Massengo

[David Brent]

It’s clear he has ability but over the course of the season, bar a few good games, I’d say he has looked out of his depth. Whether that’s LJ not using him wisely or down to the player I don’t know. 
 

Forget the fee, forget who we signed him from. There is no way we should’ve expected an 18 year old to play that much football after moving from France. 
 

But he’s only a kid and will learn a lot from this season. 

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, David Brent said:

It’s clear he has ability but over the course of the season, bar a few good games, I’d say he has looked out of his depth. Whether that’s LJ not using him wisely or down to the player I don’t know. 
 

Forget the fee, forget who we signed him from. There is no way we should’ve expected an 18 year old to play that much football after moving from France. 
 

But he’s only a kid and will learn a lot from this season. 

We didn’t.  But we sold Pack, replaced him with Nagy who got injured in his second game and he was thrust into the first team,  I’m sure Rowe woukd e got first dibs, but Dasilva got injured meaning he had to play LWB.

Hes had no time to adjust to:

• the country and environment 
• the Championship
• his teammates
• etc

The plan was to introduce him from the bench gradually, but make sure he was regularly involved....rather than loan him out.

if you ignore the above I reckon he’s just about held his own, maybe not quite what we needed to challenge playoffs.

If you take all of that into consideration, he’s done pretty well.

As an 18 year old, he’s gonna be:

• inconsistent (many of our players still are at 24-29 years of age naming no names)
• struggle with the workload of matches and training, the effects on his developing body (we can see he’s bulked up in his time if) at the same time
• opponents targeting him, Brownhill protected him a bit (fair play)

I think it’s massively unfair to call him out, he’s not been anywhere near as bad as some others, and blame should be apportioned to the club for leaving us exposed by having to play him so much.

He didn’t cost much more than Moore, Brownhill, Eliasson and O’Dowda, if you think about transfer fee inflation, he probably cost less in real terms (appreciate potential for significant add-ons).  Those guys were all given time, inc having a pre-season to bed in too.

[David Brent]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We didn’t.  But we sold Pack, replaced him with Nagy who got injured in his second game and he was thrust into the first team,  I’m sure Rowe woukd e got first dibs, but Dasilva got injured meaning he had to play LWB.

Hes had no time to adjust to:

• the country and environment 
• the Championship
• his teammates
• etc

The plan was to introduce him from the bench gradually, but make sure he was regularly involved....rather than loan him out.

if you ignore the above I reckon he’s just about held his own, maybe not quite what we needed to challenge playoffs.

If you take all of that into consideration, he’s done pretty well.

As an 18 year old, he’s gonna be:

• inconsistent (many of our players still are at 24-29 years of age naming no names)
• struggle with the workload of matches and training, the effects on his developing body (we can see he’s bulked up in his time if) at the same time
• opponents targeting him, Brownhill protected him a bit (fair play)

I think it’s massively unfair to call him out, he’s not been anywhere near as bad as some others, and blame should be apportioned to the club for leaving us exposed by having to play him so much.

He didn’t cost much more than Moore, Brownhill, Eliasson and O’Dowda, if you think about transfer fee inflation, he probably cost less in real terms (appreciate potential for significant add-ons).  Those guys were all given time, inc having a pre-season to bed in too.

I’m sure LJ had more of a plan to ease him in gradually, as you say. I think it’s the fans who were expecting him to play most weeks.

And as I said he’ll learn a lot from this season, more than most, but there’s been several games where he’s looked lost this season. Blackburn at home for example. 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, David Brent said:

I’m sure LJ had more of a plan to ease him in gradually, as you say. I think it’s the fans who were expecting him to play most weeks.

And as I said he’ll learn a lot from this season, more than most, but there’s been several games where he’s looked lost this season. Blackburn at home for example. 

Yes, kinda what you expect from any young player.  Some of those poor games have typically been when the whole team have been poor too.  I don’t think he’s had more than a couple where he’s been standout bad.

