Klopp - how he did it. Don't read the thread if you are not ambitious for Bristol City

[Red-Robbo]

2 hours ago, Red Exile said:

Great OP @southvillekiddy.

and this is spot on - the devotion to LJ baffles me. Achieved next to nothing in his brief managerial career and despite resources his predecessors could only dream of doesn't look like achieving much in the future, if last Saturday's fiasco and his recent press comments are anything to go by. 

Time to invest in better managerial and coaching staff.

 

Not sure it's entirely fair comparing resources. Yes, predecessors never got them - but football has never been more expensive. The rate of player prices, player wages and payments to agents has soared vastly above general inflation. 

You NEED huge resources now to compete in the Championship.

I think I read here recently, that we have the 14th biggest budget in the division, so maybe being where we are is an achievement.

On the topic of Lee Johnson, I'm a "well he's here for the rest of the season, let's see what he does" man.  I think Lansdown will want to see improvement on last season, which is a minimum requirement really. People I know who knew Lansdown in business tell me he was quite prepared to be ruthless to get what he wants. If our season continues to slide, I'd be hoping he kept that instinct.

[LondonBristolian]

I think it is unfair to compare us to Liverpool and, when Klopp joined, they were already a much bigger and more prestigious club relative to their respective division than we are. Even taking differences of level into account, we don’t have the same pulling power to attract the best players from the Championship or beyond. 

At the same time, there are three things Klopp has done that I really wish LJ would do and that I think are achievable:

1) make a definitive decision on how we want to play, both in terms of shape and style.

2) only sign players that fit the formation and type of football we plan to play 

3) sign players that will slot into that system rather than players that need 12 - 18 months to adapt to it.

I do think those three things alone would make a huge difference.

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think it is unfair to compare us to Liverpool and, when Klopp joined, they were already a much bigger and more prestigious club relative to their respective division than we are. Even taking differences of level into account, we don’t have the same pulling power to attract the best players from the Championship or beyond. 

At the same time, there are three things Klopp has done that I really wish LJ would do and that I think are achievable:

1) make a definitive decision on how we want to play, both in terms of shape and style.

2) only sign players that fit the formation and type of football we plan to play 

3) sign players that will slot into that system rather than players that need 12 - 18 months to adapt to it.

I do think those three things alone would make a huge difference.

 Not doing #3 is one of my biggest quibbles with Johnson.  There's a bit of a kid in a candy store sort of approach to players he brings in, rather than a logical plan of what to do with them. 

[LondonBristolian]

4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 Not doing #3 is one of my biggest quibbles with Johnson.  There's a bit of a kid in a candy store sort of approach to players he brings in, rather than a logical plan of what to do with them. 

I agree with that but I also think there is self-aggrandising mystique that players need to work and study for 12 - 18 months to learn the “Lee Johnson way”.

I’m sceptical about how true that is at the best of times but it is particularly galling with players like Kalas, Palmer and Nagy who seem bereft of confidence, confused and uncertain about what is expected of them to a far greater degree than they did when they first joined us.

 

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, LondonBristolian said:

I agree with that but I also think there is self-aggrandising mystique that players need to work and study for 12 - 18 months to learn the “Lee Johnson way”.

I’m sceptical about how true that is at the best of times but it is particularly galling with players like Kalas, Palmer and Nagy who seem bereft of confidence, confused and uncertain about what is expected of them to a far greater degree than they did when they first joined us.

 

 I think sometimes with coaching,  less is more. 

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I agree with that but I also think there is self-aggrandising mystique that players need to work and study for 12 - 18 months to learn the “Lee Johnson way”.

I’m sceptical about how true that is at the best of times but it is particularly galling with players like Kalas, Palmer and Nagy who seem bereft of confidence, confused and uncertain about what is expected of them to a far greater degree than they did when they first joined us.

 

Quite simply....no system should be so intricate to require x weeks / y training sessions to get to grips with it.  I do think, like you, that LJ wants to create a mystique around his tactical systems, when in fact simplicity is what you need.  I’ve said more than once this week the reason players like Palmer cost x million is because they are good.  They do need a framework, a discipline, but they also have to be able to use the football skills they’ve developed since an early age.  LJ is self indulgent.

