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Watching mostly PL on television recently. It certainly looks as if a lot of players are bigger and stronger than those at City. Whilst appreciating that this is not the only asset players need don’t you think that we could do with some Muscle in the team?

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1 minute ago, Bob Thompson said:

Watching mostly PL on television recently. It certainly looks as if a lot of players are bigger and stronger than those at City. Whilst appreciating that this is not the only asset players need don’t you think that we could do with some Muscle in the team?

Muscle in midfield without a doubt.

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We’ve known this for years. 

Yet LJ - who is promoted as being a young, cutting-edge coach - just keeps looking back to the days he ‘dominated’ midfield and deploys a midfield of mini-me’s.

He’s blind to the trends in the game. 

 

Rugby went through the renaissance from fat lards to finely-tuned ‘power’ athletes a few years ago. Fortunately, Bristol appointed a coach that identified the new trend and embraced change. 

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6 hours ago, RedRock said:

We’ve known this for years. 

Yet LJ - who is promoted as being a young, cutting-edge coach - just keeps looking back to the days he ‘dominated’ midfield and deploys a midfield of mini-me’s.

He’s blind to the trends in the game. 

 

Rugby went through the renaissance from fat lards to finely-tuned ‘power’ athletes a few years ago. Fortunately, Bristol appointed a coach that identified the new trend and embraced change. 

Out of interest.

Could you define players you deem as physically ideal for midfield? Set some parameters- could be genuinely interesting, not least for comparison sake.

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Not sure physicality is the only solution. Talking of midfielders, off the top of my head, some of the championship recent best are hardly ‘physical’ as a key attribute:

Bannan

Cairney

Hernandez

Benrahma

Phillips

Bowen 

Knockaert

Grealish

Norwood

To name a few...

Two of our most recent top scorers, Bobby and Tammy, again, hardly all physicality. Work rate for Bobby yes, and he made the best of what he had, but not dominant physically. 

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Yes... but, for me, what made Bobby and Joe was that Summer where they went to that gym and added extra power and stamina. Plus they were high performers in that 6-7 month period from the start of the season - coinciding with our good league/cup run. 

In my view, unless you are a class apart skill-wise, a sub 6’ ‘average’ lightweight will always be bossed by a 6’ ‘average’ power machine at our level. The problem we have is LJ plays too many pretty average lightweights and even the better ones are inconsistent, so will be ‘bossed’ more times than not. 

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12 hours ago, RedRock said:

We’ve known this for years. 

Yet LJ - who is promoted as being a young, cutting-edge coach - just keeps looking back to the days he ‘dominated’ midfield and deploys a midfield of mini-me’s.

He’s blind to the trends in the game. 

 

Rugby went through the renaissance from fat lards to finely-tuned ‘power’ athletes a few years ago. Fortunately, Bristol appointed a coach that identified the new trend and embraced change. 

Technique and aerobic performance.

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1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

Not sure physicality is the only solution. Talking of midfielders, off the top of my head, some of the championship recent best are hardly ‘physical’ as a key attribute:

Bannan

Cairney

Hernandez

Benrahma

Phillips

Bowen 

Knockaert

Grealish

Norwood

To name a few...

Two of our most recent top scorers, Bobby and Tammy, again, hardly all physicality. Work rate for Bobby yes, and he made the best of what he had, but not dominant physically. 

Bannan will have a field day on Sunday, should have signed him

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55 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

Tall big what? Liverpool are not top ten in the premier for height they are 16th!!

Yes, but players like Milner are real physical ‘powerhouse’ units with the added benefit of ability, a shot and consistency.

 

LJ, I’m sure, keeps referencing these top 6 Premier teams comparing himself, his team’s to Pep, Klopp and ‘the Special One’. We are in a different league, where different attributes count. He just doesn’t get it. He’s trying to build an F1 car to race around a banger circuit. Horses for courses and all that. Warnock ‘gets it’, think ‘Mad Mick’ does as well. 

You will get the occasional top skill, lightweight teams that make it from the Championship. Swansea may be an example... but that’s associated with a manager at the top of his game,  3/4 exceptional players and a team that ‘gels’, where one’s weakness is covered by another’s strength. We ain't got anything approaching that. 

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1 hour ago, Three Lions said:

Tall big what? Liverpool are not top ten in the premier for height they are 16th!!

Look at the main midfield 3 though. All strong players. We def lack physicality. We are weak.

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Technique and aerobic performance.

Name me one of our midfield players that is a ‘class apart’ from any other in the Championship.

Just one will do. 

 

Infact, I’ll give you the entire squad to choose from.

We haven’t any. Hence we get dominated by more physical teams....Blackburn, Reading, Millwall.....teams, which if we were serious contenders, we should not necessarily be out-gunning on the basis of LJs philosophy, but out-skilling. We ain’t nowhere near it and in my view, unless we have a massive stroke of luck in the transfer market or player development, will never achieve it with a team of mini-me’s /busy bees. 

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26 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Yes, but players like Milner are real physical ‘powerhouse’ units with the added benefit of ability, a shot and consistency.

