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8 hours ago, The Humble Realist said:

The club will offer options of which one will be a full refund for this season 

 

There will be uproar if not and you cant go round paying Kalas 20k a week and not give fans the OPTION of a full refund at a time like this where the money could.make a big difference to peoples pockets . 

 

Next season is a different question though as is still unknown

 

Sorry, let me get this right... you think there should be a full refund for this season (19/20) even though there’s only a handful of games left?
 

I understand people wanting a partial refund but a full refund is bonkers. We’ve had the majority of games! It’s not the clubs fault all this has happened.

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6 hours ago, Lord Northski said:

The government aren’t going to refund us, so it’s down to us to take this one on the chin or take one for the team. Yes we’ll be able to watch it on our screens at home, and yes it’ll be a bit crap, but in reality us all sharing equal amounts of pain is probably fair, albeit not perfect. 

Take it on the chin? Where have I heard that one before?

Seriously, though, I think the club should offer fans a refund for the missed games. It should then be up to individual fans whether to accept or decline this refund, as some will really need the cash and some won't.  

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48 minutes ago, Robin Goch said:

Sorry, let me get this right... you think there should be a full refund for this season (19/20) even though there’s only a handful of games left?
 

I understand people wanting a partial refund but a full refund is bonkers. We’ve had the majority of games! It’s not the clubs fault all this has happened.

My apologies! I mean a full refund for the remaining games!

The sunshine has clearly got to me !

 

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The club needs to support fans who need the money by offering a refund.

The fans who haven’t been affected financially, need to support the club by declining a refund. 

Support works both ways.

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6 hours ago, Lord Northski said:

Think we all accept that the players wages need to be paid, and Steve Lansdown can’t pay for everything so the money’s going to have to come from somewhere. The government aren’t going to refund us, so it’s down to us to take this one on the chin or take one for the team. Yes we’ll be able to watch it on our screens at home, and yes it’ll be a bit crap, but in reality us all sharing equal amounts of pain is probably fair, albeit not perfect. 

Big shout out to the Lansdown family who will be almost definitely shouldering a disproportionate share of the costs once again. Thank you. 

Sorry not having this

Why should players be paid in full?  You're saying fans should take one for the team so shouldn't the team take one too?  They haven't played in 9 weeks after al. Why not a - say- 20% voluntary cut.

Why can't Lansdown "pay for everything"?  He's the owner, he agreed to sign all these players and set the wage budget. I haven't signed any contracts. I'm a customer in my local far shop and I'm loyal to them but I certainly don't expect to contribute to their business rates or electric bills - even during covid -  My custom is sufficient. Why is football different?

Finally you say the " Lansdown's shoulder a disproportionate share of the costs"  -  they own 100% share of the club so who else is there?  Don't shed too many tears though, if the club get promoted to the PL do you think SL will be "sharing' any of the £100M with the fans-? Of course not , just a hefty ST price increase .

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If we’d treated the club’s staff well through this then I wouldn’t be at all bothered about a refund. However given that:

1. We are owned by one of the richest men in the country.

2. He made use of the furlough scheme.

3. His decision to protect his astronomical wealth in Guernsey means he will personally be insulated from the tax implications of the pandemic.

4. Lower paid staff took a pay cut while players will get all of their salaries in time.

I’ll have my money back, thanks.

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I think you’re right with most of what you said. It’s a crap situation and there’s no perfect way of getting out of this without someone paying for something.

I understand your stance that it’s not going to be you who pays. I understand the players saying they have a contract that says they should be paid (although I’m not impressed at all that there’s been no other gesture on behalf of the players besides agreeing to receive the money a couple of months late) I do understand that you feel sense of entitlement that as a customer you have rights to get exact what you pay for irrespective of the curveball Covid has thrown at us all. And I understand you expect Steve Lansdown to pay for everything. 

I on the other hand don’t expect Steve to pay for everything. He’s not the insurer of last resort, there isn’t one. He’s a fan who’s trying to help the club out where he can and trying to make us sustainable so when he’s not here we won’t go bust two minutes later.

