excuses for racial abuse.

 

 

Maybe try going up to a black person and saying "Shut up n-----" and see if they accept that as banter.

I honestly think the world would be a better place if everyone refrained from stating their opinions on how offensive a racial slur is unless it had ever been screamed at them in anger because, until and unless that happens, you can be pretty certain they won't know the answer. 

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Just out of interest is the annual dogs' abuse given to teams and fans from South Wales racial abuse?

Similarly, when others are describing us as yokels should we be offended and complain?

People seem happy to take offence these days. Personally, am a little bored with it all, although there are obvious examples that are over the line.

Question is therefore: where should we draw the line?

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18 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I honestly think the world would be a better place if everyone refrained from stating their opinions on how offensive a racial slur is unless it had ever been screamed at them in anger because, until and unless that happens, you can be pretty certain they won't know the answer. 

The player it was said to reacted with "what the **** did you say?" And it got reported to the referee.

A post on the Northampton forum says McCormack chased down the referee.

 

I'd suggest he wasnt too happy about being called it.

 

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3 minutes ago, Calculus said:

Just out of interest is the annual dogs' abuse given to teams and fans from South Wales racial abuse?

Similarly, when others are describing us as yokels should we be offended and complain?

People seem happy to take offence these days. Personally, am a little bored with it all, although there are obvious examples that are over the line.

Question is therefore: where should we draw the line?

It's xenophobic not racist. 

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7 minutes ago, Calculus said:

Just out of interest is the annual dogs' abuse given to teams and fans from South Wales racial abuse?

Similarly, when others are describing us as yokels should we be offended and complain?

People seem happy to take offence these days. Personally, am a little bored with it all, although there are obvious examples that are over the line.

Question is therefore: where should we draw the line?

You are comparing two different things.

I used to wind up a French mate with some jokes based on stereotypes and he'd do the same.

The critical thing is tone and context.

 

The same applies to terrace chants, for the most part.

 

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12 minutes ago, Calculus said:

Just out of interest is the annual dogs' abuse given to teams and fans from South Wales racial abuse?

Similarly, when others are describing us as yokels should we be offended and complain?

People seem happy to take offence these days. Personally, am a little bored with it all, although there are obvious examples that are over the line.

Question is therefore: where should we draw the line?

Answer: in the sand.

the tide will come in and we can then draw the line again

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2 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

The critical thing is tone and context

Spot on I know Irish travellers that refer to each other as Pikeys and a mate from Pakistan who refers to himself as a Paki...

I wouldn't call them either names but others do 

BUT in this instance it was said in an aggressive tone and it reads like the guy is an Irish traveller 

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4 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

You are comparing two different things.

I used to wind up a French mate with some jokes based on stereotypes and he'd do the same.

The critical thing is tone and context.

 

The same applies to terrace chants, for the most part.

 

I know what you mean but I'm not entirely sure that the tone with which we greet Cardiff and their supporters could be described as friendly banter. The whole area seems confusing and full of contradictions and anomalies. I guess folk shouldn't say things designed to upset or offend. All good if it can happen, but sadly I don't see it happening in football.

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31 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

The player it was said to reacted with "what the **** did you say?" And it got reported to the referee.

A post on the Northampton forum says McCormack chased down the referee.

 

I'd suggest he wasnt too happy about being called it.

 

I agree completely. I wasn't disagreeing with you - I was pointing out that it's very easy to sit around dispassionately saying "Pikey" or other slurs aren't offensive if nobody's ever screamed that you in anger. But, if you've never been in that situation, you're just not in a position to judge. As you say, the player was unquestionably upset by it and I think it's hard for anyone whose never had that slur screamed at them to say he was wrong to find it upsetting. 

Edited by LondonBristolian
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8 minutes ago, phantom said:

Spot on I know Irish travellers that refer to each other as Pikeys and a mate from Pakistan who refers to himself as a Paki...

I wouldn't call them either names but others do 

BUT in this instance it was said in an aggressive tone and it reads like the guy is an Irish traveller 

This is it. There are things people self-deprecatingly call themselves or people joke about with their mates that are completely different if it is an aggressive stranger doing it. 

Edited by LondonBristolian
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8 minutes ago, Calculus said:

I know what you mean but I'm not entirely sure that the tone with which we greet Cardiff and their supporters could be described as friendly banter. The whole area seems confusing and full of contradictions and anomalies. I guess folk shouldn't say things designed to upset or offend. All good if it can happen, but sadly I don't see it happening in football.

Cardiff get a lot of the same chants we use by fans of all the other English clubs.

 

The only venom in it is between us and Cardiff, and that's because of the proximity/rivalry.

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4 hours ago, Calculus said:

Just out of interest is the annual dogs' abuse given to teams and fans from South Wales racial abuse?

Similarly, when others are describing us as yokels should we be offended and complain?

People seem happy to take offence these days. Personally, am a little bored with it all, although there are obvious examples that are over the line.

Question is therefore: where should we draw the line?

Would you have found Snatch less believable if it involved a sheep-molester from Chepstow? There's nonsense stereotypes and then there's wild racial exaggerations, if that's even the word, like the songs you used to get in the away end at Midlands clubs. The line's quite easy to spot between those two imo.

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10 hours ago, RonWalker said:

The line's quite easy to spot between those two imo.

I don't think many know where the line is when it comes to certain comments, if they did and it was so straightforward there wouldn't be a divide in opinion on some of them. 

Was Danny Bakers tweet racist in the context it was sent (seeing as he has used the same imagery previously)? Personally I think it wasn't due to his previous stuff, but it was definitely stupid.

Was Bernardo Silvas tweet racist when it was sent to a black friend who laughed about it himself? None of them thought it was, yet many got offended by it and he even got banned didn't he?

