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Brentford- what a team


MC RISK77

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25 minutes ago, Pickle Rick said:

We had a choice of Watkins or Eliasson?

That a fact?

It was mentioned after the game that Watkins was highly scouted and recommended to West Brom at the time but they didn’t take it any further with Exeter. So some do slip through the net and get picked up by others. Maybe we could have competed with Brentford for him but if West Brom were really interested surely they would have got him.

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22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I often use bloated squad, but I reckon it’s more unbalanced, bloated in some areas, light in others.

I agree. We often seem to gather a player as he is ‘another club in the bag’, to add something different. However on balance when we need to change it up a bit and look in that bag all the ‘clubs’ look the same.

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Many good posts. Yes Brentford really do play decent stuff and they remind me of Norwich last season with fluidity in their play. (Looks like we will be playing them again next season, but they stuck to their style in the Prem)

it is so galling that we are light years away from Brentford, mighty Brentford. It makes you question what on earth LJ and his staff have been playing at the last few years to be so far behind. I want SL and MA to ask the fabled  staff the same 

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1 hour ago, Pickle Rick said:

We had a choice of Watkins or Eliasson?

That a fact?

There was a quote at the time that said we had £2m to spend & they were the 2 we had on our list.

However when you consider that we spent a similar sum to that on Engvall, not much less than it on the likes of O’Dowda, Djuric & Hunt then my point was Eliasson is hardly our worst ever deal, but in hindsight Watkins was obviously the one of the two we should have bought.

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1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Indeed, the "location" explanation as to why Brentford are flying falls at the first hurdle when you ask why they are flying now, and not 10/15/20 years ago (the answer being, Matthew Benham).

Location is also largely irrelevant in their case if a large percentage of your signings are Danish, though Bentham owning one of Denmark’s biggest 2 clubs as well obviously helps them there.

No one else is exactly copying their model, with no reserve team or Academy, an influx of players from Scandinavia, a moneyball transfer strategy, a system that survives a churn in coaches (incidentally the current one started really poorly but they kept faith) & with a continuity of playing style, but it won’t be long before someone else does, surely?

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1 hour ago, daored said:

Their success is down to a coherent game plan but also excellent recruiting. They lose a top player every summer and then replace that player with someone who generally goes on to improve the team.

They buy players to fit their system (not to have too many clubs in the bag and then not know what to do). Brentford are light years ahead of us in terms of playing style and recruitment. They are the club that SL wants us to be

I used the term ‘ game plan ‘ in the wider sense . 

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13 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

Agree some of the football is beautiful.

can you imagine us trying to take it to west brom

You mean like being 3-0 up against them after 25 mins at home because we took it to WBA?

OK it ended 3-2, but if you're gonna try and knock our playing style, at least knock something we didn't do!

I think the majority of us would agree, we'd all prefer to see a front 4/5 of Palmer, Eliasson, Afobe, Wells + Fammy/Weimann/Pato get into form as it would be an attacking and exciting team on the front foot. We'd won some games 4-0, some others 5-4 and then we may get smashed, but it would be better than sneaking a 1-0 lead with 1 up front and then defying for 75 mins.

I get why managers are generally more defensive and go out to 'not lose' because if you look at some of the vitriol in the match days threads and social media towards LJ if we start losing, but I think with so many managers doing this, the ones that are brave (Brentford, Preston, etc) can surprise teams.

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2 hours ago, Pickle Rick said:

We had a choice of Watkins or Eliasson?

That a fact?

I thought as has already been mentioned, that we were after Watkins but he and Exeter chose Brentford for less money initially because they would both get a better return in the long run as they felt he would be nurtured towards his full potential at Brentford and they didn’t trust us to do the same.  Very sad indictment of our club if true.

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10 hours ago, billywedlock said:

We can use all the talk we want, all the excuses, and even if other clubs with similar budgets, resources have got to the Prem, Brentford, Brentford is the shining example of what we are so blatantly missing. They have for years now played great football, we end up buying their cast offs, and they sell well and invest well. They are everything we should have had in our target. Not a Prem football team , but a club that with limited resources that has progressed and above all plays football you actually want to watch. LJ is incapable of delivering anything close. They are a selling club, have no parachute payments, have a small crowd. So why is it unreasonable that Bristol City cannot match Brentford. Yes Brentford. Steve L needs to wake up, he is wasting time and money. That we are so far from Brentford should at least make Steve L think. Can LJ ever deliver something like Brentford, I repeat our benchmark is Brentford. Full respect to them, they have made us look inept. But LJ is not even remotely close to matching that level. 

