LJ Ball

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, hodge said:

People talking about going all out for 8 games, would you be satisfied if LJ said it did so and we missed out by 1 point where a more conservative approach could have actually seen us over the line? Would people react by saying ‘oh well at least he went for it’ or ‘LJ missed the play offs so LJ out’ ? Easy for anyone on here to say to go for it when it’s not your job that is potentially on the line if he fails.

Personally I dont care how many points we miss out by. I just want to watch a side trying to play entertaining football with each player giving 100% no matter what division we are in.

[RumRed]

‘Balls out’ for the rest of the season. I won’t judge Johnson if we miss out with that approach. It’s been a crap year, and must be difficult for the players, I’d rather watch some entertaining football.

We’re unlikely to win the playoffs anyway even if we do get there playing like this.

The end of this season is a free pass from me, but only if we go all in. Spluttering our way to disappointment is my worst nightmare. 
 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

As usual after a defeat, every footballing expert is coming out of the woodwork to teach the manager how to do his job.  It’s easy, isn’t it?  But how does a manger make sure that his keeper doesn’t drop the ball?

by picking the goalie that doesn’t drop it, isn’t out of form, etc.

How does he legislate fir the opposition playing well?

I don’t think Blackburn were that great, but they had more desire, more heart, more willingness etc to do the hard yards.  That is unacceptable from our lot inho.

 I find it extraordinary that you find every single decision taken on the pitch by the players, every single move they make, every single the mistake, to be the responsibility of the manager.

True, players have to take responsibility too.  I see no leaders out there on Saturday.  Not even Korey.  The closest I saw was Massengo.

I understand what Johnson is trying to do.  I can even understand his team selection on Saturday, which seemed designed to keep it tight for half the game or an hour,

if that genuinely was the plan, keep it tight, go for it with subs, I cannot fathom why O’Dowda and Eliasson started.  I was amazed we went with two wingers, who played purely as wingers.  They didn’t help the midfield two once, nor did Pato.

before making use of the additional substitutes to win the game, but how can you hold him entirely responsible if the team don’t deliver?  There’s no doubt things haven’t gone the way we would have wanted this season - the rejection by Nketiah; the injury to Afobe; the injury to Kalas; the sale of Brownhill; but hey, it’s only a game.  We have good young players coming through and the prospect of an exciting future, and in any case does anyone really want to get promotion to a Premier League played behind closed doors?

yep.  I do.  I want us to do well.  Behind closed doors might be the new norm for a good while, or restricted capacity etc.

These are extraordinary times.  We have played one game and suddenly we have gone from optimism to abject defeatism and ritual abuse of the manager in the safe of 48 hours.

I’m not sure it’s defeatism, I think it’s bewilderment that if that’s what we served up after 3 months break, a fully fit squad (Weimann excepted), to choose who he wanted, how he wanted them to play, how is it gonna get any better for the last 8 games.  The hope is still there for most people, but that hope is based on him stumbling on something that might work.
It’s so ****ing depressing.  It would be nice if people could control their anger and just try to enjoy what little football is available to us.
I don’t think there has been anger, frustration yes, but good critical debate in the main.

And please could people remember that this is real football, not some kids simulation game?  You are a supporter, you watch the game, but none of us really know that much about it, and we certainly don’t know more than the professionals.  It would be hilarious to see fans teaching managers how to do their jobs if it wasn’t so tragic.

it would be interesting to shadow LJ for a week.

Comments above....some a bit facetious....sorry, especially the first one!

[redsince1994]

I guarantee we will be playing slick attacking football against Sheff Wed on Sunday. 

Just realised I am unable to watch it, the last game I missed was Huddersfield at home. 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

Thanks to all for their reasoned and constructive responses to my earlier post.  You’ve restored my faith in OTIB.

[E.G.Red]

3 hours ago, hodge said:

People talking about going all out for 8 games, would you be satisfied if LJ said it did so and we missed out by 1 point where a more conservative approach could have actually seen us over the line? Would people react by saying ‘oh well at least he went for it’ or ‘LJ missed the play offs so LJ out’ ? Easy for anyone on here to say to go for it when it’s not your job that is potentially on the line if he fails.

But I thought that was exactly what LJ said he was going to do. I’m sure I heard on more than one occasion during Lockdown that he was ‘going to go for it’  

To quote Alfred Lord Tennyson:

‘It’s better to have tried and failed than to live life wondering what would’ve happened if I had tried”

[Bristol Oil Services]

4 hours ago, daored said:

Mentioned it on another thread - it would be welcome if he came out and said we’ve got eight games we’re just going to go for it (shit or bust) , I back my players to beat anyone in this league. 