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24 minutes ago, wood_red said:

I don't think many know where the line is when it comes to certain comments, if they did and it was so straightforward there wouldn't be a divide in opinion on some of them. 

Was Danny Bakers tweet racist in the context it was sent (seeing as he has used the same imagery previously)? Personally I think it wasn't due to his previous stuff, but it was definitely stupid.

Was Bernardo Silvas tweet racist when it was sent to a black friend who laughed about it himself? None of them thought it was, yet many got offended by it and he even got banned didn't he?

I honestly don't think it is as confusing as many people make out. It simply comes down to the intended audience.  If you are shouting a racial slur at an opponent in a football match, you are clearly doing it to upset and intimidate them and throw them off their game and provoke a reaction. There would be no reason do so otherwise. So it's a bit weak and implausible for anyone to then turn around and say it was "banter" or not supposed to cause offence causing offence is literally the object of the exercise.

A lot of the rest of the time, it's about the context of the intended and the actual audience. I've got friends who I'd happily take the piss out of and who'd happily take the piss out of me when we're amongst ourselves but it would feel completely different if they or I made the same joke in front of a group of strangers. Furthermore, when you've got that group of strangers there, then those people will have their own feelings and reactions.

If someone posts something on social media, it is completely different to sending a text amongst friends and people need to remember that wider audience is there.

For anyone who knew Danny Baker's previous posts, Danny Baker clearly wasn't being racist in using a photo of a monkey and claiming it was Harry and Meghan's child. For anyone who didn't know that,  especially someone black or mixed race who had been subjected to monkey chants or bananas thrown about them, it had a completely different context. Danny Baker was in the wrong for not appreciating that wider audience was out there. I personally think sacking him was harsh but I he was clearly in the wrong to not realise he was posting on a public forum and that a wider audience would read what he wrote.

Similarly with Bernardo Silva and Bernard Mendy, it would have been completely different if Silva had sent the same image directly to Mendy or a few close friends but, as soon as he posted it to a wider audience where people would see it who were not in on the joke but had grown up with a lifetime of people like them being drawn in cartoons as a crude offensive stereotype, it clearly had a completely different meaning.

At the same time, I think a lot of the issue isn't the actual post but the fact that far too people seem able to immediately say "yes, that was stupid. I didn't think that what I was doing would upset people and I'm sorry". Instead they double down and try to justify themselves, cause even more offence and then we end up with a social media outrage war where people who were upset get more upset than they were before and then people who are upset with the people who are upset come in and say far more offensive things than the original comment and it all escalates in something it needn't become.

Ultimately it is important for people try to remember that other people have different lives and experiences to them and things that you might not personally find upsetting can trigger strong reactions in other people. And it ought to be possible for people to say "yes, I made a mistake" but far too often instead people try to blame others for getting upset. And that's not a political thought or activity - it's simply someone failing to take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions. 

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I agree with that and I think many say things in jest amongst mates that they wouldn't say out loud, but the point is people will still (and always) say Danny Baker is a racist and Silvas tweet was racist (not misguided or stupid, but just racist), which they clearly weren't. Pep even said afterwards that the cartoon looked like Mendy in a presser - why didn't he get pulled in by the FA?

Ps - it is obvious the player who got charged wasn't giving out a bit of banter, so I am certainly not saying or trying to imply that.

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I do find it bonkers that every time a footballer gets charged/banned/fine for abusing another player (however you want to categorise that abuse) a lengthy thread ensues on OTIB about what is and isn't offensive. The only word we're still missing, as far as I can tell, is "snowflake".

It doesn't say much for us/society, does it? Can't we all just agree we should probably be less unpleasant to each other?

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2 hours ago, The Journalist said:

I do find it bonkers that every time a footballer gets charged/banned/fine for abusing another player (however you want to categorise that abuse) a lengthy thread ensues on OTIB about what is and isn't offensive. The only word we're still missing, as far as I can tell, is "snowflake".

It doesn't say much for us/society, does it? Can't we all just agree we should probably be less unpleasant to each other?

Wheres the fun in that?

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If he was find for being offensive, I think that would make more sense. 

Either your acting in a reprehensible manner, or you’re not. It’s largely irrelevant the words you use.

if you call someone a Pikey in an aggressive manner, then it’s the act itself that should be abhorrent and should be punished.

Criminalizing words in themselves is a dangerous route to go down.

You end up losing all sense of context and tone. 

 

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2 hours ago, The Journalist said:

I do find it bonkers that every time a footballer gets charged/banned/fine for abusing another player (however you want to categorise that abuse) a lengthy thread ensues on OTIB about what is and isn't offensive. The only word we're still missing, as far as I can tell, is "snowflake".

It doesn't say much for us/society, does it? Can't we all just agree we should probably be less unpleasant to each other?

Absolutely.

I could make someone cry without using a single ‘swear word’, doesn’t make it right or nice.

To emphasis your point whether, the punishment shouldn’t be worse or less because he used the word Pikey.

Either he’s being aggressive and acting in an unacceptable manner, or he’s not.

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7 hours ago, wood_red said:

I don't think many know where the line is when it comes to certain comments, if they did and it was so straightforward there wouldn't be a divide in opinion on some of them. 

Was Danny Bakers tweet racist in the context it was sent (seeing as he has used the same imagery previously)? Personally I think it wasn't due to his previous stuff, but it was definitely stupid.

Was Bernardo Silvas tweet racist when it was sent to a black friend who laughed about it himself? None of them thought it was, yet many got offended by it and he even got banned didn't he?

Yeah certain comments are a bit of a grey area definitely, but intentionally taking the piss out of someone based on their heritage, without the context of banter between mates, definitely isn't!

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