Massengo

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, marcofisher said:

I think the point is, why was Walsh allowed to stay on loan at Cov where he was doing well and would have clearly been an upgrade on the options we already have? Would have been able to take the mantle of ball carrier from Brownhill.

A big mistake bringing in Henriksen and not looking at options we already had has cost us really.

Oh, agreed.  We are too hasty in agreeing loans, or even allowing an extension / no recall

Just now, Roger Red Hat said:

Walsh was on a season long loan, I believe.

With a recall option.

Marco - I wrote a post pre-covid where I suggested that if LJ was a great coach, why is the final phase of a player’s development (Walsh, Morrell, etc) given to another team / manager / coaching team to perform.  I get the bit around game time, but both have had enough men’s football to be given the chance to sink or swim.  

[Packman]

1 hour ago, Redpool said:

Do feel for the lad. He won’t progress well in his career with the current coaching staff here to develop him.

 

Just like Webster, Bryan, Reid etc etc.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, paul_fox said:

Where does the talk of Vyner playing midfield come from? I thought he's only played cb and rb for us and on loans? But seen a few mention the dm role for him 

Played for Aberdeen there.  Allegedly played there in Academy, but I remember him being interviewed and saying that when he made his debut at RB, he’d never (rarely?) played there and had always been a CB.

He came on v Saints in DM, and LJ mentioned it in pre-match presser., 

[Elruliri]

It's all about opinions but thought Massengo did ok yesterday. He was a bit late in a couple of challenges, I would put that down to being ring rusty. I also thought the ref could of been more lenient. The kid will be some player and with LW and JM in the wings we have some talent for the future but not for the here and now.

[Midlands Robin]

I've posted this a coupe of times before but I still stand by it. From what I've seen at games and on TV of HNM this season, I like the way he puts himself about in midfield and is capable of breaking up play and getting stuck in. This for an 18 year old in the championship is impressive given that a lot of our younger players are sent on loan to gain the experience required to mix it with bigger and older players. He's not afraid to get stuck in and win balls.

For me, HNM needs to learn how to turn his break up play into attacking play. Winning the ball is one thing but working out how to snap that into a quick attack is something entirely different and what we need to make the most of a high press. He doesn't seem to be able to quickly move the ball forward and turn defence into attack.

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

2 hours ago, Redpool said:

Do feel for the lad. He won’t progress well in his career with the current coaching staff here to develop him.

 

Who will?

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

I've posted this a coupe of times before but I still stand by it. From what I've seen at games and on TV of HNM this season, I like the way he puts himself about in midfield and is capable of breaking up play and getting stuck in. This for an 18 year old in the championship is impressive given that a lot of our younger players are sent on loan to gain the experience required to mix it with bigger and older players. He's not afraid to get stuck in and win balls.

For me, HNM needs to learn how to turn his break up play into attacking play. Winning the ball is one thing but working out how to snap that into a quick attack is something entirely different and what we need to make the most of a high press. He doesn't seem to be able to quickly move the ball forward and turn defence into attack.

Early season he was really good at giving it quickly to Palmer, who on the half turn gave us an exciting dimension.

I loved playing 532/5212 as a player, but I see the limitations of it (and the positives) at Champ level, but boy, the early season 5212 with Brownhill, Massengo and then Palmer in the hole with Afobe and Weimann was the best football we’ve seen all season.

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

4 minutes ago, Elruliri said:

It's all about opinions but thought Massengo did ok yesterday. He was a bit late in a couple of challenges, I would put that down to being ring rusty. I also thought the ref could of been more lenient. The kid will be some player and with LM and JM in the wings we have some talent for the future but not for the here and now.

True about the ref, I think he got the yellow on his first mistake and the ref could have just given him a warning. If he committed a naughty foul before I certainly can't remember it.

[Roger Red Hat]

14 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

True about the ref, I think he got the yellow on his first mistake and the ref could have just given him a warning. If he committed a naughty foul before I certainly can't remember it.

I like HNM, but he had given away 3/4 free kicks prior to the booking. He just looked like he hadn't yet got his timing back, which is understandable. I think he got booked for persistent fouling.

[The Coach]

44 minutes ago, Packman said:

Just like Webster, Bryan, Reid etc etc.

Webster - Already developed and had an injury free season with a very good partner. Was already a decent CB

Bryan - Already developed 

Reid - Lucky half season as was move as a striker due to injuries elsewhere 

etc etc? Who else? There is no one 

27 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

Who will?

