We have never been all that "easy on the eye" or terribly exciting

[Bristol Oil Services]

....whilst competing at this level, or the one above.

Other than 1905/6 and 1906/7, we have only set the football world alight with attacking flair, over a sustained period, whilst mullering "the likes of" Walsall, Gillingham, or some other minnows in the less challenging surroundings of L1 or Division Three, as was.

Terry Cooper and Danny Wilson could attack lower division opposition with a degree of abandon because at that level we were a big fish and had sufficient clout. And a relatively big crowd behind us.

Ok, Brentford for one, are showing what can be done with limited funds, but LJ isn't significantly less entertaining than previous City managers at this level or the one above. We have pretty much always been fairly pragmatic and unexciting - to the undevoted and neutral, at least - in the highest company, finding goals hard to come by, and finding it necessary to find simple ways to win and survive before giving any thought to cutting a dash.

No-one outside of Bristol remembers City from 76 - 80 for style and entertaining football. 

The 75/6 team are remembered very fondly by those that were there and had the thrill of winning and being promoted but they were not a team that sit in the imaginations of any supporters of other clubs (unlike, say, the Ipswich team of Bobby Robson) around the country.

If Lee's team is dull but top half of this division he is doing fairly well when compared to his predecessors at this level of football. I would suggest.

I appreciate this will not go down well with old 'uns that were there and remember 75/6 but I don't think they are necessarily the best qualified to speak without bias of the style and attacking flair of that era when compared to other teams back then. They were 15 to 25 years old at the time, drunk on life/having a punch up in the East end and couldn't give a fug about the quality of entertainment/were cidered up every week/couldn't see properly because of the pillars.

You can check out how many goals we scored back then, to get some idea. 

Johnson's 2017/18 team is up there with the best in our history, and most enjoyable (bearing in mind the level of competition) I would contest. 

Just some thoughts on the entertainment value currently (which I admit has been dismal this season). Johnson needs a stroke of luck/genius as happened with Bobby Reid and it could all get interesting again. Either that, or conjure a run of positive results which covers many sins.

We ought to beat Sheffield Wednesday this weekend, anyway, and our games against them have been lively of late.

 

[SuperRed]

But I would imagine Johnson has been given relatively much more money and time than previous City managers at this level to be capable of building a squad that can challenge for promotion from this level whilst playing decent football. Instead we’re 4 years on and he has compiled a huge squad and is producing  poor football with no semblance of the “identity” that he speaks of. 
 

You also say that Johnson’s 17/18 team is up there with the best in our history. I would argue that it’s no coincidence that the spine of that team were here before Johnson. 

 

 

[GrahamC]

Think it is arguable that the side Jimmy Lumsden inherited from Joe Jordan was a pretty entertaining one & his subsequent signing of Dziekanowski certainly suggested that he believed in playing that style of football.

I am just old enough to remember the season we got promoted to the top flight under AD, we were a honest, hard working team that had 2 decent strikers but we were a counter attacking side, in truth.

Having said that, what I don’t want is to watch a side playing artless long ball football or in an ultra defensive style but that apart, I’m really not that bothered.

The GJ side that got us to the playoff final was pretty much perfect for me, he got the maximum out of nearly every player & with a work rate & organisation that never left me feeling short changed.

 

[Rich]

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

....whilst competing at this level, or the one above.

Other than 1905/6 and 1906/7, we have only set the football world alight with attacking flair, over a sustained period, whilst mullering "the likes of" Walsall, Gillingham, or some other minnows in the less challenging surroundings of L1 or Division Three, as was.

Terry Cooper and Danny Wilson could attack lower division opposition with a degree of abandon because at that level we were a big fish and had sufficient clout. And a relatively big crowd behind us.

Ok, Brentford for one, are showing what can be done with limited funds, but LJ isn't significantly less entertaining than previous City managers at this level or the one above. We have pretty much always been fairly pragmatic and unexciting - to the undevoted and neutral, at least - in the highest company, finding goals hard to come by, and finding it necessary to find simple ways to win and survive before giving any thought to cutting a dash.

No-one outside of Bristol remembers City from 76 - 80 for style and entertaining football. 

The 75/6 team are remembered very fondly by those that were there and had the thrill of winning and being promoted but they were not a team that sit in the imaginations of any supporters of other clubs (unlike, say, the Ipswich team of Bobby Robson) around the country.