I know it’s only one game back, but I’ve lost patience.

[Chappers]

And another thread... No great problem with LJ, from where he took over we have progressed immensely, been competitive at Championship level over a number of seasons, had some great times, and developed a number of young players. Sadly, rather too many signings this season that have not delivered, particularly in midfield.

Might be time for a change, might not, new managers come with no guarantees.

[Oh Louie louie]

What kid said about the signings, too true.

Take out wells and afobe, this year, only one been value is tommy rowe.

One of the new signings behaviour before the shrewsbury game was terrible,

Any manager worth his salt wouldnt have put up with that.

Instead, he puts him in the team, caving in to a agents pressure.

Signings get you sacked.

[oldstandrobin]

11 hours ago, CodeRed said:

The answer is staring us in the face. Bristol Bears, stuck in the Championship choking promotion every season, best players cherry picked by the PL, managed by the nice  media friendly Andy Robinson and going nowhere. 

SL hires Pat Lam - proven winner, dragged Connaught from rural backwater to European cup success. Former All Black, top coach he talkes you listen. Totally turned them around, they will I'm sure win the Premiership within 3 years, attracted top world class players happy to be coached by him Pitau etc.  Same ground as City, Same training ground development, same owner,   listen to Lam, if they lose he knows what went wrong how to put it right and they come back. No giggling no silly jokes or excuses- he gets it done he wins players want to be coached by him.

 

That's it. Can be done, SL has done it with rugby.  So why the LJ obsession?

By far the most sensible and direct to the point post this season 

[Dr Balls]

People in Liverpool are obsessed with football because their teams have been successful and now they expect success. And the clubs are successful in part because they have an obsessive following. And while the blue half of Liverpool might live in their shadow somewhat, they have still won a European trophy, plus lots of domestic silverware.

If Liverpool had to put up with us and the Blue Few as their teams for the last 100 years, there wouldn’t be much enthusiasm for football up there either. And things have only got worse in the past 30 years with the big divide between the Premier League and the rest.

A more appropriate comparison for Bristol would be Nottingham. And you can say Clough was a genius and an exception, but even before him, Forest had won the FA cup in the 50s. And though they have slipped in the past 20 years, they still have expectations of achieving something. Instead we have spent long periods of the last 100 years languishing in Division 3 South with occasional visits to the Second Division, and one brief interlude in the top flight. Not too much inspiration there. And in fact our best season recently was still in the 3rd Division!

[Oh Louie louie]

Notts county were in the prem in the 90s.

I would say we couldnt match nottinghams football tradition.

In cups won, and crowd sizes seasons in top flight. not a chance.

Both teams in nottingham could pull in 20000 easy.

[Oh Louie louie]

In todays terms, dr i agree, not much in it.

But notts county are linked to juventus.

Can you imagine the juve chairmen ringing wally, saying hello, we liked one of your shirts, do you have snackboxes phone number!

 

[Robbored]

10 hours ago, CodeRed said:

Since I posted about Bristol Bears and Pat Lam on this thread I got around to reading the pre Sheff W LJ press conference.  It sums up in one article just how far away from the competence and professionalism LJ is from Pat Lam. Literally not a clue. Didn't know what went wrong, why we lost or how to put it right,  said for the umpteenth time ' the preparation was perfect'  ( no it wasn't, we played poorly - your training your selection your tactics you're the motivator ) he said we would prepare the same ( why ? It didn't work last time) - maybe change the selection ( ie bring back the most experienced pros Watkins Williams etc and hope they can sort it out for you)  anything else? ' well I noticed several players were wearing pink boots....I saw a lot of pink out there ( Jesus Christ what a Muppet....pink boots - that'll be it then pink boots - that's why we lost !

Big difference between rugby and football CR .... but if you listen to both Lam and LJ they both use very similar vernacular.

Not long after Lam joined I was watching the Bears with some rugby mates at my buddies house. Bears won that day and Lam was interviewed post match and I was amazed at the vocabulary and phraseology he was using - it could have been LJ.