They certainly explode the myth that the reason LJ can’t succeed is because we keep selling our best players.

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24 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

That was how much money we had left at the end of the window for one more signing.

In an alternative reality where we'd signed Watkins and Eliasson had ended up at Brentford, we'd be jealously looking at this brilliantly creative player Brentford signed whereas we ended up with this winger Watkins who the manager doesn't seem to trust enough to keep in the team despite looking really good...

Basically, it's not a simple matter of he's better than him.  The point is Brentford are better at turning a promising player into a progressive player quickly and thus allowing them to prove themselves. The Trust word is key here...  

 

 

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14 hours ago, RedRock said:

Ollie ******* Watkins again. 

A Newton Abbot lad. Playing for Exeter. He went to Brentford. We got CoD. 

Explains everything.

 

My mini-league of Brentford, Preston and us ain’t looking good reading for LJs future. 

Darren Moore mentioned during the summarising that Ollie was also offered to West Brom.

 

Their loss and all that.

14 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:


 

they beat us 5-0 at Ashton gate if I remember correctly 

4

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10 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Brentford are exceptional. Happy. Idiotic to reference clubs doing worse with more money. You have never worked with winners have you. Your mentality is a losers one. But that makes you happy, so that is great. 

No need for the personal attacks.

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10 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Warburton left because of a falling out with the owner over the way transfers would be done.

Not because his performance wasnt seemed good enough.

In our first season in the Championship, 2014/15, Matthew Benham offered Warbs funds in the January transfer window but he didn't want to upset the harmony in the squad.

 

That's as far as I'm aware was the reason for the falling out.

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51 minutes ago, grifty said:

You mean like being 3-0 up against them after 25 mins at home because we took it to WBA?

OK it ended 3-2, but if you're gonna try and knock our playing style, at least knock something we didn't do!

I think the majority of us would agree, we'd all prefer to see a front 4/5 of Palmer, Eliasson, Afobe, Wells + Fammy/Weimann/Pato get into form as it would be an attacking and exciting team on the front foot. We'd won some games 4-0, some others 5-4 and then we may get smashed, but it would be better than sneaking a 1-0 lead with 1 up front and then defying for 75 mins.

I get why managers are generally more defensive and go out to 'not lose' because if you look at some of the vitriol in the match days threads and social media towards LJ if we start losing, but I think with so many managers doing this, the ones that are brave (Brentford, Preston, etc) can surprise teams.

If any manager is that worried about ‘ vitriol ‘ he’s in the wrong freakin job.

 

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14 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

Brentford fully deserve to go up.

They haven’t got huge resources, get small crowds, no history of success at higher levels.  In spite of all that, they’ve settled on a style of play that’s a joy to watch and they seem to be able to repeat it, year after year, even after they sell their star players. In spite of selling, they seem to be able to identify replacements to keep things rolling on perfectly.

They are successfully doing everything we’re trying to do, but we’re falling well short.

Good luck to them

They have a philosophy at club level and recruit to suit that, in terms of both managers and personnel, if Franck was to leave tomorrow they would appoint a manager with a similar philosophy allowing continuity. 

We don't appear to have that and have allowed the same manager to change the philosophy and we have ended up with a talented but disjointed squad that don't actually seem to fit the style of play we seem to have adopted. 

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10 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Brentford are exceptional. Happy. Idiotic to reference clubs doing worse with more money. You have never worked with winners have you. Your mentality is a losers one. But that makes you happy, so that is great. 

It’s what I describe as the ‘ok’ attitude. There was a Honda advert on years ago which referenced other car makers ‘ok’ standards... contrasting with their own pursuit of perfection. 

I fear amongst many in Bristol and, indeed the South West, have an ‘it’s ok’ attitude to life. That mentality is embedded in our Club and no number of ‘in pursuit of excellence’ posters will change it.