 

LJ, I’m sure, keeps referencing these top 6 Premier teams comparing himself, his team’s to Pep, Klopp and ‘the Special One’. We are in a different league, where different attributes count. He just doesn’t get it. He’s trying to build an F1 car to race around a banger circuit. Horses for courses and all that. Warnock ‘gets it’, think ‘Mad Mick’ does as well. 

You will get the occasional top skill, lightweight teams that make it from the Championship. Swansea may be an example... but that’s associated with a manager at the top of his game,  3/4 exceptional players and a team that ‘gels’, where one’s weakness is covered by another’s strength. We ain't got anything approaching that. 

James Milner is an outlier in terms of athletism- it's aerobic element.  He is exceptional in a squad of exceptional athletes.

its a different skill set. M

Famara is physical he would not be able to do the yards. His recovery is not up to standard. 

Liverpool are based upon endurance athletes . Endurance and recovery = power. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Name me one of our midfield players that is a ‘class apart’ from any other in the Championship.

Just one will do. 

 

Infact, I’ll give you the entire squad to choose from.

We haven’t any. Hence we get dominated by more physical teams....Blackburn, Reading, Millwall.....teams, which if we were serious contenders, we should not necessarily be out-gunning on the basis of LJs philosophy, but out-skilling. We ain’t nowhere near it and in my view, unless we have a massive stroke of luck in the transfer market or player development, will never achieve it with a team of mini-me’s /busy bees. 

Define what you want? Passing? Breaking lines? Running? Tackling? Work rate? 

What is the team need and work from there. 

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15 hours ago, Bob Thompson said:

Watching mostly PL on television recently. It certainly looks as if a lot of players are bigger and stronger than those at City. Whilst appreciating that this is not the only asset players need don’t you think that we could do with some Muscle in the team?

....and yet people are bemoaning Massengo’s fouls on Saturday.  Don’t get me wrong, it was a bit frustrating, but imagine that was us at home to Preston and Pearson did the same.  We’d probably be saying there he goes, breaking up any momentum, etc.  Pearson would’ve probably escaped a yellow too!

Don’t get me wrong the fouls were probably too close to our box in reality.....but the point is only one of our players was getting his foot in.  The desire (or lack of it) from some others was scandalous!  That is what is lacking, rather than size.

Not forgetting anticipation, how often are certain players bypassed by a touch or a pass....it’s often because they’re too slow in closing in the first place.  They are the “I almost got there, Boss” players, the ones who look like they’re working hard but aren’t.

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38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

....and yet people are bemoaning Massengo’s fouls on Saturday.  Don’t get me wrong, it was a bit frustrating, but imagine that was us at home to Preston and Pearson did the same.  We’d probably be saying there he goes, breaking up any momentum, etc.  Pearson would’ve probably escaped a yellow too!

Don’t get me wrong the fouls were probably too close to our box in reality.....but the point is only one of our players was getting his foot in.  The desire (or lack of it) from some others was scandalous!  That is what is lacking, rather than size.

Not forgetting anticipation, how often are certain players bypassed by a touch or a pass....it’s often because they’re too slow in closing in the first place.  They are the “I almost got there, Boss” players, the ones who look like they’re working hard but aren’t.

...but the idea is you get a strong tackle in without fouling. Use your body strength to unsettle and win the ball fairly.

It’s fine margins.

Clever players stay just on the right side of the law.

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On 26/06/2020 at 10:53, Davefevs said:

....and yet people are bemoaning Massengo’s fouls on Saturday.  Don’t get me wrong, it was a bit frustrating, but imagine that was us at home to Preston and Pearson did the same.  We’d probably be saying there he goes, breaking up any momentum, etc.  Pearson would’ve probably escaped a yellow too!

Don’t get me wrong the fouls were probably too close to our box in reality.....but the point is only one of our players was getting his foot in.  The desire (or lack of it) from some others was scandalous!  That is what is lacking, rather than size.

Not forgetting anticipation, how often are certain players bypassed by a touch or a pass....it’s often because they’re too slow in closing in the first place.  They are the “I almost got there, Boss” players, the ones who look like they’re working hard but aren’t.

As its topical. Liverpool. Their football necessitates players can constantly close the opposition down and press. Its not a question of size, they are recruiting players in key areas that not only are quick (explosive movements) to close the opposition down but they are also quick to recover. Players recovery post explosive movement can be improved obviously by training but it is also innate leading to wide differences in athletic endurance ability. 

Too slow can be they can't physically do consistently what the football requires. 

 

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12 hours ago, Cowshed said:

As its topical. Liverpool. Their football necessitates players can constantly close the opposition down and press. Its not a question of size, they are recruiting players in key areas that not only are quick (explosive movements) to close the opposition down but they are also quick to recover. Players recovery post explosive movement can be improved obviously by training but it is also innate leading to wide differences in athletic endurance ability. 

Too slow can be they can't physically do consistently what the football requires. 

 

Ok... but then opposition managers tend to target Dasilva, who I suspect meets the explosive movement/recovery criteria, because of his size due to vulnerability to balls flighted behind him.