[hertsexile]

The lad is a real talent just a little raw at the moment. 
Like any young player he needs time. Role on next season with Walsh, Morrell and Han Noah in midfield with Kasey playing  behind a front 2 

[Sixtyseconds]

I would like to see City use a formation that could become a quiz question.

Massengo would be in it,

The formation that is evil.

LJ dare not play it.

4-3-3.

[marcofisher]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

We didn’t.  But we sold Pack, replaced him with Nagy who got injured in his second game and he was thrust into the first team,  I’m sure Rowe woukd e got first dibs, but Dasilva got injured meaning he had to play LWB.

Hes had no time to adjust to:

• the country and environment 
• the Championship
• his teammates
• etc

The plan was to introduce him from the bench gradually, but make sure he was regularly involved....rather than loan him out.

if you ignore the above I reckon he’s just about held his own, maybe not quite what we needed to challenge playoffs.

If you take all of that into consideration, he’s done pretty well.

As an 18 year old, he’s gonna be:

• inconsistent (many of our players still are at 24-29 years of age naming no names)
• struggle with the workload of matches and training, the effects on his developing body (we can see he’s bulked up in his time if) at the same time
• opponents targeting him, Brownhill protected him a bit (fair play)

I think it’s massively unfair to call him out, he’s not been anywhere near as bad as some others, and blame should be apportioned to the club for leaving us exposed by having to play him so much.

He didn’t cost much more than Moore, Brownhill, Eliasson and O’Dowda, if you think about transfer fee inflation, he probably cost less in real terms (appreciate potential for significant add-ons).  Those guys were all given time, inc having a pre-season to bed in too.

Believe you me, the criticism of Massengo by most reasonable posters on here is echoed all the more at LJ for letting this happen in the first place. 

He has been poor. But he should have been in the position where if he was poor he could be taken out. Or not be playing such a big role. Those, saying he is not quite up to it yet, such as myself, apportion the blame to LJ, not to HNM.

That is not being unfair by calling him out, it’s having a justified opinion on it. You will always have critical posters who have no informed views anyway. 

[Lew-T]

2 hours ago, hertsexile said:

The lad is a real talent just a little raw at the moment. 
Like any young player he needs time. Role on next season with Walsh, Morrell and Han Noah in midfield with Kasey playing  behind a front 2 

Those 3 will probably leave us before we get the chance of any real success. Then the Bristol City cycle starts again...

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Believe you me, the criticism of Massengo by most reasonable posters on here is echoed all the more at LJ for letting this happen in the first place. 

He has been poor. But he should have been in the position where if he was poor he could be taken out. Or not be playing such a big role. Those, saying he is not quite up to it yet, such as myself, apportion the blame to LJ, not to HNM.

That is not being unfair by calling him out, it’s having a justified opinion on it. You will always have critical posters who have no informed views anyway. 

I don’t think he has been poor, but I appreciate your angle / view....it’s good to debate these things with different views.

[marcofisher]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think he has been poor, but I appreciate your angle / view....it’s good to debate these things with different views.

For me, when considered this season SL has expected us to be a “top 6” side I think he has.

If he had not said that, and had said we will aim mid table to develop our players, or said nothing at all, I probably would have expected less and not been as frustrated.

There are a lot more levels to it than purely the performances on the pitch really.

Begs the question of our aims next season as well. Is he ready for a team chasing playoffs? Probably not- loan him for some game time. But if that is not our aim and we have a season of building before trying to go up then keep him around and playing absolutely. 

I am the biggest advocate of buying young players and developing them for profit. It’s when there is disjuncture between what is being said are our aims and what is happening on the pitch that frustrates me.

[054123]

Is this really the case?

Due to my sad existence i visit the website regularly and never picked up this ‘tone’. Absolutely he’s criticised at times, so is everybody in the team, however overall the lad gets loads of support with everyone always giving him the benefit of the doubt due to his age and potential etc.

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

For me, when considered this season SL has expected us to be a “top 6” side I think he has.

