Everton show the way .

[WECANDO]

On 25/06/2020 at 12:44, Bouncearoundtheground said:

Steve has been waiting for an excuse to hire Mark Robins for years

Well his connections with Man U and the fact that he got Walsh to get 3 awards this season, is in his favour.

[Major Isewater]

2 minutes ago, WECANDO said:

Well his connections with Man U and the fact that he got Walsh to get 3 awards this season, is in his favour.

Most importantly he has got Coventry promoted whilst not having their own ground and a host of off field problems to overcome.

He has a footballing career which would give him credit in the dressing room .

 

[Major Isewater]

28 minutes ago, WECANDO said:

The question is - How then do we become a big club?

We need to show a little more ambition with our coaching team recruitment and also our ambition to get to the Prem needs to be shown to others.
 

Nakhi Wells obviously thinks that we are a good proposition to go up our else he wouldn’t have joined us , idem Kalas, Afobe, Dasilva ...

Most other things are in place that a big club needs , stadium, new training ground ...

 

[Major Isewater]

Just a little addition to this thread with a quote from Kevin Ratcliffe.

 

"Everton have been spending money on players without having a top-class manager," says Ratcliffe.

They have had big problems until finally bringing in a top manager for the Prem who has stabilised the club , moved them into mid table and knows what to do to make them better. 
 

You wouldn’t put your Aunt Mabel in a formula 1 car . 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Major Isewater

[Port Said Red]

22 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Just a little addition to this thread with a quote from Kevin Ratcliffe.

 

"Everton have been spending money on players without having a top-class manager," says Ratcliffe.

They have had big problems until finally bringing in a top manager for the Prem who has stabilised the club , moved them into mid table and knows what to do to make them better. 
 

You wouldn’t put your Aunt Mabel in a formula 1 car . 

Forgive my ignorance as someone who knows nothing about Everton football club, but in what way has he improved things?

[Major Isewater]

46 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Forgive my ignorance as someone who knows nothing about Everton football club, but in what way has he improved things?

They were in fifteenth place in the table when he took over they finished in twelfth. So ‘ progress ‘ . 
 

He is in the process of reorganising the club after years of underperforming and bad management. 
 

Here’s the link if you’re interested 

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53662458 

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

They were in fifteenth place in the table when he took over they finished in twelfth. So ‘ progress ‘ . 
 

He is in the process of reorganising the club after years of underperforming and bad management. 
 

Here’s the link if you’re interested 

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53662458 

Thank you. So they were in a totally different position then.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

They were in fifteenth place in the table when he took over they finished in twelfth. So ‘ progress ‘ . 
 

He is in the process of reorganising the club after years of underperforming and bad management. 
 

Here’s the link if you’re interested 

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53662458 

Interesting to see how they will comply with relevant regulations- think UEFA may have something to say if they come into their competitions significantly over limits or fudged.

Lost £111.8m in 2018/19, albeit 13 month accounts so pushes up costs a bit and revenue side down a bit. Perhaps would've been closer to only the £100m if 12 month ones.

I suppose they could always look to front-load costs now, but stay out of Europe- grow within PL loss limits and then as the club grows commercially and the off-field structure grows, sponsorship, enter European competition in several years quite compliant.

Sacking Koeman, Big Sam and Silva in successive years sure won't have helped!

Edited August 6, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous

[southvillekiddy]

On 25/06/2020 at 07:06, Major Isewater said:

Everton signalled their ambitions with the appointment of three-time Champions League-winning boss Ancelotti in December to replace Marco Silva, who was sacked after a string of poor results.

When the Italian took over, Everton were 15th in the table and staring the wrong way - just four points clear of the relegation zone - but their latest victory sees them looking in the opposite direction, four points behind seventh-placed Tottenham.

Get the best coach available and look what happens with the same squad of players.

That's what I was saying a month ago and getting a lot of flack for it. Included in that was the idea that you pay whatever that person needs to accept the job. You don't muck them around as we may well have done with Hughton.

[Mr Popodopolous]

When UEFA ban them for FFP if they qualify next season that won't be so funny. Except for Liverpool fans?

Worth checking their losses vs UEFA's acceptable limits. Hope UEFA clamp down if they enter with big overspend. @southvillekiddy £111.8m losses in one season albeit over 13 months?

Edited August 6, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous

[southvillekiddy]

22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

When UEFA ban them for FFP if they qualify next season that won't be so funny. Except for Liverpool fans?

Worth checking their losses vs UEFA's acceptable limits. Hope UEFA clamp down if they enter with big overspend. @southvillekiddy £111.8m losses in one season albeit over 13 months?