To say this, Lee would have to mentally put to one side the stats that show who we have beaten this season (almost entirely bottom half of the table sides) and who we have not been able to beat (other than Fulham away, I'm struggling to recall another win against a side that were top half of the table, ie in good form, when we played them) and the fact that we have still to play Swansea, Cardiff, Forest and Preston, all going well as we speak.

We have been shit against the best sides this season, Fulham excepted.

[Bristol Oil Services]

3 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

 

 It would be nice if people could control their anger and just try to enjoy what little football is available to us.  

We have enjoyed "what little football" there has been this season, we just want more of it.

[Son of Fred]

4 hours ago, daored said:

Who knows how we’ll line up on Sunday and there is the problem - neither do the players 

Nor does Lee...

He has so many options at the moment - this is when he's at his worst...

Baffles himself with science.

 

 

[Southport Red]

4 hours ago, hodge said:

People talking about going all out for 8 games, would you be satisfied if LJ said it did so and we missed out by 1 point where a more conservative approach could have actually seen us over the line? Would people react by saying ‘oh well at least he went for it’ or ‘LJ missed the play offs so LJ out’ ? Easy for anyone on here to say to go for it when it’s not your job that is potentially on the line if he fails.

Yes I would (be satisfied with ‘going for it’ and missing out by 1), for two reasons
 

1). The current approach has no chance if getting us ‘over the line’, the last 8 games have been relegation form, and

2) It isn't sliding doors, if you adopt one tactic, you will never know what ‘might have been’ so I wouldn’t ever know about the ‘squeaking through’ scenario. 

[downendcity]

From the thread title I thought the OP was promoting an end of season event to celebrate LJ's 5 years in charge!

[054123]

4 hours ago, hodge said:

People talking about going all out for 8 games, would you be satisfied if LJ said it did so and we missed out by 1 point where a more conservative approach could have actually seen us over the line? Would people react by saying ‘oh well at least he went for it’ or ‘LJ missed the play offs so LJ out’ ? Easy for anyone on here to say to go for it when it’s not your job that is potentially on the line if he fails.

‘Over the line’?

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, 054123 said:

‘Over the line’?

The phrasing in this case refers to into the play offs

[Davefevs]

51 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

To say this, Lee would have to mentally put to one side the stats that show who we have beaten this season (almost entirely bottom half of the table sides) and who we have not been able to beat (other than Fulham away, I'm struggling to recall another win against a side that were top half of the table, ie in good form, when we played them) and the fact that we have still to play Swansea, Cardiff, Forest and Preston, all going well as we speak.

We have been shit against the best sides this season, Fulham excepted.

Pretty much spot on.  Flat track bullies?

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, City oz said:

Have you seen city play in the top flight ? Do you really think LJ can bring this too the gate ? 

I have, and absolutely no chance!

[Portland Bill]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Pretty much spot on.  Flat track bullies?

Four years of Johnson, millions spent, massive turnover of players, record run of defeats, the odd good run of results,dull boring football, backed to the hilt by his chairman.

What has he achieved, a massive 10 places higher than when he arrived

[mozo]

5 hours ago, Coin-op said:

I don't get why he just doesn't go for it in these final games?  Treat them as must win games.  At least he could say we gave it a go.  He has had three months to think about a strategy and this is what we get?!  Bonkers.  It is very frustrating to watch whilst remembering the brilliant pressing style we once had.  Why not try it for these last games?  It is not as if they will have to do it over 49 odd games.  C'mon Lee show us an 'identity,' a style of play.

Forget the final 7 games, for now I'd like City to treat the game against Wednesday as a World Cup final and Champions League final all rolled into one. A win on Sunday, and indeed positive performance, is absolutely crucial!

One game. Go and win it!

[054123]

1 hour ago, hodge said:

The phrasing in this case refers to into the play offs

[054123]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Pretty much spot on.  Flat track bullies?

4 points from a potential 15 (so far) away at the bottom 6 isn’t that great either. This from a team who are better away from home.

[Major Isewater]

3 hours ago, Kibs said:

Honestly, I'm so beyond caring about the play-offs! I just want to see my team go out there with a bit of attacking intent, play with a bit of freedom rather than looking completely shackled and like every pass/run (ha ha I know) is completely scripted. It's so predictable, it's so boring, it's completely soul destroying to watch. Even if we did somehow fluke our way into the Play-Offs, I'd be terrified that someone like Brentford would beat us by 6 or 7 over the two legs anyway. The players have no confidence, because the manager doesn't instill it. 

My heart sank the second I saw the starting eleven on Saturday, and so what followed didn't surprise me one bit. I can't tell you how many times that's happened this season. 

You can tell me , I am a doctor . 
 

[Mr Popodopolous]

25 minutes ago, 054123 said:

4 points from a potential 15 (so far) away at the bottom 6 isn’t that great either. This from a team who are better away from home.

I think it's to do with our reactive style.