If Lee's team is dull but top half of this division he is doing fairly well when compared to his predecessors at this level of football. I would suggest.

I appreciate this will not go down well with old 'uns that were there and remember 75/6 but I don't think they are necessarily the best qualified to speak without bias of the style and attacking flair of that era when compared to other teams back then. They were 15 to 25 years old at the time, drunk on life/having a punch up in the East end and couldn't give a fug about the quality of entertainment/were cidered up every week/couldn't see properly because of the pillars.

You can check out how many goals we scored back then, to get some idea. 

Johnson's 2017/18 team is up there with the best in our history, and most enjoyable (bearing in mind the level of competition) I would contest. 

Just some thoughts on the entertainment value currently (which I admit has been dismal this season). Johnson needs a stroke of luck/genius as happened with Bobby Reid and it could all get interesting again. Either that, or conjure a run of positive results which covers many sins.

We ought to beat Sheffield Wednesday this weekend, anyway, and our games against them have been lively of late.

 

Ok, I'll bite. You are making comparisons with teams from our past, competing at this level or the one above. We'll start with the one playing in the one above, even though there is nothing to compare it with. To be able to compete at that level and at that time, we had to cut our cloth to pay the wages of players brought in to top up a team which were not good enough to survive. Our youth system which had helped get us there, was abandoned, which proved to be problematic in the future. Some of the players brought in were of top quality and quite entertaining football was played. You refer to the number of goals scored during that period, I'd like to point out that goals for all but the very best teams were quite scarce, it was a much more defense minded game in those days. So not really fair to compare with "Lees" team of today, or any team of todays modern game.

As for comparisons in this division, we've had very few years in reality to compare. I'd argue that Our first season up under Cotterill was more entertaining than at present, even if we were getting beat by the odd goals, I think our attacking play was quite entertaining. Our first term under John Ward was also quite entertaining apart from the results and when Joe Jordan jumped ship, Jimmy Lumsden's side produced some good football. But what you cannot do is compare any of those sides with todays team. The sheer amount of investment in the current crop of players compared to those other sides nullifies any sense in trying to compare.

It's like opening up two fish restaurants. You give one manager a cook, a cleaner, potatoes and fish fingers, to provide a cordon Bleu menu but, end up with fishfingers and chips. The other restaurant manager is given a couple of chefs, two waiters, door staff, a preparation area for all the fresh food, special access to freshly caught sea food such as Scallops, lobster, scampi, and all the white fish you could want, specially brought in vegetables from around the UK but, the menu ends up as cod and chips with gherkin on the side.

[Fpcity]

1 hour ago, SuperRed said:

But I would imagine Johnson has been given relatively much more money and time than previous City managers at this level to be capable of building a squad that can challenge for promotion from this level whilst playing decent football. Instead we’re 4 years on and he has compiled a huge squad and is producing  poor football with no semblance of the “identity” that he speaks of. 
 

You also say that Johnson’s 17/18 team is up there with the best in our history. I would argue that it’s no coincidence that the spine of that team were here before Johnson. 

 

 

Also for a large part of the good football we played in that season was when he couldn't tinker with the team due to injures. Soon as players came back like Fam the form and style dropped 

[Bristol Oil Services]

Some great points, but I'm out of likes today. I agree with Graham and Rich that 90/91 was a rollicking good year, I believe we scored 44 goals in 23 home games that season. How very Bristol City that we failed dismally to build upon that.

I stand by my general point, though. We have never really been a thrilling side above the third tier. Perhaps not as tedious as this season but "sexy" football has been thin on the ground, and when we had a bit of it under Denis Smith and Jacki/Andy Cole it soon ended in tears, and more tedium.

To SuperRed I would say that whatever money Johnson has had he hasn't been paying top wages for this division and has delivered a higher finish for two seasons running than the wages he has paid out would suggest we should finish in the table (ie last season, we were not the 8th top wage payers, nor the 11th the year before, I do not think).

We could be doing better though, for league position and entertainment - as Brentford are demonstrating.

[Rich]

20 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Some great points, but I'm out of likes today. I agree with Graham and Rich that 90/91 was a rollicking good year, I believe we scored 44 goals in 23 home games that season. How very Bristol City that we failed dismally to build upon that.

I stand by my general point, though. We have never really been a thrilling side above the third tier. Perhaps not as tedious as this season but "sexy" football has been thin on the ground, and when we had a bit of it under Denis Smith and Jacki/Andy Cole it soon ended in tears, and more tedium.