We'd be spending on one excellent manager and his team, rather than wasting millions on mediocre managers and duff players, or good players who endlessly warm the bench (eg Benkovic, Palmer) as we have done for many years. Big difference. Do you accept that?

Surely what good capitalists do is cash in on a crisis such as Covid rather than run away from it. If our Club has been as well run under SL as you say then he has a golden opportunity. Other Clubs will not be in a position to do what we are well placed to do?

Edited August 6, 2020 by southvillekiddy

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, southvillekiddy said:

We'd be spending on one excellent manager and his team, rather than wasting millions on mediocre managers and duff players, or good players who endlessly warm the bench (eg Benkovic, Palmer) as we have done for many years. Big difference. Do you accept that?

Surely what good capitalists do is cash in on a crisis such as Covid rather than run away from it. If our Club has been as well run under SL as you say then he has a golden opportunity. Other Clubs will not be in a position to do what we are well placed to do?

@Major Isewater too

I get that- it may well be applicable to us and I'd clearly be very disappointed with Holden- was hoping initially for Hughton, Jokanovic and would have been rather happy with Cook- if any high calibre candidates that aren't totally out of view come into range, then add them to the possibles.

Yes, there is that- but the Everton analogy is misleading given regulations not yet totally frozen, merely amended in their case- in ours we still don't know, there could be a wage cap as soon as Friday- how do you sell a £18m divisonal wage cap to Hughton/Jokanovic. Imagine appointing them a few days ago with big promises and then come Friday 6pm, wage cap voted in! Big problems from the off. Unsure how it's been amended at PL level but those losses give them less room moving forward!

Because last I've heard, any wage cap would be in as soon as next season if the clubs decide, needs 16/24 to vote on it- existing contracts would be classed as the average wage worked out for these purposes- in effect frozen in time- but new signings, god knows- appoint this week, big promises which then have to do a total 180- may make a thread on it..

I remember people saying FFP would be scrapped due to Covid but guess what!

Edited August 6, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous

[southvillekiddy]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Major Isewater too

I get that- it may well be applicable to us and I'd clearly be very disappointed with Holden- was hoping initially for Hughton, Jokanovic and would have been rather happy with Cook- if any high calibre candidates that aren't totally out of view come into range, then add them to the possibles.

Yes, there is that- but the Everton analogy is misleading given regulations not yet totally frozen, merely amended in their case- in ours we still don't know, there could be a wage cap as soon as Friday- how do you sell a £18m divisonal wage cap to Hughton/Jokanovic. Imagine appointing them a few days ago with big promises and then come Friday 6pm, wage cap voted in! Big problems from the off. Unsure how it's been amended at PL level but those losses give them less room moving forward!

Because last I've heard, any wage cap would be in as soon as next season- existing contracts would be classed as the average wage worked out for these purposes- in effect frozen in time- but new signings, god knows- appoint this week, big promises- may make a thread on it...

What the Major said was that appointing Ancelotti (Hughton would be our Ancelotti) has transformed the players already there at Everton into winners. Do you agree? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

What the Major said was that appointing Ancelotti (Hughton would be our Ancelotti) has transformed the players already there at Everton into winners. Do you agree? 

Their results and performance level since he took over show a mixed bag tbh, but in due course this may well be the case yeah.

I see what you're getting at- is why I still want one of Hughton, Jokanovic or another A-Lister (for us- and no I don't necessarily mean Gerrard)- and Cook too would be a strong choice IMO.

Top coach can improve and galvanise existing squad- agree, 100%! I suppose a q is whether the salary cap is purely about players or wider. However that notwithstanding fully agree with what you and the Major are getting at.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I should also ask The Major- aka @Major Isewater

https://www.toffeeweb.com/season/19-20/comment/editorial/39753.html

Progressing the club with these finances and quite possibly having to sell just to keep afloat with FFP regs, let alone anything positive- this could be quite a challenge!

I touched upon it and this guy who is an Everton blogger/writer goes quite a bit further. None of it is Ancelotti's fault  he's done okay there- but it might get tougher! Their starting point for this 3 year period to summer 2021 ie the end of this season, and Covid might change matters at PL level like it's been modified at UEFA level and yeah allowable deductions, is a £111.8m loss!! 13 month loss granted, so you divide by 13 then x 12. Worth a read of the above IMO.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous

[havanatopia]

11 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

That's what I was saying a month ago and getting a lot of flack for it. Included in that was the idea that you pay whatever that person needs to accept the job. You don't muck them around as we may well have done with Hughton.