Better suited to the road, but not necessarily vs those sides who might give us the initiative- although having said that even our 4 pts at Barnsley and Wigan came under the cosh for good periods and we arguably even lucky to get as many points as that!

I'm not sure what the answer is but much more worryingly I'm not sure LJ knows either!

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

LJ was a coach who believed in the romance of football, the last minute winner nodded in by the Keeper, Two wingers tormenting the opposition defence , going toe to toe with the biggest and the best and winning.

I have criticised him in the past for being too ‘ gung ho ‘ but he has swung completely the other way serving up boring, turgid , negative football which is hard to watch and must be horrible for the players to adhere to .

He hasn’t got a scooby I am afraid. 
 

 

Interesting. Agree it is not a good watch right now and things getting worse- swung the other way yeah to a point, Sunderland at home is a possible example where we went to gung ho- Diony for Reid took away our balance a bit for a start, as well as our energy up top but I digress!

Genuinely think his two wingers system won't work.  Not now, not at this level- without a solid midfield base ie a genuine 3. I think many of our issues stem from midfield- we are neither secure enough nor are we dynamic enough. If he wants two wingers he needs a central 3 IMO. Two wingers and strikers won't work if he wants control. Your wingers can be somewhat useless if you lose the middle.

I think he knows what he wants, perhaps- but doesn't have a clue how to get there.

[054123]

40 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think it's to do with our reactive style.

Better suited to the road, but not necessarily vs those sides who might give us the initiative- although having said that even our 4 pts at Barnsley and Wigan came under the cosh for good periods and we arguably even lucky to get as many points as that!

I'm not sure what the answer is but much more worryingly I'm not sure LJ knows either!

Yes I thought that, it’s like we’re not good enough to compete consistently with sides who are either technically better than us or stronger than us. Teams somewhere around the middle we can handle.

Over generalisation, I know.

[Bristol Oil Services]

8 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Not that long ago, we had a forward thinking young first team coach being rightly given plaudits far and wide for the pressing, neat passing interchange, football we were playing. Who can forget that memorable win over Man.Utd.

Then it came to the pivotal league match at home to Wolves, we got a deserved 1-0 lead against 10 men and LJ gambled in leaving Aden Flint up front as he went for the 2^nd killer goal. It was a gamble that back fired badly as Wolves came back to win, exposing the defensive space where Flint should have been. So the seeds of doubt were sown, and despite some swansong performances, notably against Man. City, the first inklings of “LJ ball” had been born.

Now “LJ Ball” is fully matured, it’s difficult for us numpty supporters to understand but these are the basic principles:

1.       Don’t pick a team or formation to play to our strengths, pick them to counter the opposition’s strengths. This rule is paramount.

2.       Pick ‘trusted’ players (those that don’t question you) even if there are better players available and even if you have to play the “trusted” ones out of position.

3.       Short sideways passes are great for possession stats, play lots of them.

4.       Avoid fast counter attacks that could leave gaps for the opposition to exploit, instead play it slow and steady in our own half.

5.       Avoid risky forward passes on the ground; instead hoof it to the flanks, or even straight down the middle.

6.       If you are a forward who actually receives a hoof ball (this won’t happen often) don’t try and take defenders on, or run forward, you might lose possession. Stop, check back, pass it backwards.

7.       Don’t worry about having shots on target, this is an overrated stat.

8.       If anybody questions your team selection, tactics (sic), or any aspect of you, just baffle them with bullsh*t.

There you have it.

Disagree, mate. With all due respect. 

I think on the training pitch, Lee has them practicing everything he wants to see from his team, the coaching is text-book and inspirational, the team look the business up Failand during the week, no-one is knocking it long, back to front, not even Bakes, CO'D looks a million dollars (so to speak), Fam's on fire, the ball is skimming like a weasel across the precisely clipped grass, neat little triangles, it's like Iniesta has called in to play, Pato is dropping it on a sixpence, it all goes to plan, they are up for this! Bring it on! and he delivers a confident and optimistic message on a Thursday to Gregory and co.

Then Saturday comes, they run out on the grass, the whistle goes, and his team play like drains.

And he truly doesn't have a clue as to why, or what to do about it. And neither do we.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Could the problem be

"The opposition"

Sounds a bit flippant and it is a little but if he has them great in training, shining, looking fantastic- I'm assuming he would set up two sides similarly in an 11v11 game- though I'm really guessing on this one.

If I'm Mowbray Saturday, I know or have a feeling that I will have a numerical advantage in CM. Holtby dropping in will provide this and if someone tucks in from the wing, that can expose in a 2 v 1 out wide.

People say LJ doesn't seek to impose our strengths enough on the opposition but I would take a different view. In some ways he does not, but in other ways...it's not so much failure to impose our strengths as seeking to impose the wrong ones, ones that can be too easily negated and countered! Maybe wrong strengths is incorrect but in a division full of sides who play 3 in CM albeit in varying forms, he certainly does go his own way in this respect! All too easy to counteract. He wants the impossible in a way- in such a divisional context, he want an attacking 4-4-2 and presumably control at the same time!