To SuperRed I would say that whatever money Johnson has had he hasn't been paying top wages for this division and has delivered a higher finish for two seasons running than the wages he has paid out would suggest we should finish in the table (ie last season, we were not the 8th top wage payers, nor the 11th the year before, I do not think).

We could be doing better though, for league position and entertainment - as Brentford are demonstrating.

To be a thrilling side, you'd have to invest a great deal, which we previously have not done or very wisely. I maintain that currently, we've invested a great deal, just not wisely. End product, cod n chips with a gherkin.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Rich said:

To be a thrilling side, you'd have to invest a great deal, which we previously have not done or very wisely. I maintain that currently, we've invested a great deal, just not wisely. End product, cod n chips with a gherkin.

Think the problem lies higher than a lot of the players tbh..

[Bristol Oil Services]

9 minutes ago, Rich said:

To be a thrilling side, you'd have to invest a great deal, which we previously have not done or very wisely. I maintain that currently, we've invested a great deal, just not wisely. End product, cod n chips with a gherkin.

I think you know more about fish suppers than me, mate

[Rich]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Think the problem lies higher than a lot of the players tbh..

I thought that was what I was saying. Never questioned the players.

 

[Rich]

8 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

I think you know more about fish suppers than me, mate

Not my favourite, though a gherkin cleans the palate lovely.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Rich said:

I thought that was what I was saying. Never questioned the players.

 

Oh right. Wasn't fully clear. I think LJ and how he utilises them quite problematic personally. We see quite good players, with a good starting point just regress or stagnate- seems to be groundhog day!

[Bristol Oil Services]

I'm just watching a re-run of Beyonce at Glastonbury and she just introduced a special guest: "all the way from Knawl West ... Trickee!" Didn't see that coming,

That was quite exciting, to be fair

[Rich]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oh right. Wasn't fully clear. I think LJ and how he utilises them quite problematic personally. We see quite good players, with a good starting point just regress or stagnate- seems to be groundhog day!

So much has been discussed on this point. From over development, over coaching, picking teams from the tombola, having more success with fewer options, over thinking, etc etc. At the end of the day, he's a crap manager, being propped up by the clubs owner, who doesn't want to lose face.

[054123]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Think it is arguable that the side Jimmy Lumsden inherited from Joe Jordan was a pretty entertaining one & his subsequent signing of Dziekanowski certainly suggested that he believed in playing that style of football.

I am just old enough to remember the season we got promoted to the top flight under AD, we were a honest, hard working team that had 2 decent strikers but we were a counter attacking side, in truth.

Having said that, what I don’t want is to watch a side playing artless long ball football or in an ultra defensive style but that apart, I’m really not that bothered.

The GJ side that got us to the playoff final was pretty much perfect for me, he got the maximum out of nearly every player & with a work rate & organisation that never left me feeling short changed.

 

The building blocks were absolutely there post 1990 fir promotion to Division 1. Sadly we lacked leadership and belief in the board to capitalize on the opportunity.

I get a similar feeling now. If you ask me if in 5 years time, is it more likely we have played The third division or the first during that period, I’d say third.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Rich said:

So much has been discussed on this point. From over development, over coaching, picking teams from the tombola, having more success with fewer options, over thinking, etc etc. At the end of the day, he's a crap manager, being propped up by the clubs owner, who doesn't want to lose face.

Spot on, Lee is safe and sets up his teams to be safe, he will not "go for the throat" and plans and worries about the other teams instead of letting them fear us; we have some of the best players in this div but lack a leader and a midfield general; they are on his lead like he is on SL`s lead.

Change nah even if form and attendance drops right off and SL does show him the door, SL will bring in another just the same someone safe and boring as hell. No risks, no pride, no passion, no belief just nice and safe.

[Major Isewater]

Our club has never , in modern times, been The fashionable club that every player wants to play for , whilst in the top two divisions so we have had to focus on what we can achieve with the players available to us . 
 

It is ‘easier ‘ to build a strong defensive unit than buy  an Ian Wright , Thierry Henry or Harry Kane to out score the opponents. 
 

We weren’t high scorers in the First Division or indeed in our promotion year but we were still entertaining and always attacked, particularly at home.

[Major Isewater]

8 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

I'm just watching a re-run of Beyonce at Glastonbury and she just introduced a special guest: "all the way from Knawl West ... Trickee!" Didn't see that coming,

That was quite exciting, to be fair

I was just wondering what Famara would be doing on stage with Beyoncé . 
 