No flack from this qtr kiddy.

Ancelotti is an interesting example. I may have the wrong club but I recall reading his departure from Inter was met with significant relief due to his high spending and boring tactics.

I have heard the same criticism levelled at Hughton.

I have said I would take boring football for a while to get us properly challenging because let's face it we have only really flirted with the playoffs during LJ's tenure only to end up as powder puffs.

To imagine Holden would do any better is frankly laughable. The one quality he lacks without any hint of controversy is gravitas. Hughton has it. Especially young players are hugely motivated by characters they can look up to.

To suggest SL does not get this or is contemplating turning his back on perhaps the one missing attribute of Johnson would be unfathomable.

This is absolutely nothing to do with Covid19 and budgetary restraints. If that is the yarn we will be fed all we have to do is remind everybody of the disparity in prize money between the two divisions... 3 million and 120 million per season... 4 full seasons, effectively, of Lee Johnson is close to a half billion loss of revenue. 

With Steve's financial services background he knows this better than anyone. So it is not exaggeration, at all, to then say it is suicidal to employ a novice. End of story.

P.s. I'll pop this in the Holden thread as well I think folks.

Edited August 7, 2020 by havanatopia

[Major Isewater]

Carlo Ancelotti: Second and smiling - Everton’s ‘Hollywood’ appointment paying off

[Guest]

Buy cheap and hope "This is the way" the Bristol City way. Not the way how-ever to challenge the top clubs in this div or have any chance of progressing to the top division.

We will have a long wait until Steve changes his plan until then its just fulorn hope of what the next transfer window/manager could bring.

Yes we`ve had injuries but even when Weimann was playing there were moans about him on here "just runs around alot" or Patterson "inconsistant, no effort, etc" we need to step up a grade in managers and players if we are to make the jump up.

This will mean SL has to dig deeper or we will have to carry on as we are going around and around all safe a nice but going no-where.

Edited December 20, 2020 by glos old boy

[The Batman]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Carlo Ancelotti: Second and smiling - Everton’s ‘Hollywood’ appointment paying off

He is still a top level manager. Everton are incredibly fortunate to have him. With the season going the way it is, wouldn't surprise me if Everton finish in the top 4. Mind you, the top half is so tight at the moment, they were mid table a fortnight ago. 

[tin]

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Carlo Ancelotti: Second and smiling - Everton’s ‘Hollywood’ appointment paying off

Absolutely. It’s not rocket science to appoint the best manager out there and pay the going rate to do that. The rewards far outweigh the risks, especially if those appointments are on short-term deals. If the PL was to end today, Everton would stand to get £36m in prize money for finishing second plus more money for getting into next year’s Champions League group stages and that’s before all the TV money. That more than pays the wages of Ancelotti, for example. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by tin

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, tin said:

Absolutely. It’s not rocket science to appoint the best manager out there and pay the going rate to do that. The rewards far outweigh the risks, especially if those appointments are on short-term deals. If the PL was to end today, Everton would stand to get £36m in prize money for finishing second plus more money for getting into next year’s Champions League group stages and that’s before all the TV money. That more than pays the wages of Ancelotti, for example. 

You only have to look at Leeds to see what a top coach can do to improve players.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Carlo Ancelotti: Second and smiling - Everton’s ‘Hollywood’ appointment paying off

Won't be when FFP kicks in at the end of this season, with UEFA anyway.

3 hours ago, glos old boy said:

Buy cheap and hope "This is the way" the Bristol City way. Not the way how-ever to challenge the top clubs in this div or have any chance of progressing to the top division.

We will have a long wait until Steve changes his plan until then its just fulorn hope of what the next transfer window/manager could bring.

Yes we`ve had injuries but even when Weimann was playing there were moans about him on here "just runs around alot" or Patterson "inconsistant, no effort, etc" we need to step up a grade in managers and players if we are to make the jump up.

This will mean SL has to dig deeper or we will have to carry on as we are going around and around all safe a nice but going no-where.

I'm going to post a thread later on where we're at with finances and potential goals by current situation, how much financial headroom do we have? Unsure.

This doesn't even factor in the ongoing monitoring clubs get at our level.

2 hours ago, tin said:

Absolutely. It’s not rocket science to appoint the best manager out there and pay the going rate to do that. The rewards far outweigh the risks, especially if those appointments are on short-term deals. If the PL was to end today, Everton would stand to get £36m in prize money for finishing second plus more money for getting into next year’s Champions League group stages and that’s before all the TV money. That more than pays the wages of Ancelotti, for example. 