You need a strong leader - a Warnock or McCarthy sort who have seen it, dealt with it and collected trophies - to shake the place up to its foundations. No good having some one who is learning on the job, using management manuals and going out for work experience sessions. Needs an old head who commands respect. Old school maybe, might offend some of our snowflakes, but I want to support a team of fighters and winners.

Of recent managers, only one, had the sort of mentality I’m looking for. Cotts. Remind me, what did he achieve? 

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11 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

If any manager is that worried about ‘ vitriol ‘ he’s in the wrong freakin job.

 

Wasn't it LJ that got death threats and had to move home? Unless that should be part and parcel of being a football manager now?

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25 minutes ago, Brentford Fan said:

In our first season in the Championship, 2014/15, Matthew Benham offered Warbs funds in the January transfer window but he didn't want to upset the harmony in the squad.

 

That's as far as I'm aware was the reason for the falling out.

Great side you have there. Philosophy, moving to a new stadium too- exciting times for you.

Frank or Smith, who is better your view? Continuity or some notable differences?

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35 minutes ago, The Bard said:

In an alternative reality where we'd signed Watkins and Eliasson had ended up at Brentford, we'd be jealously looking at this brilliantly creative player Brentford signed whereas we ended up with this winger Watkins who the manager doesn't seem to trust enough to keep in the team despite looking really good...

Basically, it's not a simple matter of he's better than him.  The point is Brentford are better at turning a promising player into a progressive player quickly and thus allowing them to prove themselves. The Trust word is key here...  

 

 

Yep.

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46 minutes ago, lenred said:

I thought as has already been mentioned, that we were after Watkins but he and Exeter chose Brentford for less money initially because they would both get a better return in the long run as they felt he would be nurtured towards his full potential at Brentford and they didn’t trust us to do the same.  Very sad indictment of our club if true.

It’s true.

Brentford did all they could to make him feel wanted too, stuff with Ted Baker (whatever the relevance of fashion) made him feel wanted.

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1 hour ago, grifty said:

You mean like being 3-0 up against them after 25 mins at home because we took it to WBA?

OK it ended 3-2, but if you're gonna try and knock our playing style, at least knock something we didn't do!

I think the majority of us would agree, we'd all prefer to see a front 4/5 of Palmer, Eliasson, Afobe, Wells + Fammy/Weimann/Pato get into form as it would be an attacking and exciting team on the front foot. We'd won some games 4-0, some others 5-4 and then we may get smashed, but it would be better than sneaking a 1-0 lead with 1 up front and then defying for 75 mins.

I get why managers are generally more defensive and go out to 'not lose' because if you look at some of the vitriol in the match days threads and social media towards LJ if we start losing, but I think with so many managers doing this, the ones that are brave (Brentford, Preston, etc) can surprise teams.

A front 5? Blimey! On paper sounds very exciting, OTOH I have tactical concerns. 

I remember and checking back confirmed this. Last season in a game (one that springs to mind) we did start with Weimann, Eliasson, Paterson and Diedhiou. Ipswich at home.

Bottom of the table and relegation bound Ipswich. As I recall we were somewhat of a mess, no real particular fluency, no patterns of play, little control...

Brentford are a lovely side to watch, great balance too. They play with a central 3. Preston are more orthodox but can score a few at home especially. They play with a 4-2-3-1 albeit one that can shift into a 4-3-3 given a CM is part of the '3' in front. This helps with balance and structure IMO- it labours a point but I see this as fairly crucial at this level today. 

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1 hour ago, Brentford Fan said:

In our first season in the Championship, 2014/15, Matthew Benham offered Warbs funds in the January transfer window but he didn't want to upset the harmony in the squad.

 

That's as far as I'm aware was the reason for the falling out.

It was said at the time that the restructuring was an issue

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31489212

Nethertheless, if City don't go up (which is looking increasingly likely) I wish Brentford every success in promotion. As a club you play good football, and a relative (though distant and through marriage) works at Brentford. 

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1 hour ago, Spud55 said:

They have a philosophy at club level and recruit to suit that, in terms of both managers and personnel, if Franck was to leave tomorrow they would appoint a manager with a similar philosophy allowing continuity. 

We don't appear to have that and have allowed the same manager to change the philosophy and we have ended up with a talented but disjointed squad that don't actually seem to fit the style of play we seem to have adopted. 