I mentioned this and one buddy reckoned that it was Bristol Sport speak and that SL wants all his managers to adopt the same kind of vernacular.

[alexukhc]

56 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Notts county were in the prem in the 90s.

What year was that? 

[Oh Louie louie]

Early 90s alex.

Pretty sure they came up from the old third with us, then got to the prem, in 91 0r 92 maybe?

Warnock was the guvnor.

[pongo88]

9 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 I think sometimes with coaching,  less is more. 

Ah, the Harry Rednapp school of coaching definitely does work. An example was the match a few years ago when Spurs went a goal down against Liverpool but staged a comeback to win 2-1. The winner was scored by Pavlyuchenko

 When asked what he said  to Pavlyuchenko at half-time, Rednapp said:  "Not a lot he doesn't speak English, he's got an interpreter." What did he tell the interpreter? "I just told him to tell Pavlyuchenko to ******* run around a bit. The boy himself just kept nodding his head. He might be thinking inside: 'What's this tosser saying to me?'"

[Sniper]

10 hours ago, JonDolman said:

The players were too aroused.

I blame the boots, slipping into something pink, #banpinkboots

[Portland Bill]

I just can’t believe people are comparing us to Liverpool. 

As a city Liverpool is on a different planet football wise to us.

I definitely get the manager/ coach element though, as a club we have alway s settled for a coach that has played or coached in the division we are in. Why?, why when the club is striving to get to the next level wouldn’t you bring in someone who has played or coached at the level you are trying to get to. We all know the Premier is a level above us, so why not tap into the better knowledge of how to do things at the higher level.

LJ can say all he wants about preparing the team perfectly, but how does he know, there is obviously another level of preparation, one which he has doesn’t know about, because he has never been privy to it. 

The time has come for us to get a tried and tested ‘proper’ manager who has experienced the higher level,, someone who doesn’t throw his players under a bus on a weekly basis. Experience and know how counts, in this league. 

 

 

[The Coach]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Big difference between rugby and football CR .... but if you listen to both Lam and LJ they both use very similar vernacular.

Not long after Lam joined I was watching the Bears with some rugby mates at my buddies house. Bears won that day and Lam was interviewed post match and I was amazed at the vocabulary and phraseology he was using - it could have been LJ.

I mentioned this and one buddy reckoned that it was Bristol Sport speak and that SL wants all his managers to adopt the same kind of vernacular.

You obviously don’t watch much rugby then. PL speaks nothing like LJ.

[cidered abroad]

12 minutes ago, Redpool said:

You obviously don’t watch much rugby then. PL speaks nothing like LJ.

And he clearly hasn't watched Bristol playing exciting, attacking, running rugby. The sort that puts bums on seats even if they stand up as the excitement grows. 

Win, lose or draw, I come away from AG with a buzz after a Bears match. Haven't had the same feeling at City games for at least two years.

[grifty]

I'm not massively into rugby, so can some give an example of the football equivalent of Pat Lam? Is he a Pep Guardiola or a Warnock level of reputation and success?

[Oh Louie louie]

We could get, Sir clive woodward in to keep the bears fans happy.

Had a job in the premiership after all.

 

[southvillekiddy]

12 hours ago, Calculus said:

Oh, sorry if i did give that impression. I am certain we can be a stable Prem club and even looked to the likes of Burnley and Shefield United. Where I depart is in comparing Bristol and Liverpool as football cities. That doesn't mean we'd be third rate - Liverpool is a football obsessed city and Liverpool FC a World class club. You could say that if we are below LFC we wouldn't be first rate, but for your sake please don't go there - you'd be a disappointed man for tbe rest of your life!

For what it's worth I think Bristol.and it's surrounds are fantastic - far too many good things going on for people to be just obsessed with football. Maybe that's the problem.

Sorry to say this mate but all too frequently on here I find that people don't thoroughly read what is written. I didn't start by comparing Bristol to Liverpool as footballing centres, at least obviously not in present times.

However we have enormous potential and it has to be said that both Liverpool and Manchester City have spent substantial periods out of the top flight.

My main point was Liverpool and other top Premiership have achieved what they have  "by hiring the best, specialist team of foreign coaches who have proven their worth in the top flight of other countries".

eg. Liverpool have Jurgen Klopp and his top-flight specialist team, ..................(where as we have Gary Johnson's son!)

