Year on year progress....

[YorkshireSection]

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

He's making the most bizarre decisions I've seen in all his time here.

Did I overrate him? Yes I think I did.

He tries so many different things, one thing is bound to eventually work.

So that 17/18 442 with the 2 false 9s was something he tried because he kind of had to. 

Give him millions to have a back up for Fam and it would not have happened as he would probably not have ever tried it.

Around about Ipswich away last season he had tried different things that were not working. Many of us calling for a more solid 4141 type formation for a long time. He goes to that in the second half of that game and we look good and win the game.

We then go on an amazing run based around that system. He guessed it during a game, it worked and our new way of playing would carry on for a few months where we went on a great run.

If we look back at when we survived in the 16/17 season. Some of us were saying drop Tomlin for months. I was saying it for ages, not all agreed but some did as Tomlin was absolutely awful. When you're losing every game and you have a fat man who doesn't care, it is pretty obvious to drop him!

Brownhill played one second half on the right of a midfield 4. Night game I think, can't remember who against. We won the game I think. Really can't remember the details but I just remember how good he looked there.

It was clear how good he was in that position. LJ took several weeks or even months, can't remember how long. But he finally played Brownhill there with Pack and Smith in the middle. Dropped Tomlin FINALLY, and played a proper hard working forward that supported Tammy in Matty Taylor. 

He'd probably tried everything else by that point. Was our survival that season down to a lucky guess from LJ? It seems so as otherwise why wouldn't he just go with that side months earlier!

I could probably go on. But I'm beginning to think even the good parts of LJs time here have happened because he is so random in what he does and eventually something clicks. 

In some ways it's not a bad strategy if you don't know what you're doing!

It should be that he can see what will work and he makes it happen.

We can see what can and can't work and we don't have the benefit of seeing it in training. He has! Yet he still gets it horribly wrong. 

I did not expect to change my mind on LJ after 2 games since coming back. But what is he doing. I really think I may have been wrong about his ability as a head coach.

I don't see whatever it is I thought he had before.

The guy's a charlatan, a complete fraud, his career carved from luck and chance.

He will never have a chairman/owner/board (bored) that invest so much in him (time/money) again.

If SL was a "football man", he'd have smelled a rat time ago, maybe now he realises. As the saying goes "better late than never".

Goodbye wee man, I'm sure you're a nice fella but you're time here is up.

[mozo]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

....is about to come to an end.

 

We now need 5 wins and a draw from 7 games to make progress.  4 wins and any combination of anything else, is not enough for progress, in terms of points.

I see little likelihood of finishing better than 8th either.

Yeah I think finishing 9th or lower is very possible and that would be decline in the truest sense. 

He might be chasing fewer points than 2018-19, and his worst GD at City.

 

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, mozo said:

Yeah I think finishing 9th or lower is very possible and that would be decline in the truest sense. 

He might be chasing fewer points than 2018-19, and his worst GD at City.

 

 

Defeat on Wednesday and it genuinely will be “feet up, beach time” for the remaining 6.

[mozo]

I think the Man U and Man C games proved he's not a fraud. But the time since those games has proved that he couldn't sustain success with all the many challenges that a head coach faces.

Lee Johnson has earned respect, and it's childish not to give him that.

Has he earned another season though? He'll need some pretty convincing explanations for the rubbish dishes out this season for me to say yes to that.

My feeling is he'll get ten games of 2020-21 to prove there was a plan after all, but with the seasons almost back to back, it's almost a continuation of current form, without a long time out to regroup.

 

[Olé]

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I could probably go on. But I'm beginning to think even the good parts of LJs time here have happened because he is so random in what he does and eventually something clicks. 

In some ways it's not a bad strategy if you don't know what you're doing!

What a great post, both your perception/revisitation of how LJ hits upon a winning formula, and your post-lockdown change of heart really sums up my feelings too.

