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Cardiff in trouble?


BCFC11

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Isn't it the same for a lot of clubs at this level though? How many make operating losses- and Covid will only make this worse.

Championship is a great League...but it's a financially disastrous one too!

How many clubs would be bust basically at this level, if their owners didn't step up year in, year out? Appreciate Cash Flow is important part of the equation too!

Impressive thread on Cashflow- albeit in the PL by SwissRamble and seems to be the big 6. Can only imagine how it is at this level!

@Lew-T

Example- also by Swiss Ramble. Look at Stoke- all those PL years and year one of Parachute Payments!

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A key number there is before financing...

Found it- Cardiff's Cash Flow! Also, yet again, by SwissRamble.

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PPS, for Stoke to a point and Cardiff especially, some of the numbers won't quite seem to chime. Basically, that is rounding- in Cardiff's case seems to be rounding to the closest whole number, in Stoke's case the closest decimal point.

According to the Swiss Ramble Analysis, they actually repaid £32m in loans to Tan last season-- but this was replaced by £39m,- if it's Tan paying with one hand and taking back some with the other, not so risky- if it's external though...

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May as well add a small update on this one.

Their most recent Accounts are out ie last season- 2019/20, lost £11m or Operating loss around £23m despite Year 1- ie £30-35m worth- of Parachute Payments. I'll look at them properly sometime in the FFP thread.

Covid will have played a role, as will deferred Income due to it but I do wonder if they could be in a spot of bother.

Says at the bottom that they took out the PAYE Loan- this will if the terms haven't changed be repaid out of Future Solidarity Payments unless it came out of their Parachute Payments. They also used Furlough for non Playing Staff where applicable by the looks- and slated the Government for a lack of support for Football in their Opening notes.

Btw those Parachutes end after 2020/21 season...on EFL Solidarity Money at best provided that they haven't already forfeited some of it in terms of the PAYE Loan Repayment terms.

They slate the Government...I have a better idea.

  1. Don't sign Osei-Tutu, Benkovic and Ojo on loan.
  2. Harry Wilson- Impressive player without doubt but it'll cost! During a Pandemic!?
  3. Maybe keep some of your other players and sign a few less or operate with a smaller squad.

While no big fees and likely lower wages, don't sign up Ng, Williams and Watters in Jan 2021...

....Or sack Harris with the accompanying payoff!

Then ******* plead poverty about it!!

Use Parachutes to pay down debt and cushion the blow during a Pandemic, maybe use it to pay PAYE in order to better protect Revenue Streams for the future or to mitigate the risk at least when during a Pandemic! Sign less players...especially the 4 loanees.

Use it to batten down the hatches, conserve cash and look to exit the other side stronger.

What to make of this note towards the bottom as well.

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9% on £34.8m during a Pandemic!? I mean the Interest Rates are about what you'd expect but ouch- unless it's funding ahead of Parachute Payments and the two cancel out with no problem moving forward.

I would add, Cardiff hierarchy (don't know about the fans tbh), they were one of the more outspoken clubs over the financial chasm between the two divisions...did they mention it between 2013/14 and 2020/21 when either in receipt of PL or Parachute cash? They were quite vocal last Autumn around the time of Project Big Picture...oddly after a slow start to the season and with Parachute Payments due to expire that said same season.

I was looking to look at the Cash Flow Statement but, er- seems that it's only in the Cardiff City Holdings Accounts- Accounts which seem not to be at CH yet.

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Thanks, so a bit like a bridging loan then maybe, in advance of Parachute Payment.

Still though, I stand by a lot of the rest of the post- signing Wilson in particular,but also that many players generally, taking advantage of all the Government support but then compliaing about a lack of help is a nonsense.

Don't think when released, the Cardiff City Holdings Accounts will look great- they appear to have Loans secured against some (Receivable) Transfer Instalments too not that I've looked in depth.

That Sala case is still lurking as well, Provisions for it now £20-21m or thereabouts. Assume that small rise includes interest/legal fees.

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Appears to me that, unless it's Provisions that contain more than one case if found guilty at time Accounts were released is now £20,703,000- up from £19,503,000.

Not altogether sure what to make of it, clearly varied payables and loans will be to Tan and the directors but some big numbers! The Holdings Accounts when out might provide a better picture.