Where we differ is that I’m prepared to contribute towards this, whereas you see yourself as a customer who deserves a full refund. Do I expect anything in return? no, but I’d clearly like to see some gesture of appreciation. Can I afford to lose the money? no not really, but I’d already spent it and I wasn’t getting it back anyway.

 

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Funny how now fans now want to be treated as customers.. 

Wasn't too long ago most (maybe a sweeping generalisation), we're moaning the club were only worried about the business and seeing us as customers. How times change.

Personally I would be happy with an online streaming ticket, if they can facilitate this also having the away games included then that would be an added bonus. But can understand that some people wont be able to take advantage of that situation.

Edited by UREDS_91
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Can't see how PNE's stance can be legal. Customer has paid for something that can't be supplied, refund seems obvious for those not happy with having a TV stream in lieu of attendance.

I'm not overly bothered either way, but can't say the club have done anything to make me feel as if I should owe them anything...they're more than happy to treat fans as walking cash machines when it suits them, so wouldn't blame anyone who wants a bit of their hard earned back.

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18 minutes ago, Lord Northski said:

 

Where we differ is that I’m prepared to contribute towards this, whereas you see yourself as a customer who deserves a full refund. Do I expect anything in return? no, but I’d clearly like to see some gesture of appreciation. Can I afford to lose the money? no not really, but I’d already spent it and I wasn’t getting it back anyway.

 

I respect your POV,  but I'm not sure about the

He’s a fan who’s trying to help the club out

Yes he is a fan, the owner, and underwrites the debts and thanks for that  - but here's the thing.   He wasn't some white knight who came riding in to write of millions of debt and save the club.....as has happened to some clubs. When he joined the board he didn't put much in initially, there wasn't much debt or development of the stadium or investment in players,  he became Chairman and has embarked on journey of his own choosing, he decided to upgrade the manager several times and support them with expensive signings and wages and he decided to build a new stadium/revamp AG along the way.  He also changed the ownership structure and became 100% owner of the club . stadium, land, training ground etc Fair enough he's paid for it - so he owns it, and can set whatever policy he chooses. He doesn't really take much account of fans opinions ( remember FAN was disbanded, AGM',s stopped and he has refused the Supporters Trust's request for a fan rep on the board)  and prefers to run the club his way- again fair enough his money his choice.  You will often hear people saying we have millions of debt without SL we would be broke - but the debts are as result of decisions he has made, not wrong decisions (except for LJ!!)  but decisions he made with the interests of the club at the forefront but expensive decisions nonetheless but one's he has decided he can afford.

I'm not anti SL or jealous or bitter as one poster said, I have no problem with SL and what he's done......................I just don't feel the need to contribute by waiving  a refund due to me, any more than if my next door neighbour buys a new Jaguar on the strap I don't feel the need to contribute to his monthly payments.

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1 hour ago, CodeRed said:

Sorry not having this

Why should players be paid in full?  You're saying fans should take one for the team so shouldn't the team take one too?  They haven't played in 9 weeks after al. Why not a - say- 20% voluntary cut.

Why can't Lansdown "pay for everything"?  He's the owner, he agreed to sign all these players and set the wage budget. I haven't signed any contracts. I'm a customer in my local far shop and I'm loyal to them but I certainly don't expect to contribute to their business rates or electric bills - even during covid -  My custom is sufficient. Why is football different?

Finally you say the " Lansdown's shoulder a disproportionate share of the costs"  -  they own 100% share of the club so who else is there?  Don't shed too many tears though, if the club get promoted to the PL do you think SL will be "sharing' any of the £100M with the fans-? Of course not , just a hefty ST price increase .

You have just given me a fantastic idea. As I said - this season is for me, streaming (home and away) or refund. Nothing else makes sense.

Next year there are so many variables - if the club offered refunds, it has to be in full as they don’t know when/if attendances can restart. As a result people could ask for refunds and then find when games do start up again their cherished ST seat has gone.