No one unfortunately 

[Mr Hankey]

1 hour ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I don't think I was critical of KP unfairly. For me Massengo's effort is unquestionable whereas often KP looks listless. A magical talent on his day but not frequent enough. For me the reason he doesn't start often is that he doesn't perform when he does, and is usually more effective as an impact sub. His languid approach reminds me of JET but without the goal threat. 

That’s actually a fair analysis to be honest. For what it’s worth, i also don’t agree with the criticism some have levelled at Massengo, people are quick to forget he’s an 18 year old playing his first season away from home, plenty more to come from him as long as he’s given time to improve.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Prinny said:

I just utterly disagree, he was awful yesterday. Yeah he ran around, mainly fouling people, but created nothing, offered nothing.

0 assists 0 goals.

You admit they targeted him, why was that? Because he's weak, and they can see it too.

Compared to which players who played well?

[Fpcity]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Played for Aberdeen there.  Allegedly played there in Academy, but I remember him being interviewed and saying that when he made his debut at RB, he’d never (rarely?) played there and had always been a CB.

He came on v Saints in DM, and LJ mentioned it in pre-match presser., 

How'd he get on at Aberdeen in that role? If he's physically strong and tall then it's worth a try. We don't have anything like that 

[Packman]

23 minutes ago, Redpool said:

Webster - Already developed and had an injury free season with a very good partner. Was already a decent CB

Bryan - Already developed 

Reid - Lucky half season as was move as a striker due to injuries elsewhere 

etc etc? Who else? There is no one 

No one 

So Webster's improvement has nothing to big with the coaching, yeah right. Bryan definitely improved hence move to the prem and Reid is just lucky??? Funny that, every time someone improves and goes for a massive profit it's lucky but if they struggle for a few games it's down to the shit coaching. We get the same old boring quote every time we have a few bad performances. Another few examples off the top of my head is Brownhill, Tammy and Fam is definitely a better player now than when we first got him.

[RedorDead BCFC]

33 minutes ago, Redpool said:

Webster - Already developed and had an injury free season with a very good partner. Was already a decent CB

Bryan - Already developed 

Reid - Lucky half season as was move as a striker due to injuries elsewhere 

etc etc? Who else? There is no one 

No one unfortunately 

Lloyd Kelly?

[Prinny]

7 minutes ago, mozo said:

Compared to which players who played well?

That's not the argument. Saying that other players on our team didn't do well, doesn't say anything about HNM's performance. And that's what we're discussing in this thread.

The comparison is vs the Blackburn players, or vs my subjective understanding of what a good championship midfielder performance is.

[OldlandReddies]

Simply not good enough.

[marcofisher]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

Agree. I thought it was a very harsh assessment of Massengo.

He has had some outstanding games, as well as some poor games.

He's 18, or maybe just turned 19. He's done extremely well.

But then the poor games are often when almost all the rest of our players have been poor too.

If LJ is getting it completely wrong which he has numerous times this season then that will also not help in Massengo's or anyones performance. 

But on a good day Massengo has been so good at the things that you say.

There's this strange obsession in this country with midfielders that score and assist goals.

I think it barely matters in the modern game if a deeper midfielder scores or assists.

It isn't their job to do that. Korey rarely scores or assists a goal. They're too far back to be getting good attacking stats.

 

It’s not purely a goal or assist thing though. Neither of them are players who can move the ball between attack and defence a team at all. 

Having them both in a 2 means that nothing is going to pass through midfield. We end up with hoof ball like yesterday.  

[OldlandReddies]

Smith/Palmer........ C'mon Lee, it's simple. 

[Buster Footman's T shirt]

29 minutes ago, paul_fox said:

How'd he get on at Aberdeen in that role? If he's physically strong and tall then it's worth a try. We don't have anything like that 

Bakinson?

[eardun]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Early season he was really good at giving it quickly to Palmer, who on the half turn gave us an exciting dimension.

I loved playing 532/5212 as a player, but I see the limitations of it (and the positives) at Champ level, but boy, the early season 5212 with Brownhill, Massengo and then Palmer in the hole with Afobe and Weimann was the best football we’ve seen all season.

Need to go back to this formation in my view. Smith, Massengo, Nagy, or even Rowe will be OK as defensive midfielders if they don’t have to worry about the defensive qualities of our wingers. Palmer and Paterson can play the central attacking role behind the front two with more freedom - I’m sure COD and NE could play that role too (the old Freeman role).