Despite the wretched form since December (bar the 4 wins in a row) LJ had plenty of goodwill in the bank for me given the level and variety of winning away over the past 18 months (believe it or not we're still 4th in the away league table), so I didn't come out of the break with any particular desire for change, but these two matches have been my Emperors New Clothes moment too.  

We've been down the "streaky Lee" road many many times before, but each additional time we do it, the circumstances and his interventions give us new control data to help us learn more about what the real variables are and what affect Lee has. And like you I've never felt more convinced that LJ hasn't got a winning strategy, just a bloody minded perseverance with experimentation.

On reflection (and we hear it in all the PR) LJ is a great organiser, so when something works he can meticulously prepare the team to rinse and repeat for as long as we can sustain a winning run, but if the opposite is true, he is no leader and cannot intervene meaningfully to inspire the players, nor is he a master tactician who can identify a winning strategy for the assets at his disposal.

This season has been the worst of the past 3 years (with 7 points less than the same point in the last two), but more than that it's easily the worst football of LJ's 5 seasons, despite the largest and most talented squad of players he's ever had. I rarely understand what we're trying to do besides punt channel balls forward to find runners, while being consistently unable to pass the ball.

I refuse to believe a competent coach with a clear strategy could not get more out of our squad, and certainly far more out of the past two games. Not only is it appalling that we lost them both, but I don't share the minor optimism about a 5 minute opening today - we're evidently starved of proper football as in my opinion the football is somewhere between non-existent and abysmal.

We came out of pre-season, fell apart in our first game, Lee changed half the team, and on we went. We came out of our mid-season break, fell apart in our first game, and changed half the team.  The message is clear: given time to plan, both LJ's strategy and his evaluation of his players, is flawed. But it's what he then does which really scares me - experiment, experiment, experiment.

Experimentation is not leadership. It's the same every season. Hitting upon a winning formula is the product of luck and always seems to be a painful process of elimination until he is left with a team that wins. In LJ's interview today he said "I saw signs we could go on a run". The revealing, subconscious admission is he doesn't know how to win but he'll know how to keep repeating it.

It seems an age ago being stood in freezing rain at Huddersfield watching our worst display since the 5-0 at Preston 4 years ago (it really was that awful, despite the relatively modest margin of defeat). But in football terms it's "four weeks" ago. I have to remind myself of that because on reflection it's wholly unacceptable we haven't won a match since then. The lot of them owe it to us.

And then I reflect on how many different teams "he can trust" LJ's put out since then, how many different players he has used, and ideas he has employed - magnified by the mid-season break. In circumstances where the players owe us a result, to consistently not have one tells me that in this latest run of blind experimentation, it's the players that don't trust LJ, not the other way round.

[GrahamC]

4 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Good point. I think some stato would find our form under Johnson in an injury crisis is better than when he has options. The bloke has no clue of his best formation, best 11 and never has. Dressed up as being some tactically flexible mastermind. 

This is so spot on.

When we did so well against the 2 Manchester clubs our outfield 10 players were;

Wright, Flint, Baker, Magnússon, Brownhill, Pack, Smith, Bryan, Paterson & Reid.

The subs included a load of kids, plus Matty Taylor, Walsh & Eliasson.

I’d argue that outfield starting 10 is actually far better than this much vaunted squad that we have now (compare the 2 midfields, FFS) but also by having so few options LJ was able to maximise what he had, as opposed to the chopping & changing of teams, formations & tactics we get now.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

This is so spot on.

When we did so well against the 2 Manchester clubs our outfield 10 players were;

Wright, Flint, Baker, Magnússon, Brownhill, Pack, Smith, Bryan, Paterson & Reid.

The subs included a load of kids, plus Matty Taylor, Walsh & Eliasson.

I’d argue that outfield starting 10 is actually far better than this much vaunted squad that we have now (compare the 2 midfields, FFS) but also by having so few options LJ was able to maximise what he had, as opposed to the chopping & changing of teams, formations & tactics we get now.