That’s a valid point too, but he wasn’t expected to start 22 games either.  The expectation would’ve been a few starts here and there and coming off the bench.  This signing wasn’t to improve upon the midfield this season but in future.  But it shows poor planning, that with Smith injured, we sold Pack.  Money seemed great (£4m), but was it really for a player the whole system had been built around?  I’ve debated with @Harry whether Pack played as well in 18/19 as 17/18, but that’s not to say I didn’t rate Pack, nor realise his importance.  It’s why I am reserving judgement on Walsh, because I know how difficult it is in the centre of a Champ midfield.  It took until last season for Brownhill to get to grips with it (having done well at RM the season before), and he’s much older.

If he had not said that, and had said we will aim mid table to develop our players, or said nothing at all, I probably would have expected less and not been as frustrated.

yep, totally get your angle.  But how many of our players have played to the necessary level this season?  Performance wise we have under-performed, I reckon if you looked back at each game we’ve picked up more points undeservedly than lost .  I reckon we are 6-8 points better off than we deserve to be.  We really would be mid-table if we’d got our just-desserts.  There haven’t been many games where I think we’ve been robbed.

There are a lot more levels to it than purely the performances on the pitch really.
Yep. Agreed

Begs the question of our aims next season as well. Is he ready for a team chasing playoffs? Probably not- loan him for some game time. But if that is not our aim and we have a season of building before trying to go up then keep him around and playing absolutely.

he becomes a “club developed” player next season!!  No way would I loan him out.  But next season is a million miles away.  If we do not get to the playoffs I really think we might need a freshening up in the coaching set up.  If LJ is still in charge it will be interesting to see how he shapes the midfield.

I am the biggest advocate of buying young players and developing them for profit. It’s when there is disjuncture between what is being said are our aims and what is happening on the pitch that frustrates me.
Totally. It’s a bit of a “get out of jail free card” if you buy young, but have to sell when they outgrow your club.  You can just hide behind “I had to sell my best players”.

We now have relative financial stability, even in a covid world, we are far better placed than most clubs.

 

[Simon bristol]

50 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

For me, when considered this season SL has expected us to be a “top 6” side I think he has.

If he had not said that, and had said we will aim mid table to develop our players, or said nothing at all, I probably would have expected less and not been as frustrated.

There are a lot more levels to it than purely the performances on the pitch really.

Begs the question of our aims next season as well. Is he ready for a team chasing playoffs? Probably not- loan him for some game time. But if that is not our aim and we have a season of building before trying to go up then keep him around and playing absolutely. 

I am the biggest advocate of buying young players and developing them for profit. It’s when there is disjuncture between what is being said are our aims and what is happening on the pitch that frustrates me.

Agree, The selling of players as soon as they are worth anything is directly at odds with trying to achieve success on the pitch, we have got good at it, but if the 6/7 players weve sold for big money over the last few years were in our squad  for these last 8 games id be more confident about our chances

[Super]

Looks way out of his depth.

[Major Isewater]

On 22/06/2020 at 22:33, ORANGE500 said:

Yes money does talk  if he was remotely as good as you claim one of Europe's top clubs would have offered more, exceptional talents do not sign for Bristol  City our club is important to us but in the grand scheme of football City are a non entity and a top French talent wouldn't be interested the lad is  average at best and we should have played Walsh and Morrell in midfield this season and either loaned him out or left him in monaco

Exceptional talents do sometimes sign for Bristol City , don’t forget we are now respected players in , arguably, the world’s fifth most important division.

The aforementioned ‘ exceptional ‘ talents are rarely, it has to be said , the finished article or without certain flaws in their make up, Tomlin , Jackie for example and Massengo is very young so time yet for the big clubs to  back up their interest with a hard cash offer.

 I feel you are underestimating the lure of English football, Bristol City FC as a dynamic club offering a potential Prem move and the negotiating skills of Mark Ashton.

 I happen to agree with you about Morrell and Walsh . I would have liked to have seen both at City this season but this is probably more on hindsight. We started the season with a Hungarian International and a French wonder kid who has caps at junior level . 
 

