Massengo

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Defensive or offensive contributions per 90. 

Fair enough. Can’t say I’ve seen it really. Did okay until teams started targeting him around November or December time (Blackburn and Millwall home games is where I remember it turning) and since then hasn’t really seemed up to the level. As you say, game of opinions after all. 

That Millwall game was definitely a “turning point”.

Just beaten Huddersfield and Fulham, with the same line-up and most thought LJ would make changes.  Some players had run their bollox off at Fulham, and a game a few days after that was probably a game too far for both Massengo and Nagy...and others.  We looked leggy, certainly those two did.  Millwall were right on it that night, their front 3 stopped all playing out from the back.

As a team, despite a 4 game winning run (against the bottom 4 and not sure we deserved 4 wins either) after Xmas I’m not sure we’ve ever recovered.  Teams sussed us out in the main.  Our inability to pass the ball being highlighted.  The odd game we did ok, e,g. Derby (h) - Sky cameras!!

[Packman]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

See @JonDolman’s post.  Okay was the general impression.

Just gonna throw out a question.  I don’t know the answer, but just keen on opinions:

what is their development was natural progression through experience / growth physically?

The reason I ask it that Reid, Bryan, Brownhill, Webster etc were all early 20s, moving into their peak years.  I’m not saying it’s not LJ’s coaching.

Has a player aged 26+ improved under LJ?

can’t think of one off the top of my head, but happy to be corrected.  Finally....

Which young players have gone backwards (or plateaued) under LJ?

If he is a great coach, why have some not progressed.

Just thought it was an interesting set of questions rather than just go with the “look at Reid, Bryan, etc, he must be a good coach”.

What do you think?

 

See @JonDolman’s post.  Okay was the general impression.

Just gonna throw out a question.  I don’t know the answer, but just keen on opinions:

what is their development was natural progression through experience / growth physically?

The reason I ask it that Reid, Bryan, Brownhill, Webster etc were all early 20s, moving into their peak years.  I’m not saying it’s not LJ’s coaching.

Has a player aged 26+ improved under LJ?

can’t think of more than one off the top of my head (Flint), but happy to be corrected.  Finally....

Which young players have gone backwards (or plateaued) under LJ?

If he is a great coach, why have some not progressed.

Just thought it was an interesting set of questions rather than just go with the “look at Reid, Bryan, etc, he must be a good coach”.

What do you think?

 

The reason I reeled of the list of names was basically to defend LJ a little bit. I'm not saying hes the worlds greatest coach, and he frustrates me at times, but everytime we have a poor performance I feel people go a bit over the top with their criticism. To say I feel sorry for Massengo because he won't progress under such a shit coach and that nobody has progressed upto now is clearly wrong. 

I honestly don't know whether these players would have naturally progressed without LJs help, nobody does but he surely has to take some credit. Bobby Reid was a league 1 player according to most on here but Johnson turned him into a 20 goal striker, he was getting slated by lots of people for even trying him upfront, people say he got lucky but he still must have saw something in him. The amount of money he's generated with the players he's sold surely shouldn't go unnoticed to, I meant 20 odd million for Webster is great business. 

Famara Diedhiou is now 27, in my opinion he's improved every season since we've got him, the fact that a team like Fenerbahce is interested in him shows how much he's improved. 

I think LJ has been unlucky this season with the Afobe injury, I know everyone has to deal with injuries but I think we would easily be top 6 if he would have not got injured when he did. 

 

[Lez]

2 minutes ago, Packman said:

The reason I reeled of the list of names was basically to defend LJ a little bit. I'm not saying hes the worlds greatest coach, and he frustrates me at times, but everytime we have a poor performance I feel people go a bit over the top with their criticism. To say I feel sorry for Massengo because he won't progress under such a shit coach and that nobody has progressed upto now is clearly wrong. 

I honestly don't know whether these players would have naturally progressed without LJs help, nobody does but he surely has to take some credit. Bobby Reid was a league 1 player according to most on here but Johnson turned him into a 20 goal striker, he was getting slated by lots of people for even trying him upfront, people say he got lucky but he still must have saw something in him. The amount of money he's generated with the players he's sold surely shouldn't go unnoticed to, I meant 20 odd million for Webster is great business. 