So, how about if we did go up, the club gave everyone who’d bought their season ticket for next year the money back for free, while still allowing them in when the season restarted? I’d make that about £6m which would be nothing in the context of prem money. The net “loss” would be offset by allowing people to buy streams on a per game basis, and the PR would be phenomenal. It also means supporters get cash back without risking a seat that for years they’ve sat in and have emotional investment to

Or is that pie in the sky?

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On 30/05/2020 at 19:52, Bar BS3 said:

Kept in what loop..? 

Nothings been confirmed for the rest of this season yet,  let alone next season. 

It won't be long before they'll need to say something, regarding this seasons remaining games, but there's no pressure to announce on next season until August, at the earliest. 

That's why I said An email just informing us what was happening and what if anything would be done about refunds etc. Are you telling me you think that they won't have had something in mind that they've somehow not actually thought about a plan. As I said, I wasn't expecting an answer just a simple acknowledgement just like every other business I have a contract with. It's a simple courtesy.

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Do we actually have published season ticket T&Cs? We are told to refer to them online during the purchasing stories etc but I can’t see them anywhere...

 

edit: found via Bristol sport website!

Edited by tommy_b
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2 hours ago, Robin Goch said:

Sorry, let me get this right... you think there should be a full refund for this season (19/20) even though there’s only a handful of games left?
 

I understand people wanting a partial refund but a full refund is bonkers. We’ve had the majority of games! It’s not the clubs fault all this has happened.

Obviously means a full refund of the remaining games. 

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I can see both sides of the argument here, and whilst I think a lot of people are being harsh in expecting the club to have announced a solution before they were in possession of the decision they (the clubs) have to vote and agree on, a holding statement might not have been a bad idea.

As for refunds for remaining games, I would imagine that WILL be one of the options, however it could be that there are alternatives the club could look at that might allow fans to make a choice from a number of available options.

For example;

If Sky/streaming is an option for the reamining games, and it is better value for fans and the club to take that rather than a refund, some might prefer to accept that instead of a refund.

Could be, the club might say, 'a refund for the remainder of the season is yours if you want it, the alternative is 'or, if you choose not to take a refund and we reach the Premier League in the next 3 years, your first year season ticket in the top flight will be free'.

There are loads of different ways the club could choose to approach this.

Given the money they won't be making on hospitality, food, drink, pay-on-the-day and no change to FFP at the moment, the balance between right/easy/appropriate is going to be a tough call.

And as for the furlough scheme and those disappointed the club have used it, loads of companies and entities have taken advantage, lots of them owned by groups with more cash that SL. Surely it's reassuring that tax-payers are able to have that level of support available to them, than the club deciding that 'looks like there will be nothing for you to do for the next 6 months or so, so many thanks for your efforts and we wish you well in your next job, but there is nothing here for you, so we are letting you go'. 

Where do you draw the line as for what companies can/should be able to use the scheme?

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12 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

No I didnt either. I was merely quoting UK contract law.

Sir Geoff,

 

still thinking about this and if you were merely quoting contract law you still posted it. There are lots of options here where people or purchasers are entitled to get money back if they did not receive what they thought they would get. However Covet 19 is a totally different kettle of fish so too speak. 

It depends on the individuals on how hard up Covert 19 have effected them. Most importantly organisations if they also do not have sufficient capital to pay back will hold off and if pressed and goes to court you will see most probably Covert 19 will excuse companies as any contract that was put in place will take on board the dreadful pandemic and will go in favour of the company and not the individual. 

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9 hours ago, Lord Northski said:

Think we all accept that the players wages need to be paid, and Steve Lansdown can’t pay for everything so the money’s going to have to come from somewhere. The government aren’t going to refund us, so it’s down to us to take this one on the chin or take one for the team. Yes we’ll be able to watch it on our screens at home, and yes it’ll be a bit crap, but in reality us all sharing equal amounts of pain is probably fair, albeit not perfect. 

Big shout out to the Lansdown family who will be almost definitely shouldering a disproportionate share of the costs once again. Thank you. 