So again I'm sorry to say that according to my list of the unambitious City fan you fall into the category of the "over-literal". And now you've got all the others at it saying I'm comparing BCFC to LFC in present terms.

My point is : why can't/won't our billionaire owner sell the potential of our Club in the 6th biggest city in England to a top flight foreign Head Coach and his specialist staff?

I would hate to think that we are forever condemned to mediocrity in the sleepy West Country as your concluding sentences suggest

[southvillekiddy]

16 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

Well we had Sean O'Driscoll, and Sean is an Irish name like Brendan, and as was pointed out, we both have issues at left back.

JK/LJ both have a J in there......

Christ! We've almost cracked it!

Get LJ some glasses and we'll have Korey slipping on turf at Stamford in no time.

Made I laugh mate.

[soultrader]

15 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

Please, not him again. The next HC at City must not be related in any way, be related to the Johnson family.

We need a fresh outlook on football tactics.

Orrrr .... SL might emply GJ as Director of Football ....    

[southvillekiddy]

15 hours ago, The Bard said:

 

This was knobs on.  Flashing in neon.

Could it be that he realised he didn't really know Rugby and that this bloke was clearly top notch and so he can hire him and let him get on with it.

With football I don't think he really trusts anyone.  He knows enough and has a son who thinks he knows a lot.  That is not the environment for having a dominant character as manager.   

Totally agree mate. Spot on. SL is our benefactor and biggest obstacle.

[Major Isewater]

16 hours ago, Prinny said:

We have one left back (Dasilva) with Rowe who can cover... 

Brendan Rogers was the manager who sold Suarez.

Suarez bit off more than he could chew whilst at Liverpool.

[The Journalist]

14 hours ago, CodeRed said:

Since I posted about Bristol Bears and Pat Lam on this thread I got around to reading the pre Sheff W LJ press conference.  It sums up in one article just how far away from the competence and professionalism LJ is from Pat Lam. Literally not a clue. Didn't know what went wrong, why we lost or how to put it right,  said for the umpteenth time ' the preparation was perfect'  ( no it wasn't, we played poorly - your training your selection your tactics you're the motivator ) he said we would prepare the same ( why ? It didn't work last time) - maybe change the selection ( ie bring back the most experienced pros Watkins Williams etc and hope they can sort it out for you)  anything else? ' well I noticed several players were wearing pink boots....I saw a lot of pink out there ( Jesus Christ what a Muppet....pink boots - that'll be it then pink boots - that's why we lost !)

He just embarrassing now, complete and utter ****

Not going to dragged into the name calling etc, think it’s a bit pathetic personally, but the preparation point you make is interesting.

I’d have really questioned taking the players up to Blackburn the day before and the 24-hour build-up they were treated to.

Undoubtedly it sounded ultra professional and inch perfect in theory, but it also sounded quite clinical to me.

Would I rather spend the night before the game at home in a comfortable environment and get the coach or, perhaps, even fly up on the morning of the game or go up the previous day and have no real human contact the evening before in a completely unfamiliar and foreign environment?

I don’t know, it’s easy to pick holes with hindsight, but these are people living through the same anxieties, worries and mental health concerns as the rest of us. It sounds like we treated them more like robots to me.

[The Coach]

2 hours ago, grifty said:

I'm not massively into rugby, so can some give an example of the football equivalent of Pat Lam? Is he a Pep Guardiola or a Warnock level of reputation and success?

Like a Mourinho Klopp mix in my view 

[DC10]

The comparison to the bears isn’t exactly fair. It’s like saying you can get a top of the range push bike for £10k but a top of the range car is £250k. 
Piutau is one of the highest earning in the Premiership  (if not the highest) yet City have at least 8 players earning more than him already. I’m sure that’s the same for coaching staff, SL can’t just go out and get a Guardiola or Mourinho without breaking FFP let alone sign the players too. 
If there were loopholes in football (like no FFP in the Championship) like there is with the salary cap in rugby I’m sure SL would be a little more comfortable splashing the cash.