Half the players he can’t even ‘trust’ apparently let alone develop a consistent philosophy and style of play with them! 

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1 hour ago, Brentford Fan said:

Darren Moore mentioned during the summarising that Ollie was also offered to West Brom.

 

Their loss and all that.

4

Could have been double that BF, iirc.

Whatever happens at the end of the season, Brentford appear to be a proper club, who haven’t completely sold out to the money men, but still manage to play great football on a budget.

I admit to having a soft spot for the Bees, partly due to many stays in the Kew Bridge.Travelodge and I’ve watched your stadium development with interest.  Will miss Griffin Park, as I’m sure you all will, but sure it’ll be a good move for you.

Must be tough being one of the smaller clubs in London, but you’re doing a cracking job and I’ll bet there are a fair few of the bigger ones looking on you with a good deal of envy on how you’re conducting yourselves in a tough market.

I’ve long given up on us getting anywhere near promotion this year, so will be rooting for your side to make it, even though that will be yet another side sailing past us on the way up to the top flight.

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Agree with everything that has been said about Brentford, easily the best side I've seen at Ashton Gate this season, with Leeds and West Brom away the best I've seen full stop (in no small part due to how inept we were). In each of those three games (Brentford at home, West Brom and Leeds away) we looked completely - as in divisions difference in standard - outclassed. Any season where the top 3 are clearly the standout teams, it's a bit of shame there needs to be any play offs (though as always for selfish reasons will happily take them, if only for the fleeting moments of optimism for us prior to that customary annual surrender when Neil Harris and most of mid-table overtake us).

The thing that impresses me about Brentford relative to us is less standout players like Watkins or Benrhama (or in the past Sawyers or Maupay or Gray), but the supporting cast of squad players who come in, know the system and match the required standard. We don't have Brentford's record for unearthing gems, but we could at least get a similar consistency from our squad. Compare to how frequently LJ dips into his squad for adjustments that result in confused, calamitous performances and his "players I can trust" reverse ferret. The difference, I imagine, is Brentford have a clear system that all the squad understand, and the coach truly believes in and trusts any one of them to step in.

As an illustration of that, I think in the 4-0 in January they brought a Russian (?) 21 year old right back into the side, who looked completely comfortable throughout and from memory made quite a few overlapping runs to combine with star players. If we're swapping right back it's because we're flip-flopping on formation or punishing mistakes by one or other following one of our regular meltdowns. With all this said, for a bit of levity, so any lurking Brentford fans don't get a big head, on a small point of order, the season we won at their place via Eliasson, I think Frank had already had a poor run as caretaker and a few of them didn't rate the choice as manager, so hindsight is always easy.  

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5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

A front 5? Blimey! On paper sounds very exciting, OTOH I have tactical concerns. 

I remember and checking back confirmed this. Last season in a game (one that springs to mind) we did start with Weimann, Eliasson, Paterson and Diedhiou. Ipswich at home.

Bottom of the table and relegation bound Ipswich. As I recall we were somewhat of a mess, no real particular fluency, no patterns of play, little control...

Brentford are a lovely side to watch, great balance too. They play with a central 3. Preston are more orthodox but can score a few at home especially. They play with a 4-2-3-1 albeit one that can shift into a 4-3-3 given a CM is part of the '3' in front. This helps with balance and structure IMO- it labours a point but I see this as fairly crucial at this level today. 

And for 35 minutes chased the ball around as Chalobah controlled midfield ???

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23 hours ago, GrahamC said:

The choice was actually sign him or Eliasson.

In hindsight we made the wrong one, but I think it is also fair to say we have spent £2m on far worse players that we did on Niclas. 

Maybe Nicolas would have been a better player if he had gone to Brentford? Who knows, they are playing under different coaches. 

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2 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Maybe Nicolas would have been a better player if he had gone to Brentford? Who knows, they are playing under different coaches. 

Yes, that’s entirely possible.

My point was that the choice we had was between signing Watkins & Eliasson & we probably chose the wrong one, but the signing we actually made was still a good one.

Someone earlier on tried to compare for effect the signing of O’Dowda instead, that is completely irrelevant, as we signed him the year before those 2 players moved clubs.

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