 Seemingly, a worry for LJ that leads to Jay being replaced against certain teams by the likes of Rowe. 

 

Do we really think a team containing six or more of Dasilva, Massengo, Walsh, Smith, Morrell, Hunt, Nagy, CoD, Elliason and Pato - all of whom, I suspect, would be in our Top 12 for recovery, speed, explosive tests could form the core of a team to compete for promotion in the Championship. Unlikely in my view. 

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24 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Ok... but then opposition managers tend to target Dasilva, who I suspect meets the explosive movement/recovery criteria, because of his size due to vulnerability to balls flighted behind him.

 Seemingly, a worry for LJ that leads to Jay being replaced against certain teams by the likes of Rowe. 

 

Do we really think a team containing five or six of Dasilva, Walsh, Smith, Morrell, Hunt, Nagy, CoD, Elliason and Pato - all of whom, I suspect, would be in our Top 10 for recovery, speed, explosive tests could form the core of a team to compete in the Championship. Unlikely in my view. 

Earlier I asked. Define what you want? Passing? Breaking lines? Running? Tackling? Work rate? What is the team need and work from there. 

If your football vision is high lines and pressing in units then the answer to your question is yes.

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48 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Earlier I asked. Define what you want? Passing? Breaking lines? Running? Tackling? Work rate? What is the team need and work from there. 

If your football vision is high lines and pressing in units then the answer to your question is yes.

Ok playing devil’s advocate - high lines and pressing - which, I assume, is what LJ is trying to achieve.

The fact the players, seemingly, have abandoned the ‘high lines and press’ approach on the field appears a mystery to us all at the moment. I assume from your response that if we don’t employ that approach, you’d agree we’re in trouble with our ‘lightweight midfield’?

 

Certainly, if I was the Shrewsbury Town manager, or any other side with reasonably competent set of ‘powerful physical units’ in midfield, I’d just love to take on a midfield selected from that set of names. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, RedRock said:

Ok playing devil’s advocate - high lines and pressing - which, I assume, is what LJ is trying to achieve.

The fact the players, seemingly, have abandoned the ‘high lines and press’ approach on the field appears a mystery to us all at the moment. I assume from your response that if we don’t employ that approach, you’d agree we’re in trouble with our ‘lightweight midfield’?

 

Certainly, if I was the Shrewsbury Town manager, or any other side with reasonably competent set of ‘powerful physical units’ in midfield, I’d just love to take on a midfield selected from that set of names. 

 

 

Mr Johnson is not attempting to achieve high lines and pressing. His team use a medium block, frequently screen and generally are not a fast pressing team. The players didn't abandon high pressing Mr Johnson did. Its is not a mystery. If we have a fair cursory look at City's players like Famara or Palmer or Eliason and think about the skills needed (pressing profiles) including these players would be problematic. 

I was answering your point about trends in the game. Its a fact over decades football has become more technical. Its a fact football has become more physical. That physicality is not tacking as players are tackling less, physicality is they are running more, much more. Football has also become more tactical, and technical ability in players feeds tactical flexibility.

Hence my answer to your point -. Technique and aerobic performance are the trends in the game.

I would like to see City employ an extra player in midfield. I would like to see the team press more screen less. I would like to see the team pass the ball more efficiently. That would not be resolved by stature alone. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Mr Johnson is not attempting to achieve high lines and pressing. His team use a medium block, frequently screen and generally are not a fast pressing team. The players didn't abandon high pressing Mr Johnson did. Its is not a mystery. If we have a fair cursory look at City's players like Famara or Palmer or Eliason and think about the skills needed (pressing profiles) including these players would be problematic. 

I was answering your point about trends in the game. Its a fact over decades football has become more technical. Its a fact football has become more physical. That physicality is not tacking as players are tackling less, physicality is they are running more, much more. Football has also become more tactical, and technical ability in players feeds tactical flexibility.

Hence my answer to your point -. Technique and aerobic performance are the trends in the game.

I would like to see City employ an extra player in midfield. I would like to see the team press more screen less. I would like to see the team pass the ball more efficiently. That would not be resolved by stature alone. 

 

I would like to see the ball go into the opposition’s net more often and onto our net less often!

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It's no coincidence we've a shortage of taller stronger players, these are more highly-valued and in most cases beyond our budget. We can get taller players but then they will likely have less skill (think Marley Watkins), we also have a bias to young players who are generally less physical, or when they develop physically they are wanted by bigger clubs (eg Lloyd Kelly and Taylor Moore may go the same way). By going for less physical players we get a higher skill level (eg Jay Dasilva) which we could not afford otherwise. 

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12 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

It's no coincidence we've a shortage of taller stronger players, these are more highly-valued and in most cases beyond our budget. We can get taller players but then they will likely have less skill (think Marley Watkins), we also have a bias to young players who are generally less physical, or when they develop physically they are wanted by bigger clubs (eg Lloyd Kelly and Taylor Moore may go the same way). By going for less physical players we get a higher skill level (eg Jay Dasilva) which we could not afford otherwise. 

You say we have players with high skill levels then why don’t we see that in games?.

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