Anyway. ⬇️

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The bit referring to secured on deferred player proceeds, does that mean Cardiff receive the cash up front and repay the proceeds to the company who made the loan as they receive them- ie buying club pays instalment, Cardiff receive, Cardiff pay company- or is it a way of clawing back the cash if payments aren't made as they fall due? Wonder how much they needed promotion to the PL financially before the Parachutes dried up...?

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It's not exactly relevant too the matter in hand but just remember last season that on loan they added:

Osei-Tutu, Benkovic, Ojo and Wilson- all in the Summer/by early October IIRC?

Then in January- sure some players left too, but Ng and Watters- yes reasonably cheap- and then Williams on a free.

Sacked Harris, hired McCarthy- more unforced cost.

While looking to take out an EFL PAYE Loan and further to that, complaining over lack of Government Support in their Accounts etc.

If finances are tight and you're sufficiently fortunate to have Parachute Payments in a pandemic then batten down the hatches! Conserve cash.

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38 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's not exactly relevant too the matter in hand but just remember last season that on loan they added:

Osei-Tutu, Benkovic, Ojo and Wilson- all in the Summer/by early October IIRC?

Then in January- sure some players left too, but Ng and Watters- yes reasonably cheap- and then Williams on a free.

Sacked Harris, hired McCarthy- more unforced cost.

While looking to take out an EFL PAYE Loan and further to that, complaining over lack of Government Support in their Accounts etc.

If finances are tight and you're sufficiently fortunate to have Parachute Payments in a pandemic then batten down the hatches! Conserve cash.

Watters cost £1m, today they loaned him to MK Dons after starting 1 game for them.

They are not only obnoxious but an abysmally run club.

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43 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Watters cost £1m, today they loaned him to MK Dons after starting 1 game for them.

They are not only obnoxious but an abysmally run club.

I don't like them but given our history of signing players and then letting them depart elsewhere having not kicked a ball for us then stones and greenhouses come to mind. 

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1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Watters cost £1m, today they loaned him to MK Dons after starting 1 game for them.

They are not only obnoxious but an abysmally run club.

*Cough* Engvall *Cough* Eisa *Cough* Szmodics *Cough* Walsh *Cough* Moore *Cough*. 

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4 minutes ago, Fuber said:

*Cough* Engvall *Cough* Eisa *Cough* Szmodics *Cough* Walsh *Cough* Moore *Cough*. 

Engvall I’ll grant you but we sold Eisa & Szmodics at a profit.

Moore? He still plays for us & has made around 50 appearances, not 1.

Walsh cost £500k & was here 3 years, not a few months..

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3 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Engvall I’ll grant you but we sold Eisa & Szmodics at a profit.

Moore? He still plays for us & has made around 50 appearances, not 1.

Walsh cost £500k & was here 3 years, not a few months..

1. We also loaned out Eisa and Szmodics having played if even a handful of games. Not dissimilar to Watters.

2. Spent over £1.2m+ on TM, don't see us earning back anywhere that figure insofar.

3. Wasn't Walsh around £800k, rising to £1m with installments if I recall rumours at the time correctly?

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8 hours ago, Fuber said:

1. We also loaned out Eisa and Szmodics having played if even a handful of games. Not dissimilar to Watters.

2. Spent over £1.2m+ on TM, don't see us earning back anywhere that figure insofar.

3. Wasn't Walsh around £800k, rising to £1m with installments if I recall rumours at the time correctly?

Eisa was a little unlucky (coming in under LJ for one), didn't he get injured early on. But agree , never given a chance

Szmodics was really bad (again) by Johnson. Play him through pre season , seemingly doing well, only to sign another player later on and throwing all that pre-season planning out the window.

TM, while not a success , has been here a while and notched up a few games. Probably won't get anywhere near our spend, but at least has been given a chance.

I thought Walsh was nearer £1m. This is one that annoys me. LJ throws him in against Man C, few odd games where he wasn't poor by any stretch but send him on loan. Another case of Johnson getting a new toy, getting bored quickly and putting that one away to look for the next. 

Johnson, Ashton and the previous set up does not look good when you look at recruitment and planning. I really look forward to Pearson getting time to rebuild the infrastructure of the club. We may question some of the recent signings, but he has a plan, I don't see him using the same scattergun approach that Johnson used.

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