Morrell and Walsh have done themselves a power of good during their loan spells and return to the fold as strong candidates for a starting berth in the first team next season.

 

[marcofisher]

10 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Agree, The selling of players as soon as they are worth anything is directly at odds with trying to achieve success on the pitch, we have got good at it, but if the 6/7 players weve sold for big money over the last few years were in our squad  for these last 8 games id be more confident about our chances

I don’t disagree with selling any of the players we sold and I expected it, I would even say it was unavoidable. Every season before we have invested the money well. I think with Massengo, we went too ambitious and underestimated how raw he really was. Henriksen was a massive backfire also. As well as not recalling Walsh or Morrell.

 

 

[Major Isewater]

11 minutes ago, Super said:

Looks way out of his depth.

They all did on Saturday but no way should we be scapegoating the lad. He did more to rattle the Rovers than any other City player.

[Super]

Just now, Major Isewater said:

They all did on Saturday but no way should we be scapegoating the lad. He did more to rattle the Rovers than any other City player.

I agree but this is a thread on Massengo. Not sure constant fouling rattled them. They outclassed our midfield.

[mozo]

23 minutes ago, Super said:

Looks way out of his depth.

He's at the same standard as the rest of them then!

[Cowshed]

11 hours ago, Sixtyseconds said:

I would like to see City use a formation that could become a quiz question.

Massengo would be in it,

The formation that is evil.

LJ dare not play it.

4-3-3.

I would like to see City play this in forms. City have the players. I don't accept Mr Johnsons he can't play in a two etc. That's called coaching and developing. Massengo has the legs and keeps it simple, quick and early. Players in the squad have more creative skills to break lines. The squad is full of youth = busy bees. Playing 4-3-3 will see the team matching up v opposition in centre midfield instead of getting overloaded, invert a full and City overload the opposition. Play 4-3-3 and it creates angles and diamonds and may assist City's poor movement (coaching again) and end to a degree City's plodding U passing that frequently goes nowhere, and bores many fans.    

4-3-3

Link (free) creates images, animations etc  

[BCFCinNW6]

I think the bigger concern with HNM is not him - but a manager that relies so heavily on a 18-19 year old in a central role. 

Our midfield is lightweight, nonthreatening, slow and unconvincing as it is without making it softer with such a young lad playing so regularly. 

And in true City /Johnson form he looks to be getting worse as his talent and flair is dampened by City's pedestrian style of football. 

I kinda feel sorry for him. 

 

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, Super said:

I agree but this is a thread on Massengo. Not sure constant fouling rattled them. They outclassed our midfield.

Because they outnumbered ours.  Our two widemen left Smith and Massengo exposed with and without the ball. The rigidity of the Johnson system (which he calls “intricate”) means players cannot / do not think intuitively.  When the ball is in position A, each player is in their set position.  Fantastic, they are doing what the head-coach has instructed.  Unfortunately any manager worth his salt knows this and can set up to stifle this.  It is why we can no longer play through the thirds.

If you line up our guys against Backburn’s 4231 using @Cowshed pic above (City in black), it’s not hard to see, how a little bit of endeavour by Brereton (who was a real thorn in our side) can harass 3 of our players.  Their two wide players happy to press inside to put more pressure on Smith and Massengo.

If Eliasson never comes off his wing to create better angles, or just to move his marker about to create space elsewhere, then the right side fails.  Copy that on the left side with O’Dowda, and we are resorted to playing it around the back, sometimes with Smith trying to make the play, and eventually Blackburn have made us pass to Baker, with the inevitable chipped ball forward.  Typically this happens 20 yards inside our own half.

When we can get 15 yards further forward and Smith on the ball, or maybe Pato, and past the initial press, then we can spring Diedhiou (if he makes the right run)....which is what happened for our goal.

All good sides work hard off the ball.  We don’t!  Simple as that.  Especially or wide players. In @Cowshed’s pic my 4231 version would have the Wide players much narrower, in fact I’d probably make it more 4312.