It as the system too tbh. 

You make subtle tweaks to that system and suddenly weaknesses get exposed where they weren't before. Wright and Magnússon at full back for example would be nobodys idea of a first choice pair, at all. Take out one and put in an orthodox RB or LB,  and the system is weakened.

Best players don't always make up best team and all that.

However being restricted by injury sure did help.

[Dr Balls]

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It as the system too tbh. 

You make subtle tweaks to that system and suddenly weaknesses get exposed where they weren't before. Wright and Magnússon at full back for example would be nobodys idea of a first choice pair, at all. Take out one and put in an orthodox RB or LB,  and the system is weakened.

Best players don't always make up best team and all that.

However being restricted by injury sure did help.

This situation is nothing new. Having the best players is not the issue, it’s having the best ones to play together in the right positions and formation, which is where a Manager or coach comes into their own.

When Jack Charlton got picked for England in 1965, rumour has it that he said to Alf Ramsey that it has taken a while but at last Alf had recognised the best central defender in England (well after Bobby Moore). Apparently Alf responded that Jack wasn’t even the 2nd or 3rd best English central defender, but he was the best one for the job he wanted done. In other words, he knew what the team was missing and picked a player to fit that hole.

By contrast, LJ is clueless. Every week it’s churn and change. No one can ever predict his team or work out how it is supposed to function. Chimps left alone at a typewriter for long enough might by random produce a work to standard comparison to Shakespeare, but it doesn’t make them literary geniuses. Likewise LJ might occasionally hit on a winning formula, but he will never be a top notch coach and I can guarantee that he could stay here another 20 years and he still wouldn’t get us anywhere, however much money Steve Lansdown throws at the project.

[reddoh]

5 hours ago, AberRed said:

I feel like this is a point that doesn't get mentioned a lot but probably should.

Watching us play can feel like a chore sometimes. A lot of our games are dull as ditch water. 

Please there is more life in ditch water moving than  on the pitch

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

What a great post, both your perception/revisitation of how LJ hits upon a winning formula, and your post-lockdown change of heart really sums up my feelings too.

Despite the wretched form since December (bar the 4 wins in a row) LJ had plenty of goodwill in the bank for me given the level and variety of winning away over the past 18 months (believe it or not we're still 4th in the away league table), so I didn't come out of the break with any particular desire for change, but these two matches have been my Emperors New Clothes moment too.  

We've been down the "streaky Lee" road many many times before, but each additional time we do it, the circumstances and his interventions give us new control data to help us learn more about what the real variables are and what affect Lee has. And like you I've never felt more convinced that LJ hasn't got a winning strategy, just a bloody minded perseverance with experimentation.

On reflection (and we hear it in all the PR) LJ is a great organiser, so when something works he can meticulously prepare the team to rinse and repeat for as long as we can sustain a winning run, but if the opposite is true, he is no leader and cannot intervene meaningfully to inspire the players, nor is he a master tactician who can identify a winning strategy for the assets at his disposal.

This season has been the worst of the past 3 years (with 7 points less than the same point in the last two), but more than that it's easily the worst football of LJ's 5 seasons, despite the largest and most talented squad of players he's ever had. I rarely understand what we're trying to do besides punt channel balls forward to find runners, while being consistently unable to pass the ball.

I refuse to believe a competent coach with a clear strategy could not get more out of our squad, and certainly far more out of the past two games. Not only is it appalling that we lost them both, but I don't share the minor optimism about a 5 minute opening today - we're evidently starved of proper football as in my opinion the football is somewhere between non-existent and abysmal.

We came out of pre-season, fell apart in our first game, Lee changed half the team, and on we went. We came out of our mid-season break, fell apart in our first game, and changed half the team.  The message is clear: given time to plan, both LJ's strategy and his evaluation of his players, is flawed. But it's what he then does which really scares me - experiment, experiment, experiment.