[Dr Balls]

Our best run of form under LJ came when he had relatively limited options. We had 4 central defenders at the back, although both of the “full backs“ were at least internationals, and a forward up front, who until that season had been an underwhelming lightweight midfielder. Yet that team was good to watch, even if it didn’t have the style of Cotterill’s “League 1 Galaticos”.

Since that half season we have not improved, but instead gone into a negative groove and set up of first trying to avoid defeat, rather than setting out to win, even at home. It’s been hard to watch, the entertainment value has been minimal, and any excitement has been sporadic at best.

Building slowly on strong foundations might be fine if you’re developing an accountancy and stockbroking business, but it doesn’t really work so well in football, especially if most of the competition are more impatient to achieve success.And the Championship is fiercely competitive, much more so than the Premier League, where for at least 8 clubs each season, the measure of success is avoiding relegation.

[Oh Louie louie]

Joes, team certainly played exciting football.

Gavin on one wing, smith the other.

Bob taylor scoring god knows how many.

That wasnt ungly to watch.

Not to mention gary shelton running the midfield.

[City oz]

12 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

....whilst competing at this level, or the one above.

Other than 1905/6 and 1906/7, we have only set the football world alight with attacking flair, over a sustained period, whilst mullering "the likes of" Walsall, Gillingham, or some other minnows in the less challenging surroundings of L1 or Division Three, as was.

Terry Cooper and Danny Wilson could attack lower division opposition with a degree of abandon because at that level we were a big fish and had sufficient clout. And a relatively big crowd behind us.

Ok, Brentford for one, are showing what can be done with limited funds, but LJ isn't significantly less entertaining than previous City managers at this level or the one above. We have pretty much always been fairly pragmatic and unexciting - to the undevoted and neutral, at least - in the highest company, finding goals hard to come by, and finding it necessary to find simple ways to win and survive before giving any thought to cutting a dash.

No-one outside of Bristol remembers City from 76 - 80 for style and entertaining football. 

The 75/6 team are remembered very fondly by those that were there and had the thrill of winning and being promoted but they were not a team that sit in the imaginations of any supporters of other clubs (unlike, say, the Ipswich team of Bobby Robson) around the country.

If Lee's team is dull but top half of this division he is doing fairly well when compared to his predecessors at this level of football. I would suggest.

I appreciate this will not go down well with old 'uns that were there and remember 75/6 but I don't think they are necessarily the best qualified to speak without bias of the style and attacking flair of that era when compared to other teams back then. They were 15 to 25 years old at the time, drunk on life/having a punch up in the East end and couldn't give a fug about the quality of entertainment/were cidered up every week/couldn't see properly because of the pillars.

You can check out how many goals we scored back then, to get some idea. 

Johnson's 2017/18 team is up there with the best in our history, and most enjoyable (bearing in mind the level of competition) I would contest. 

Just some thoughts on the entertainment value currently (which I admit has been dismal this season). Johnson needs a stroke of luck/genius as happened with Bobby Reid and it could all get interesting again. Either that, or conjure a run of positive results which covers many sins.

We ought to beat Sheffield Wednesday this weekend, anyway, and our games against them have been lively of late.

 

Nothing wrong will the pillars in the East End. Obviously between pillars 3 and 4 were the best atmosphere but most punch ups were between pillars 5 and 6 as this is where the away supporters always tried to infiltrate the east end by using the turnstiles in the corner between the the old enclosure grandstand and east end. Even between pillars 1 and 2 Dolman corner was also a good spot and a great view over the ground. Us old uns would of and always cherish the atmosphere in the good old days where the team played with guts and passion.

[Hampshire reds]

Joe Jordan's. Danny Wilson. Terry Cooper all there teams were good to watch. At times i enjoyed Steve Cotterills teams. I dont enjoy the current team. i find most games a bit boring. some away performances have been ok but at Ashton Gate the matches have been dire. half the problem at the moment is to many changes to the team. no settled teams.

every week there is at least 5 to 6 changes. sadly that will be his downfall 

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Joes, team certainly played exciting football.

Gavin on one wing, smith the other.

Bob taylor scoring god knows how many.

That wasnt ungly to watch.

Not to mention gary shelton running the midfield.

 

5 minutes ago, Hampshire reds said:

Joe Jordan's. Danny Wilson. Terry Cooper all there teams were good to watch. At times i enjoyed Steve Cotterills teams. 