Famara Diedhiou is now 27, in my opinion he's improved every season since we've got him, the fact that a team like Fenerbahce is interested in him shows how much he's improved. 

I think LJ has been unlucky this season with the Afobe injury, I know everyone has to deal with injuries but I think we would easily be top 6 if he would have not got injured when he did. 

 

What is ljs footballing philosophy and what is our identity? 

[marcofisher]

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Clearly watching a different Skuse, but hey, ya know, footballing opinions, everyone has them.  

 Your post then goes one about not scapegoating, the then er scapegoating him because he doesnt meet 'your standards' whatever yardstick that is.

Stats wise  probably okay tbh but I',m not looking from a Moneyball perspective and looking elsewhere. Call it gut feeling if you will.  The boiling down of players to numbers/ robots is everything wrong with the modern game and is basically killing any passion for it. However that's what it is.

I think he is class, because of the way he carries himself and his skills and 'aura' he has something that we havent had for ages agree/disagree however basing your argument around cost/ stats means you may as well replace a player with a robot if that is all you want from the game and is all you are going to judge someone on. 

Have a great rest of your night

That’s not what I’ve said at all. Previously I have said he has looked poor in midfield and this is BACKED UP by the stats and therefore shouldn’t be kept in the side based on value/reputation. Many on this forum have previously said “you don’t loan out a Monaco academy graduate/£4mill player”, as if that makes any difference. Players should be picked on what they are actually bringing to the team.

You say everyone has footballing opinions yet seem very discontent at someone actually having one that you need to label it “scapegoating”. 

[Packman]

7 minutes ago, Lez said:

What is ljs footballing philosophy and what is our identity? 

I would say his philosophy has changed over the years, initially it was high tempo, pressing up the pitch trying to force mistakes from the opposition. Maybe he felt this was unsustainable and the players may have burned  out, as I would say it's now a more pragmatic approach, I mean I'm not sure you'll have to ask him but that's how I see it. As for our identity, I couldn't tell you.

[Lez]

1 minute ago, Packman said:

I would say his philosophy has changed over the years, initially it was high tempo, pressing up the pitch trying to force mistakes from the opposition. Maybe he felt this was unsustainable and the players may have burned  out, as I would say it's now a more pragmatic approach, I mean I'm not sure you'll have to ask him but that's how I see it. As for our identity, I couldn't tell you.

I can think of 2 players in LJs time here who pressed....Reid and weimann

We have never played high tempo football under LJ, it has always been slow especially at home where as away it has been soak up pressure and hit on the break.

In all honesty you dont know, I dont know and LJ certainly doesnt know.

[Packman]

3 minutes ago, Lez said:

I can think of 2 players in LJs time here who pressed....Reid and weimann

We have never played high tempo football under LJ, it has always been slow especially at home where as away it has been soak up pressure and hit on the break.

In all honesty you dont know, I dont know and LJ certainly doesnt know.

I would say the season Wolves won the league we were playing high tempo football, especially at the start of the season.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Packman said:

I would say his philosophy has changed over the years, initially it was high tempo, pressing up the pitch trying to force mistakes from the opposition. Maybe he felt this was unsustainable and the players may have burned  out, as I would say it's now a more pragmatic approach, I mean I'm not sure you'll have to ask him but that's how I see it. As for our identity, I couldn't tell you.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Read through some bits of that...and really like what I was reading tbh!

3 key bits...think it could certainly be less verbose and easier summarized- the whole thing I mean, 5 or 6 key principles but it sounds fantastic...

So two things spring to mind for me- at least two!

1. Why does he all too often set us up in a way that won't necessarily achieve these aims? Maybe in League One his formation might have but not this one.
2. Even that aside though, putting formations out of the picture- what the hell does he instruct them in training! We're a million miles off this stuff and some of the players he selects at the expense of better choices are unsuited to a high line e.g., to the quick reactions needed but even individual selection points aside, his training and instructions must be so far off this judging by many matchdays in last two years!

[WayOutWest]

12 hours ago, OldlandReddies said:

Simply not good enough.