[Sarumred]

I’ve said precisely the same in the Nagy thread.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, paul_fox said:

How'd he get on at Aberdeen in that role? If he's physically strong and tall then it's worth a try. We don't have anything like that 

See @JonDolman’s post.  Okay was the general impression.

1 hour ago, Packman said:

So Webster's improvement has nothing to big with the coaching, yeah right. Bryan definitely improved hence move to the prem and Reid is just lucky??? Funny that, every time someone improves and goes for a massive profit it's lucky but if they struggle for a few games it's down to the shit coaching. We get the same old boring quote every time we have a few bad performances. Another few examples off the top of my head is Brownhill, Tammy and Fam is definitely a better player now than when we first got him.

Just gonna throw out a question.  I don’t know the answer, but just keen on opinions:

what is their development was natural progression through experience / growth physically?

The reason I ask it that Reid, Bryan, Brownhill, Webster etc were all early 20s, moving into their peak years.  I’m not saying it’s not LJ’s coaching.

Has a player aged 26+ improved under LJ?

can’t think of one off the top of my head, but happy to be corrected.  Finally....

Which young players have gone backwards (or plateaued) under LJ?

If he is a great coach, why have some not progressed.

Just thought it was an interesting set of questions rather than just go with the “look at Reid, Bryan, etc, he must be a good coach”.

What do you think?

 

1 hour ago, paul_fox said:

How'd he get on at Aberdeen in that role? If he's physically strong and tall then it's worth a try. We don't have anything like that 

See @JonDolman’s post.  Okay was the general impression.

1 hour ago, Packman said:

So Webster's improvement has nothing to big with the coaching, yeah right. Bryan definitely improved hence move to the prem and Reid is just lucky??? Funny that, every time someone improves and goes for a massive profit it's lucky but if they struggle for a few games it's down to the shit coaching. We get the same old boring quote every time we have a few bad performances. Another few examples off the top of my head is Brownhill, Tammy and Fam is definitely a better player now than when we first got him.

Just gonna throw out a question.  I don’t know the answer, but just keen on opinions:

what is their development was natural progression through experience / growth physically?

The reason I ask it that Reid, Bryan, Brownhill, Webster etc were all early 20s, moving into their peak years.  I’m not saying it’s not LJ’s coaching.

Has a player aged 26+ improved under LJ?

can’t think of more than one off the top of my head (Flint), but happy to be corrected.  Finally....

Which young players have gone backwards (or plateaued) under LJ?

If he is a great coach, why have some not progressed.

Just thought it was an interesting set of questions rather than just go with the “look at Reid, Bryan, etc, he must be a good coach”.

What do you think?

 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Williams is the only 26+ player I can think of that might have improved a lot under LJ.  But then there hasn't really been many older players here.

LJ said he coached Williams how to run faster. If that is true then that is some coaching! Only LJ would tell the world he did that 

I think there is also another part to this improving players discussion.

A player like Massengo may have improved a lot as a player during his time with us. In fact I expect he has naturally as well as what he has been coached.

But if he plays worse now than he has in the past that could be down to LJ getting the game plan wrong so often, which he has.

He might have improved, but LJ is getting it so wrong at the moment that his performances may make him look a worse player than he might be.

He maybe goes somewhere else in the summer and shows how good he really is in a better set up. A proper system where players know their roles.

Away at Derby he was fantastic, but every player was fantastic because LJ got it right.

I think it's impossible to answer. How much was it natural progression vs LJ coaching. And has he even declined at all or improved. If LJ had got the team sheet and tactics right would we see an even better Massengo than we saw away at Derby?

 

 

Nice answer Jon.  Not what I expecting, but good angle....ta.

System is such an interesting one, because so often it’s talked about in formation language.  The 4411 system yesterday was poles apart from 4411 in 17/18 for example.

[marcofisher]

2 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

I worry for our future, if people are trying to rip HNM apart. 

Clearly not seen the nuances in his game. Making a nuisance and playing simple balls to keep or gain possession His control, positioning and harrying is usually other worldly

We've been crying out for this type of player since Skuse, really. 

Now, he had a crap game yesterday, sure. Players do that, they aren't robots. 

However the knee jerk is something else. 

Feel sorry for those that watch the game with blinkers on

 

Jesus the irony! 

[marcofisher]

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Thanks for adding to the debate. 

Sorry that I'm also have a very long history on here about being very rarely wrong with players. 