Yes, sure, I agree, but all in the Third Division / L1, other than the first two games of 90/91. Which is the main point of my OP - we have always been able to be more exciting and easy on the eye lower down the pyramid than at the top two levels, where we are now - but never mind ....

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, glos old boy said:

Spot on, Lee is safe and sets up his teams to be safe, he will not "go for the throat" and plans and worries about the other teams instead of letting them fear us; we have some of the best players in this div but lack a leader and a midfield general; they are on his lead like he is on SL`s lead.

Change nah even if form and attendance drops right off and SL does show him the door, SL will bring in another just the same someone safe and boring as hell. No risks, no pride, no passion, no belief just nice and safe.

Interested in your ideal team.

He pulls off a seemingly remarkable feat of being able to worry about the opposition yet picking a typical starting team that lets the opposition gain control.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

Our best run of form under LJ came when he had relatively limited options. We had 4 central defenders at the back, although both of the “full backs“ were at least internationals, and a forward up front, who until that season had been an underwhelming lightweight midfielder. Yet that team was good to watch, even if it didn’t have the style of Cotterill’s “League 1 Galaticos”.

Since that half season we have not improved, but instead gone into a negative groove and set up of first trying to avoid defeat, rather than setting out to win, even at home. It’s been hard to watch, the entertainment value has been minimal, and any excitement has been sporadic at best.

Building slowly on strong foundations might be fine if you’re developing an accountancy and stockbroking business, but it doesn’t really work so well in football, especially if most of the competition are more impatient to achieve success.And the Championship is fiercely competitive, much more so than the Premier League, where for at least 8 clubs each season, the measure of success is avoiding relegation.

Agreed, from say late November to mid January- with the odd game here and there showing reminders- that was great.

Was actually hopeful he might try to replicate it last season albeit in an amended form:

             Maenpaa

Wright Kalas Webster Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh DaSilva

               Paterson

               Weimann 

Clearly no Reid a big difference. Bryan too- could a Kelly-DaSilva left side have replicated Magnússon-Bryan? Smith of course being injured hence Walsh.

Yet what we lose in Flint, Bryan, Reid otoh we gain a better technical pairing at CB, Webster especially. The latter of course able to carry the ball into midfield. Kelly a higher ceiling than Magnússon. Maenpaa for Fielding?

Would've been geniuinely interested in what this side might have done, or been able to do.

I also enjoyed the first few months before the injuries kicked in, quite free scoring but less control. Even after things reverted to type a bit we still saw goals at home (sadly at both ends in a couple of cases).

Last two seasons not been ideal at home though. Some reasonable to good games but certainly not a majority.

[Oh Louie louie]

Games werent boring under gary johnstone in that leauge.

Not a chance.

[Cider red]

On 27/06/2020 at 06:35, Rich said:

Ok, I'll bite. You are making comparisons with teams from our past, competing at this level or the one above. We'll start with the one playing in the one above, even though there is nothing to compare it with. To be able to compete at that level and at that time, we had to cut our cloth to pay the wages of players brought in to top up a team which were not good enough to survive. Our youth system which had helped get us there, was abandoned, which proved to be problematic in the future. Some of the players brought in were of top quality and quite entertaining football was played. You refer to the number of goals scored during that period, I'd like to point out that goals for all but the very best teams were quite scarce, it was a much more defense minded game in those days. So not really fair to compare with "Lees" team of today, or any team of todays modern game.

As for comparisons in this division, we've had very few years in reality to compare. I'd argue that Our first season up under Cotterill was more entertaining than at present, even if we were getting beat by the odd goals, I think our attacking play was quite entertaining. Our first term under John Ward was also quite entertaining apart from the results and when Joe Jordan jumped ship, Jimmy Lumsden's side produced some good football. But what you cannot do is compare any of those sides with todays team. The sheer amount of investment in the current crop of players compared to those other sides nullifies any sense in trying to compare.

It's like opening up two fish restaurants. You give one manager a cook, a cleaner, potatoes and fish fingers, to provide a cordon Bleu menu but, end up with fishfingers and chips. The other restaurant manager is given a couple of chefs, two waiters, door staff, a preparation area for all the fresh food, special access to freshly caught sea food such as Scallops, lobster, scampi, and all the white fish you could want, specially brought in vegetables from around the UK but, the menu ends up as cod and chips with gherkin on the side.

Quality analergy