Really?? I don't want to get into it with you. I wouldn't know how to communicate with you. What's it like on your planet. Wtf does it say about "fans" when they feel free to rip into one of our young players. Post covid19. Living abroad and puts in a gutsy wayward performance that got him subbed at half time. 

There were senior players to him ie basically every other player on the pitch that didn't stand up and put in a shift.

Embarrassed for you fella. 

As a matter of interest. Could you please post who you did like on Saturday? 

[Clutton Caveman]

22 hours ago, marcofisher said:

Because he had two games this season where he has been good and has been relatively poor over the course. Nobody is deriding him, just suggesting that he is perhaps not as ready for the first team as initially thought. 

KP and COD while not everyone's cup of tea, at least will chip in some goals and assists. Massengo has offered next to nothing creatively or defensively this season. This is evident both on the eye and according to the stats.

He is not yet at the level for a playoff chasing squad and should be loaned out to better serve his development IMO. Look what wonders it has done for Walsh and Morrell who have seen their stock improve dramatically over the course of this season. 

 

 

 

Looked OK until our super coach bored all the football out of him

[Davefevs]

@WayOutWest @billywedlock

[Midred]

As has been said previously on here he was obviously naive and a little too pumped up in the firat half but it still baffles me how the "tackle"  on him just after his booking was just waved away by the referee? I speculated before that perhaps the lack of a home support might make the referee's job a bit easier but he never the less managed to favour the home team who only had to trio over to get a free kick!

[Major Isewater]

10 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Very young, and thrown in at the deep end. He was an attacking midfielder when he joined (LJ on transfer day) but I see little of that in his game. He works hard and collects the ball with ease but suffers from lack of options around him. So he hesitates. Every time he plays the opposition pressurise him rapidly . He often gets pushed off the ball or , as Saturday, into a foul. But he has a lot of great attributes that need developing and he will develop. The lack of quality in our midfield has put huge responsibility on him. Saturday he was in the role Pack played, being the outlet from the back. That is a big position, and far from easy. Is he better than Morrell or Walsh ? Should he out on loan next season ? We will see , but potential he certainly has and he has time on his side. It should have been  Nagy (Covid ?) and Henrikson (Called out by LJ , decided not for me)  that took on the main midfield role not a teenager. With no Brownhill (Henrikson signed to replace) we have a big issue hence why they are looking at Vyner. We are too lightweight in midfield. 

Sorry but if you’re talking about Massengo then you are wrong , he was always a defensive midfielder and has stated that that is his preferred position. 
 

He is more a replacement for Korey Smith ,

[italian dave]

On 21/06/2020 at 13:14, marcofisher said:

. Nobody is deriding him,

 

 

 

Not what the rest of the thread would suggest!

[Gazred]

You only have to look at his highlight reel for the season on YouTube to see that he is, by our standards, an exceptional talent for an inexperienced 18 year old.

He's been woefully exposed by those around him on several occasions this season and rightly targeted by the opposition because of this. 

He may well have had a drop in form himself but nothing has changed for me. He's a quality young player.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Sorry but if you’re talking about Massengo then you are wrong , he was always a defensive midfielder and has stated that that is his preferred position. 
 

He is more a replacement for Korey Smith ,

Too much made about referring to him as a “Defensive” midfielder, just because in the systems we play (4231, 5212, 442 etc) lend themselves to call the deeper midfielders “DMs”.  He’s just a midfielder who plays in the centre.  In those early games in a 5212, he often plays ahead of Brownhill.

[mozo]

I personally see him as too mobile for defensive midfielder and I think he enjoys playing in the other team's half too. Box to box potential. 

[ORANGE500]

38 minutes ago, Gazred said:

You only have to look at his highlight reel for the season on YouTube to see that he is, by our standards, an exceptional talent for an inexperienced 18 year old.

He's been woefully exposed by those around him on several occasions this season and rightly targeted by the opposition because of this. 

He may well have had a drop in form himself but nothing has changed for me. He's a quality young player.

The fact Monaco sold him to Bristol City would suggest their coaching staff don't share your belief thats he is an exceptional talent. He wouldn't be at City if he wasnt fairly average we have better players out on loan a completely unnecessary signing

[Major Isewater]

17 minutes ago, ORANGE500 said:

The fact Monaco sold him to Bristol City would suggest their coaching staff don't share your belief thats he is an exceptional talent. He wouldn't be at City if he wasnt fairly average we have better players out on loan a completely unnecessary signing

Monaco aren’t a rich club and need to sell to survive . Their average gates are similar to those of the Gas.