Haven't read the UEFA FFP? 30m euros plus allowable costs per 3 years the limit.

Wolves got a settlement agreement despite Covid off the back of 3 years to 2019. Losses lower than Everton by far. Lille got one too, think theirs was harsher on account of higher losses.

Dunno if pandemic will cloud UEFA thinking but chunks of CL prize money can be withheld as part of the settlement, only released when compliance proven.

34 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

You only have to look at Leeds to see what a top coach can do to improve players.

One of the most respected coaches around, cited by many at top clubs. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous

[tin]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Haven't read the UEFA FFP? 30m euros plus allowable costs per 3 years the limit.

I haven’t, no. Far too technical for me and I don’t fully understand it. That said, I don’t think it’s unrealistic for a club of our stature to allocate a large chunk of our budget towards paying a manager who’s been there and done it, and let them choose which players within that budget they want to sign. 

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One of the most respected coaches around, cited by many at top clubs. 

Bielsa was also on in excess of £60k p/w last season when Leeds were in the Championship. That gamble clearly paid off, regardless of FFP. Not for a second do I think we could get someone of Bielsa’s stature at little old Bristol City, by the way. I strongly suspect we’ll continue to shop for managers in Poundland while the current board is in place and we’ll continue to go round and round on the pitch as a result. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

34 minutes ago, tin said:

I haven’t, no. Far too technical for me and I don’t fully understand it. That said, I don’t think it’s unrealistic for a club of our stature to allocate a large chunk of our budget towards paying a manager who’s been there and done it, and let them choose which players within that budget they want to sign. 

Bielsa was also on in excess of £60k p/w last season when Leeds were in the Championship. That gamble clearly paid off, regardless of FFP. Not for a second do I think we could get someone of Bielsa’s stature at little old Bristol City, by the way. I strongly suspect we’ll continue to shop for managers in Poundland while the current board is in place and we’ll continue to go round and round on the pitch as a result. 

Tbh you're not missing much! It's quite dry...and long!

For cash and size really, I don't think Bielsa would've been viable.

Agree to a point. Give the manager control, but strictly within budgetary constraints.

I'm not fully against Director of Football model really, it's increasingly common and far from a guaranteed failure. Can be quite successful in fact.

The issue I have with handing control to the manager is if we give a manager carte blanche and it goes wrong, the next manager may want to rip it up. May go round and round in that cycle and then it's especially problematic if each manager has a different tactical mindset.

Often thought Brentford Plus might be our best model but we're a LONG way from Brentford, let alone a Brentford Plus style.

[Mr Popodopolous]

When I was looking up FFP related news I was reminded of this thread. Ancelotti and big spending was the way forward. Until it wasn't.

I was thinking just about the UEFA stuff and their much lower limits but seems Everton are even walking the line domestically. What a difference 12-18 months makes, Benitez's hands are tied somewhat.

https://www.goodisonnews.com/2021/12/05/everton-approach-premier-league-to-enquire-about-january-ffp-limits/

I mean looking at their losses it's no great surprise but even saw one report that said they had to raise £30-35m in Transfer profits just to hit FFP targets ie £30-35m above clearly, that's before any investment etc.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Southport Red]

On 25/06/2020 at 08:07, Packman said:

Any ideas? I would suggest top coaches wouldn't be interested in Bristol City, we're not a big club. Bristol Bears are in the premiership, and I'm guessing have one on the best budgets in the league, you can't really compare the two.

Bears appointed Lamb when they were in the Championship. 

[Major Isewater]

On 25/06/2020 at 08:06, Major Isewater said:

Get the best coach available and look what happens with the same squad of players.

This was the key sentence for me . Not spending vast sums on players. 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

This was the key sentence for me . Not spending vast sums on players. 

Spending vast sums on players isn't an issue provided you buy the right ones, just ask Man City.

Now the best part of £13m on Ashley Williams days before his 32nd birthday or £30m+ on Bollasie, that's 'Ashton in The Premier' levels of squander.....

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Southport Red said:

Bears appointed Lamb when they were in the Championship. 

Totally different economy of scale etc. Although I dunno if any salary restraints exist in that way in the Rugby Championship.

 

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

This was the key sentence for me . Not spending vast sums on players. 

Yeah that's a good plan in general. It is though possible that in this specific case part of the reason for Ancelotti leaving was FFP. Could also be the approach from Real Madridof course!

[Ron W]

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

This was the key sentence for me . Not spending vast sums on players. 

Well, we got one who's 'been there and done it', gave him peanuts to spend, and...