[Kibs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Could the problem be

"The opposition"

Sounds a bit flippant and it is a little but if he has them great in training, shining, looking fantastic- I'm assuming he would set up two sides similarly in an 11v11 game- though I'm really guessing on this one.

If I'm Mowbray Saturday, I know or have a feeling that I will have a numerical advantage in CM. Holtby dropping in will provide this and if someone tucks in from the wing, that can expose in a 2 v 1 out wide.

People say LJ doesn't seek to impose our strengths enough on the opposition but I would take a different view. In some ways he does not, but in other ways...it's not so much failure to impose our strengths as seeking to impose the wrong ones, ones that can be too easily negated and countered! Maybe wrong strengths is incorrect but in a division full of sides who play 3 in CM albeit in varying forms, he certainly does go his own way in this respect! All too easy to counteract. He wants the impossible in a way- in such a divisional context, he want an attacking 4-4-2 and presumably control at the same time!

An interesting viewpoint, but a genuine question - what do you consider our strengths? Because the only one I can ever think of is our Subs bench! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Kibs said:

An interesting viewpoint, but a genuine question - what do you consider our strengths? Because the only one I can ever think of is our Subs bench! 

I believe a different tactical gameplan would accenuate our strengths and mask some of our weaknesses.

I can name one strength straight off the bat- we convert a decent rate of our chances. More than decent for the League, divisional average etc.

[Kibs]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I believe a different tactical gameplan would accenuate our strengths and mask some of our weaknesses.

I can name one strength straight off the bat- we convert a decent rate of our chances. More than decent for the League, divisional average etc.

I wish we'd be far more positive, not just in terms of selection but getting bodies forward etc because I really believe we have players capable of putting teams away.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Kibs said:

I wish we'd be far more positive, not just in terms of selection but getting bodies forward etc because I really believe we have players capable of putting teams away.

I think we can do better for sure.

You got Palmer, Weimann, Afobe Wells...Diedhiou contributes in different ways but goals too of course.

Eliasson, all those assists.

Hunt and DaSilva, outlet. Paterson- can be in and out but when he's good he's very good.

I would not mind at all seeing something like:

Bentley/Maenpaa- the latter now tbh after Saturday!

Hunt Kalas Benkovic/Baker DaSilva

        Smith Nagy Massengo

                 Palmer

          Afobe Wells

Weimann as first reserve up front, Paterson as first reserve for Palmer- think that goes well tbh.

Or:

The same GK/Defence/Midfield

Then:

Weimann                           Eliasson

                 Afobe

Wells first reserve. Or vice versa. Not advocating Weimann as a winger as such, more a wide right, or slightly narrower RF.

Perhgaps even that GK/Defence/Mid and then

Weimann Afobe Wells

As a fairly dynamic front 3!

With the 5 subs we can switch in-game too- we could do so much better. Stylistically and tbh race for 6th or even 5th...don't see us as top 2 but strong playoff contenders with a style of play to be proud of, absolutely!

[Redrascal2]

10 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

As usual after a defeat, every footballing expert is coming out of the woodwork to teach the manager how to do his job.  It’s easy, isn’t it?  But how does a manger make sure that his keeper doesn’t drop the ball?  How does he legislate fir the opposition playing well?  I find it extraordinary that you find every single decision taken on the pitch by the players, every single move they make, every single the mistake, to be the responsibility of the manager.

I understand what Johnson is trying to do.  I can even understand his team selection on Saturday, which seemed designed to keep it tight for half the game or an hour, before making use of the additional substitutes to win the game, but how can you hold him entirely responsible if the team don’t deliver?  There’s no doubt things haven’t gone the way we would have wanted this season - the rejection by Nketiah; the injury to Afobe; the injury to Kalas; the sale of Brownhill; but hey, it’s only a game.  We have good young players coming through and the prospect of an exciting future, and in any case does anyone really want to get promotion to a Premier League played behind closed doors?

These are extraordinary times.  We have played one game and suddenly we have gone from optimism to abject defeatism and ritual abuse of the manager in the safe of 48 hours.  It’s so ****ing depressing.  It would be nice if people could control their anger and just try to enjoy what little football is available to us.  And please could people remember that this is real football, not some kids simulation game?  You are a supporter, you watch the game, but none of us really know that much about it, and we certainly don’t know more than the professionals.  It would be hilarious to see fans teaching managers how to do their jobs if it wasn’t so tragic.

By the same token. If I had consistently repeated the same mistakes in my job when I was working I would have been dismissed. Not continually given more resources like LJ. And if I had given the excuses and bull that he gives out I would have been gone even sooner.