They fully believed in Massengo , he has passed all his footballing life playing at a higher level than his age group and shining .

He is the youngest Frenchman to have played in the Champion’s League , selected by no less than Thierry Henry . 
 

They didn’t want to let him go but money talks. 
 

This lad is an exceptional talent, just needs a decent coach to help him kick on.

[Mr Popodopolous]

58 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Monaco aren’t a rich club and need to sell to survive . Their average gates are similar to those of the Gas.

They fully believed in Massengo , he has passed all his footballing life playing at a higher level than his age group and shining .

He is the youngest Frenchman to have played in the Champion’s League , selected by no less than Thierry Henry . 
 

They didn’t want to let him go but money talks. 
 

This lad is an exceptional talent, just needs a decent coach to help him kick on.

They have a great academy I understand. While that's no guarantee,  it's a useful starting point.

That's interesting insight however. It sounds like he was highly regarded indeed.

@Davefevs Interested in whether you think a 3 might suit him best. In a 3, Massengo-Palmer-Afobe Wells or Weimann first reserve. Can see a clear line through the thirds...just think we're failing to get the best out of so many. I bet he would be shining more consistently at Brentford! Can possibly add a fit Nagy to that.

[Snufflelufagus]

The main problem as is with lots of these sort of players for me is 

1. Starts out playing with a bit of flair, but now the coach has got hold of him it has been coached out of him. Probably been drilled to run a bit more and tackle a bit more (not his game).

2. Probably thinks why did I leave Monaco to be shown big screens of tactics with drones flying around my head.

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

They have a great academy I understand. While that's no guarantee,  it's a useful starting point.

That's interesting insight however. It sounds like he was highly regarded indeed.

@Davefevs Interested in whether you think a 3 might suit him best. In a 3, Massengo-Palmer-Afobe Wells or Weimann first reserve. Can see a clear line through the thirds...just think we're failing to get the best out of so many. I bet he would be shining more consistently at Brentford! Can possibly add a fit Nagy to that.

A midfield 3?

[ORANGE500]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Monaco aren’t a rich club and need to sell to survive . Their average gates are similar to those of the Gas.

They fully believed in Massengo , he has passed all his footballing life playing at a higher level than his age group and shining .

He is the youngest Frenchman to have played in the Champion’s League , selected by no less than Thierry Henry . 
 

They didn’t want to let him go but money talks. 
 

This lad is an exceptional talent, just needs a decent coach to help him kick on.

Yes money does talk  if he was remotely as good as you claim one of Europe's top clubs would have offered more, exceptional talents do not sign for Bristol  City our club is important to us but in the grand scheme of football City are a non entity and a top French talent wouldn't be interested the lad is  average at best and we should have played Walsh and Morrell in midfield this season and either loaned him out or left him in monaco

[Gazred]

2 hours ago, ORANGE500 said:

The fact Monaco sold him to Bristol City would suggest their coaching staff don't share your belief thats he is an exceptional talent. He wouldn't be at City if he wasnt fairly average we have better players out on loan a completely unnecessary signing

As i said, exceptional by our standards, not Monaco's.

You don't rate him, that's ok.

[Street red]

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Monaco aren’t a rich club and need to sell to survive . Their average gates are similar to those of the Gas.

They fully believed in Massengo , he has passed all his footballing life playing at a higher level than his age group and shining .

He is the youngest Frenchman to have played in the Champion’s League , selected by no less than Thierry Henry . 
 

They didn’t want to let him go but money talks. 
 

This lad is an exceptional talent, just needs a decent coach to help him kick on.

After the game man city v Burnley they where talking about folan and how he will he progress more and get more game time stay or go on loan. Souness said he was probably better off staying developing with the better player the higher class of player instead of going onloan rather than playing with men and be kicked about everyweek, And i thought of Massengo, Is city going to stop his progression and would he be developing faster with better players around him.. Is the championship the ideal place to be for a player like Massengo and was it the right move..