[Super]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Because they outnumbered ours.  Our two widemen left Smith and Massengo exposed with and without the ball. The rigidity of the Johnson system (which he calls “intricate”) means players cannot / do not think intuitively.  When the ball is in position A, each player is in their set position.  Fantastic, they are doing what the head-coach has instructed.  Unfortunately any manager worth his salt knows this and can set up to stifle this.  It is why we can no longer play through the thirds.

If you line up our guys against Backburn’s 4231 using @Cowshed pic above (City in black), it’s not hard to see, how a little bit of endeavour by Brereton (who was a real thorn in our side) can harass 3 of our players.  Their two wide players happy to press inside to put more pressure on Smith and Massengo.

If Eliasson never comes off his wing to create better angles, or just to move his marker about to create space elsewhere, then the right side fails.  Copy that on the left side with O’Dowda, and we are resorted to playing it around the back, sometimes with Smith trying to make the play, and eventually Blackburn have made us pass to Baker, with the inevitable chipped ball forward.  Typically this happens 20 yards inside our own half.

When we can get 15 yards further forward and Smith on the ball, or maybe Pato, and past the initial press, then we can spring Diedhiou (if he makes the right run)....which is what happened for our goal.

All good sides work hard off the ball.  We don’t!  Simple as that.  Especially or wide players. In @Cowshed’s pic my 4231 version would have the Wide players much narrower, in fact I’d probably make it more 4312.

Good post. Clearly Johnson got it wrong again.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I would like to see City play this in forms. City have the players. I don't accept Mr Johnsons he can't play in a two etc. That's called coaching and developing. Massengo has the legs and keeps it simple, quick and early. Players in the squad have more creative skills to break lines. The squad is full of youth = busy bees. Playing 4-3-3 will see the team matching up v opposition in centre midfield instead of getting overloaded, invert a full and City overload the opposition. Play 4-3-3 and it creates angles and diamonds and may assist City's poor movement (coaching again) and end to a degree City's plodding U passing that frequently goes nowhere, and bores many fans.    

4-3-3

Link (free) creates images, animations etc  

This is it, a great formation/setup for the current level we're at IMO. Angles, diamonds- also offers us a bit more security and when a side has that security in time they can take a few more risks. I believe that type of setup would suit Massengo. I believe it would suit Nagy.

Walsh on return as well- certainly wouldn't do any harm to Smith or Morrell. Would have suited Brownhill or enhanced his performance a bit further, given Pack a bit more freedom as well as his excellent role in front of the back 4, he could've loosened the cage a bit and injuries notwithstanding of course, I believe it might have suited Hegeler too. 

We're built for a 4-313 or 4-3-1-2 I think. This bit is less likely but I also wonder if the number of injuries might reduce a bit with this as the CMs especially would have to get through a bit less work. 

@Davefevs Spot on outnumbered. Holtby drops in and we have a problem, this for me is the starting point! What happens next is what you and Cowshed described between you.

[Highguy]

3 hours ago, Super said:

I agree but this is a thread on Massengo. Not sure constant fouling rattled them. They outclassed our midfield.

They outclassed our midfield at ashton gate aswell think massengo was given the role of the trying rattle their midfeild but didnt work

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Highguy said:

They outclassed our midfield at ashton gate aswell think massengo was given the role of the trying rattle their midfeild but didnt work

Outclassed, outnumbered or a bit of both?

[bristolcitysweden]

Massengo did really well and was the one single player up for it raring to go. When the teenager was subbed our game died. Simply no balls.

[marcofisher]

Given a far better showing of himself so far today! 

[westred1]

16 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Given a far better showing of himself so far today! 

Really? Other than one bit of skill where he retained the ball with a smart turn...

He constantly ball watches; takes up positions where he can’t receive the ball; gets in the way a hell of a lot; won’t look to run beyond Luongo.

I feel really sorry for Korey.

[Alex_BCFC]

Far better yet still poor.