I'll start with Reid, and perhaps try watching rather than willing something to be true as you want a scapegoat 

Skuse was one of the most basic one dimensional players we have had, and was a mainstay in a side frequently flirting with relegation.

Did a decent job at this level doing the simple things well, but I wouldn’t say a player we have been screaming out for years to replace. 

I wouldn’t say scapegoat, anyone who has watched the majority of games this season would agree he has looked slightly out of his depth so far. Nothing wrong with not being up to the level at his age. Has plenty of time to achieve it.

Thinking someone is class purely because they cost a few millions and has come from the Monaco academy is looking at it through rose tinted specs. The stats would also back up what everyone has been suggesting about HNM too. 

Nobody is trying to “rip him apart”, but suggesting that he is currently not of the level for a team supposedly gunning for playoffs. Going on loan such as Walsh and Morrell have done would do him a world of favours, even if for just half a season. 

[RobintheRed Red]

8 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Why has Massengo suddenly become the object of derision on OTIB, with many (who were no doubt lauding him as a major talent bought under the nose of the PL and singing about his hair) now claiming him to be vastly overrated. He's an18 Yr old FFS who has played many more games than expected in his first year. He may not be in form at present but as a midfielder he's miles in front of COD and he always gives everything on the pitch, which is more than can be said about KP45. Let's get off the kids back and give him support. 

Needs a proper coach to bring the best out of him.

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Skuse was one of the most basic one dimensional players we have had, and was a mainstay in a side frequently flirting with relegation.

Did a decent job at this level doing the simple things well, but I wouldn’t say a player we have been screaming out for years to replace. 

I wouldn’t say scapegoat, anyone who has watched the majority of games this season would agree he has looked slightly out of his depth so far. Nothing wrong with not being up to the level at his age. Has plenty of time to achieve it.

Thinking someone is class purely because they cost a few millions and has come from the Monaco academy is looking at it through rose tinted specs. The stats would also back up what everyone has been suggesting about HNM too. 

Nobody is trying to “rip him apart”, but suggesting that he is currently not of the level for a team supposedly gunning for playoffs. Going on loan such as Walsh and Morrell have done would do him a world of favours, even if for just half a season. 

I don’t think he’s looked out if his depth.  He’s had the usual mix of good, average and bad games as most players coming into the club of a younger age.  The fact he is 18, from another country, wasn’t planned to play as much as he has his testament to how well he’s done in context.

Take all of that (you could call them excuses) out of the equation and I think he’s done okay (ok as in decent, as in average), that’s not a negative.

Overall for a side pushing playoffs (stop laughing!) he’s Probably not had enough influence, but there ain’t one other 18 year old in the Championship who’s clocked up anywhere near as many minutes in the centre of midfield.  Bellingham (winger), Bogle and Ferguson (full-backs) have played similar minutes, but not in the middle of the park.

His poor performances have generally been in an overall poor team performance, rather than him stand out as being the only bad player.  There might’ve been one, Luton (a) was it (?) where the run of games seemed to have caught up with him.

But all about opinions.

He certainly wasn’t the worst performer yesterday imho.

[mozo]

34 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Thinking someone is class purely because they cost a few millions and has come from the Monaco academy is looking at it through rose tinted specs. The stats would also back up what everyone has been suggesting about HNM too. 

Stats for what?

[marcofisher]

Just now, mozo said:

Stats for what?

Defensive or offensive contributions per 90. 

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think he’s looked out if his depth.  He’s had the usual mix of good, average and bad games as most players coming into the club of a younger age.  The fact he is 18, from another country, wasn’t planned to play as much as he has his testament to how well he’s done in context.

Take all of that (you could call them excuses) out of the equation and I think he’s done okay (ok as in decent, as in average), that’s not a negative.

Overall for a side pushing playoffs (stop laughing!) he’s Probably not had enough influence, but there ain’t one other 18 year old in the Championship who’s clocked up anywhere near as many minutes in the centre of midfield.  Bellingham (winger), Bogle and Ferguson (full-backs) have played similar minutes, but not in the middle of the park.

His poor performances have generally been in an overall poor team performance, rather than him stand out as being the only bad player.  There might’ve been one, Luton (a) was it (?) where the run of games seemed to have caught up with him.

But all about opinions.

He certainly wasn’t the worst performer yesterday imho.

Fair enough. Can’t say I’ve seen it really. Did okay until teams started targeting him around November or December time (Blackburn and Millwall home games is where I remember it turning) and since then hasn’t really seemed up to the level. As you say, game of opinions after all.