Experimentation is not leadership. It's the same every season. Hitting upon a winning formula is the product of luck and always seems to be a painful process of elimination until he is left with a team that wins. In LJ's interview today he said "I saw signs we could go on a run". The revealing, subconscious admission is he doesn't know how to win but he'll know how to keep repeating it.

It seems an age ago being stood in freezing rain at Huddersfield watching our worst display since the 5-0 at Preston 4 years ago (it really was that awful, despite the relatively modest margin of defeat). But in football terms it's "four weeks" ago. I have to remind myself of that because on reflection it's wholly unacceptable we haven't won a match since then. The lot of them owe it to us.

And then I reflect on how many different teams "he can trust" LJ's put out since then, how many different players he has used, and ideas he has employed - magnified by the mid-season break. In circumstances where the players owe us a result, to consistently not have one tells me that in this latest run of blind experimentation, it's the players that don't trust LJ, not the other way round.

Wow. Beautifully put!

Every time I try to challenge my loss of faith in Johnson, reminding myself of the mitigating circumstances and reasonable wins of this season, I keep coming back to those Shrewsbury games, and how they sum up the hit and miss nature of Johnson and the ultimate disappointment when greeted by opportunity.

[Dr Balls]

7 minutes ago, mozo said:

Wow. Beautifully put!

Every time I try to challenge my loss of faith in Johnson, reminding myself of the mitigating circumstances and reasonable wins of this season, I keep coming back to those Shrewsbury games, and how they sum up the hit and miss nature of Johnson and the ultimate disappointment when greeted by opportunity.

SL needs to be reminded of the missed opportunity of an FA Cup tie against Liverpool and all of the exposure whenever he reviews LJ and this season. That failure was near the start of the slide that shows little chance of stopping.

[cidered abroad]

Thanks to so many of you for your informed comments.

From what I've seen over the 70 years that I've supported City, I am becoming more and more convinced that he is by a long way, the worst manager that City have had in that time.

I've come to that conclusion because, the support level from the board or owner in previous times is minute compared with the backing that has been afforded to LJ.  The only one that compares with transfer funds is Danny Wilson. He blew it by not being firm enough about the "social life" of many in his squad. Not because he couldn't organise tactics etc.

Johnson ,IMO, is not a good coach and if he stays here another ten years, the only way we'll go is down.

We need a massive amount of fresh football ideas and team management.

[TheCulturalBomb]

2 hours ago, mozo said:

I think the Man U and Man C games proved he's not a fraud. But the time since those games has proved that he couldn't sustain success with all the many challenges that a head coach faces.

Lee Johnson has earned respect, and it's childish not to give him that.

Has he earned another season though? He'll need some pretty convincing explanations for the rubbish dishes out this season for me to say yes to that.

My feeling is he'll get ten games of 2020-21 to prove there was a plan after all, but with the seasons almost back to back, it's almost a continuation of current form, without a long time out to regroup.

 

The first half of that season we genuinely played attractive football, ball on the ground and it was a joy to watch. It's almost like someone aimed a gun to his head and told him to stop it all. 

[mozo]

13 minutes ago, TheCulturalBomb said:

The first half of that season we genuinely played attractive football, ball on the ground and it was a joy to watch. It's almost like someone aimed a gun to his head and told him to stop it all. 

Yeah even with the Flint, Pack, Reid spine we had a slump after that Wolves game and LJ lost his way after that. The streaks since then have been less convincing. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

This situation is nothing new. Having the best players is not the issue, it’s having the best ones to play together in the right positions and formation, which is where a Manager or coach comes into their own.

When Jack Charlton got picked for England in 1965, rumour has it that he said to Alf Ramsey that it has taken a while but at last Alf had recognised the best central defender in England (well after Bobby Moore). Apparently Alf responded that Jack wasn’t even the 2nd or 3rd best English central defender, but he was the best one for the job he wanted done. In other words, he knew what the team was missing and picked a player to fit that hole.