So in essence you would be quite happy to pay £100 for a concert ticket, have the concert cancelled but not be too bothered about a refund because the band still need to be paid.

What about BCFC not taking out full insurance to cover a pandemic in which case they could claim back lost revenue. Why should fans shoulder this loss ? As someone said earlier £100 refund is about 2 hrs wages for a player earning £20,000 per week.

Sorry but I want my money back.

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4 minutes ago, City oz said:

Sir Geoff,

 

still thinking about this and if you were merely quoting contract law you still posted it. There are lots of options here where people or purchasers are entitled to get money back if they did not receive what they thought they would get. However Covet 19 is a totally different kettle of fish so too speak. 

It depends on the individuals on how hard up Covert 19 have effected them. Most importantly organisations if they also do not have sufficient capital to pay back will hold off and if pressed and goes to court you will see most probably Covert 19 will excuse companies as any contract that was put in place will take on board the dreadful pandemic and will go in favour of the company and not the individual. 

Then those companies should have taken out pandemic insurance . You can't blame the customer. The law is the law and won't be decided because of a pandemic. Airlines, Holiday companies and numerous others are breaking the law by holding onto refunds.

I have already received refunds from Theatres and cancelled concerts which by law I should receive.

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1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

So in essence you would be quite happy to pay £100 for a concert ticket, have the concert cancelled but not be too bothered about a refund because the band still need to be paid.

What about BCFC not taking out full insurance to cover a pandemic in which case they could claim back lost revenue. Why should fans shoulder this loss ? As someone said earlier £100 refund is about 2 hrs wages for a player earning £20,000 per week.

Sorry but I want my money back.

Sir Geoff,

you have missed the point. How can any one or any organisation take out insurance against a Pandemic.. do you know one that has ??

you can not compare players wages to S/T Costs. 

I think what you are wanting is a refund which you are entitled for. However what has occurred is not normal or the club of BCFC have never experienced before.

so Yu are saying if you dont get your money back or any other viable option you will not be attending Ashton gate next year. Even if we are in the Prem.

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14 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

So in essence you would be quite happy to pay £100 for a concert ticket, have the concert cancelled but not be too bothered about a refund because the band still need to be paid.

What about BCFC not taking out full insurance to cover a pandemic in which case they could claim back lost revenue. Why should fans shoulder this loss ? As someone said earlier £100 refund is about 2 hrs wages for a player earning £20,000 per week.

Sorry but I want my money back.

Guessing you’re not an accountant, but you’re suggesting the club should’ve had pandemic insurance. Whereas Steve Lansdown is an accountant and didn’t take it out. Perhaps you should’ve been the accountant or perhaps you’re just blessed with 20/20 hindsight. Although he’s a billionaire and I’m guessing you’re not. 

I’m sure the club will come up with something that will try to meet the needs and expectations of the majority, although there’s always going to be those who will find something to complain about. My only advice would be to try not to marry one them  

 

 

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I would/will certainly want a refund for games missed, don’t want vouchers, or  streaming of games, if roles where somehow reversed and we owed the club money, they would certainly want, and come after us for the money owed.

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53 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I can see both sides of the argument here, and whilst I think a lot of people are being harsh in expecting the club to have announced a solution before they were in possession of the decision they (the clubs) have to vote and agree on, a holding statement might not have been a bad idea.

As for refunds for remaining games, I would imagine that WILL be one of the options, however it could be that there are alternatives the club could look at that might allow fans to make a choice from a number of available options.

For example;

If Sky/streaming is an option for the reamining games, and it is better value for fans and the club to take that rather than a refund, some might prefer to accept that instead of a refund.

Could be, the club might say, 'a refund for the remainder of the season is yours if you want it, the alternative is 'or, if you choose not to take a refund and we reach the Premier League in the next 3 years, your first year season ticket in the top flight will be free'.

There are loads of different ways the club could choose to approach this.