It's a different game in the premier league and I'm just thinking how would Massengo progress if he had signed for Chelsea or arsenal etc etc Better movement faster thinking players fitness.. I understand what city's trying to do signing these players but surely we now need to be thinking of getting a better coaching team to get the class out of players like Massengo.

[Davefevs]

54 minutes ago, Street red said:

After the game man city v Burnley they where talking about folan and how he will he progress more and get more game time stay or go on loan. Souness said he was probably better off staying developing with the better player the higher class of player instead of going onloan rather than playing with men and be kicked about everyweek, And i thought of Massengo, Is city going to stop his progression and would he be developing faster with better players around him.. Is the championship the ideal place to be for a player like Massengo and was it the right move..

It's a different game in the premier league and I'm just thinking how would Massengo progress if he had signed for Chelsea or arsenal etc etc Better movement faster thinking players fitness.. I understand what city's trying to do signing these players but surely we now need to be thinking of getting a better coaching team to get the class out of players like Massengo.

It’s a valid comment.  On a very different level, I could never understand why Freddie Hinds went out on loan to Cheltenham.  Having burst on the scene, I always thought he’d be better learning alongside Reid etc.

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

On 21/06/2020 at 14:38, ORANGE500 said:

Massengo is simply not good enough in really if he was anywhere near what some people have been claiming he would not under any circunstances have signed for Bristol City. Bringing him and Nagy in at the expense of Walsh and Morrell was the worst in a catalogue of poor recruitment decisions this season, no benefit in  sign ing players that are not better than what you've already got .

Johnson should not be given any more big money to spend the best academy players should be given an opportunity to play in the first team most of them are in their early 20's if not now when , Bringing in inferior players from abroad is not a recipe for succss

Posts like this get on my nerves.

 

No one at the start of the season would have had Morrell in the starting team or Walsh. They have had good seasons on loan, fair play to them. They have now earned a shot at first team football next season but neither had proven themselves to be ready before this season. Losing Pack, we needed Nagy and when an opportunity comes along to sign a young prospect who could potentially earn the club a pretty fortune you don’t turn it down. 
 

If you just watch our games on Sky Massengo has had a lot of plaudits, effectively free advertising of our asset which will drive his price up. 
 

Cant say he’s been poor this season, in fact on Saturday he was the only midfielder with a  positive mindset, get the ball and tried to do something with it. Other than pass it back and forth with Kalas and Baker for 5 mins 

 

[Cowshed]

On 22/06/2020 at 01:48, Mr Popodopolous said:

Read through some bits of that...and really like what I was reading tbh!

3 key bits...think it could certainly be less verbose and easier summarized- the whole thing I mean, 5 or 6 key principles but it sounds fantastic...

So two things spring to mind for me- at least two!

1. Why does he all too often set us up in a way that won't necessarily achieve these aims? Maybe in League One his formation might have but not this one.
2. Even that aside though, putting formations out of the picture- what the hell does he instruct them in training! We're a million miles off this stuff and some of the players he selects at the expense of better choices are unsuited to a high line e.g., to the quick reactions needed but even individual selection points aside, his training and instructions must be so far off this judging by many matchdays in last two years!

The principle are there (sort of).

In possession.

Principles -

• Dominate possession.
• Playing high.

Sub principles - That is the ways of doing the above.  

• Play out from the back.
• Recycle ball.

Sub sub principles - The how's of the above. 

• Triggers.
• Exit points

Sub sub principles are micro goals. Sub principles are meso goals. Both sub and sub sub principles can alter but they should not alter to a point where the teams principles disappear. 

The principles are the teams identity yada. You don't lose them. They don't go missing. . 

Why does he all too often set us up in a way that won't necessarily achieve these aims? Because he isn't following them. Mr Johnson is a bluffer.

[sugarwray]

Massengo is class. He is young and developing. There is no question about his skill and technique. Match awareness and physique will come, as will the first goal. Blackburn took him on physically and the ref did him no favours. It was not a game for skill to easily win the day. I am happy to pay to watch him. If you are looking for future big transfer fees to come in I would rate him as a top prospect. I understand the frustrations but I am 100% behind him. COYR