Given the money they won't be making on hospitality, food, drink, pay-on-the-day and no change to FFP at the moment, the balance between right/easy/appropriate is going to be a tough call.

And as for the furlough scheme and those disappointed the club have used it, loads of companies and entities have taken advantage, lots of them owned by groups with more cash that SL. Surely it's reassuring that tax-payers are able to have that level of support available to them, than the club deciding that 'looks like there will be nothing for you to do for the next 6 months or so, so many thanks for your efforts and we wish you well in your next job, but there is nothing here for you, so we are letting you go'. 

Where do you draw the line as for what companies can/should be able to use the scheme?

All very fair points. 

All companies were entitled to use the Furlough scheme, for qualifying staff members. 

I'd say that a company that loses £20million per year, which wage obligations and no income, are a perfect example of what it's for. Regardless of beliefs on whether those staff are usually over paid. 

People getting funny about tax payers money being used for those who probably pay more tax in a week that most do in a year, is rather ironic, imo. 

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4 minutes ago, mossey said:

I would/will certainly want a refund for games missed, don’t want vouchers, or  streaming of games, if roles where somehow reversed and we owed the club money, they would certainly want, and come after us for the money owed.

No... They have deffered payments from those who owe them money...! 

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For those already moaning about not getting what they've paid for, before they club have had a chance to do anything....

A BBC article from 2017 says that for that weekends games between Burnley and West Brom, the ball was only in play for 160 more than it was out of play. 47 minutes and 40 seconds of football in total.

Would you have requested a 50% refund on that?

(That same season, the game with the most play was Liverpool v Palace with just over 60minutes of play).

If you are playing the 'x' number of games over 90 minutes argument, there you go, a new stat to look at to see just how short-changed you've been!

Maybe you'd be happier with two 30 minute halves with the clock stopped for the duration of every break and infringement? 

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23 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

All very fair points. 

All companies were entitled to use the Furlough scheme, for qualifying staff members. 

I'd say that a company that loses £20million per year, which wage obligations and no income, are a perfect example of what it's for. Regardless of beliefs on whether those staff are usually over paid. 

People getting funny about tax payers money being used for those who probably pay more tax in a week that most do in a year, is rather ironic, imo. 

I’d say a company losing that much each year should be looking at how it’s ran , not getting tax payers money to bail it out. 

Im pretty sure the government isn’t making businesses like Bristol City go that much into debt each year. 

Edited by S25loyal
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8 minutes ago, S25loyal said:

I’d say a company losing that much each year should be looking at how it’s ran , not getting tax payers money to bail it out. 

Im pretty sure the government isn’t making businesses like Bristol City go that much debt each year. 

But the staff who benefit pay tax, and both the employer and employee pay NI.

So why shouldn't they use it?

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I strongly suggest that everyone (even those who maybe could put a good use of the money at their household right now)stay calm about the refunds. It was announced here 3 weeks ago, every fan had to claim it via email and they are able to get it in cash now or transferred it to the fancard and drink/eat it next season.

However now it is announced that all ST holders and those who bought tickets in advance for our next game (this Sunday 07/06) and are under 65 can go to the game. Except those who claimed refund as it can't be reversed... And now they are furious despite it was "absolutely sure" 2 weeks ago that this season will finish behind closed doors....In this case I symphatize with the club as it would be a huge amount of reversed administration and once they decided what they want there are no take backs.

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Some great mental gymnastics here to defend the club at all costs, have to say. 

Are some on commission? :D

Yeah, Steve said to me that he would give me the 20% top money to those furloughed. 

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32 minutes ago, S25loyal said:

I’d say a company losing that much each year should be looking at how it’s ran , not getting tax payers money to bail it out. 

Im pretty sure the government isn’t making businesses like Bristol City go that much into debt each year. 

One thing I will defend the club on is that the Championship is a joke financially. A joke. 

We're in that environment, we also have high overheads. 

Do you read Kieran Maguire and Swiss Ramble? We're one of the better ones financially at this level. Not one of the best as such but one of the better.

Club Operating losses are a good starting point.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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