By contrast, LJ is clueless. Every week it’s churn and change. No one can ever predict his team or work out how it is supposed to function. Chimps left alone at a typewriter for long enough might by random produce a work to standard comparison to Shakespeare, but it doesn’t make them literary geniuses. Likewise LJ might occasionally hit on a winning formula, but he will never be a top notch coach and I can guarantee that he could stay here another 20 years and he still wouldn’t get us anywhere, however much money Steve Lansdown throws at the project.

Sven had a touch of that in him, picking players you wouldn’t normally think should play.  Chris Powell was excellent in the few appearances he made under him, Trevor Sinclair on the wing for his industry, etc.

11 minutes ago, mozo said:

Yeah even with the Flint, Pack, Reid spine we had a slump after that Wolves game and LJ lost his way after that. The streaks since then have been less convincing. 

Other circumstances too, Wright got injured, Pisano rushed back, then injured, Wright having to play through it.  Then Pato got ill.  Then Diedhiou returned from injury.  The team became different.

[Lez]

4 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Hate to say it again but it might be for the greater good for us to lose all our remaining games...

If playoffs are gone I would be happy with this if it meant he was gone....part of me thinks that even if we lose all our games LJ will still be in charge come next season.

[Portland Bill]

6 hours ago, AberRed said:

I feel like this is a point that doesn't get mentioned a lot but probably should.

Watching us play can feel like a chore sometimes. A lot of our games are dull as ditch water. 

I said this 3 years ago, I haven’t been since. I just could not face watching the rubbish served up. I’ve been consistent in saying that he will never ever achieve anything with Bristol City. One person has taken the love of watching City away from me, he is arrogant, wont accept any responsibility, has no plan whatsoever and generally has never been good enough to manage my club. 

[Northern Red]

6 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

It gets mentioned all the time. 

Indeed. It's often the main subject of discussion on here, in various ways.

[One Team]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

What a great post, both your perception/revisitation of how LJ hits upon a winning formula, and your post-lockdown change of heart really sums up my feelings too.

Despite the wretched form since December (bar the 4 wins in a row) LJ had plenty of goodwill in the bank for me given the level and variety of winning away over the past 18 months (believe it or not we're still 4th in the away league table), so I didn't come out of the break with any particular desire for change, but these two matches have been my Emperors New Clothes moment too.  

We've been down the "streaky Lee" road many many times before, but each additional time we do it, the circumstances and his interventions give us new control data to help us learn more about what the real variables are and what affect Lee has. And like you I've never felt more convinced that LJ hasn't got a winning strategy, just a bloody minded perseverance with experimentation.

On reflection (and we hear it in all the PR) LJ is a great organiser, so when something works he can meticulously prepare the team to rinse and repeat for as long as we can sustain a winning run, but if the opposite is true, he is no leader and cannot intervene meaningfully to inspire the players, nor is he a master tactician who can identify a winning strategy for the assets at his disposal.

This season has been the worst of the past 3 years (with 7 points less than the same point in the last two), but more than that it's easily the worst football of LJ's 5 seasons, despite the largest and most talented squad of players he's ever had. I rarely understand what we're trying to do besides punt channel balls forward to find runners, while being consistently unable to pass the ball.

I refuse to believe a competent coach with a clear strategy could not get more out of our squad, and certainly far more out of the past two games. Not only is it appalling that we lost them both, but I don't share the minor optimism about a 5 minute opening today - we're evidently starved of proper football as in my opinion the football is somewhere between non-existent and abysmal.

We came out of pre-season, fell apart in our first game, Lee changed half the team, and on we went. We came out of our mid-season break, fell apart in our first game, and changed half the team.  The message is clear: given time to plan, both LJ's strategy and his evaluation of his players, is flawed. But it's what he then does which really scares me - experiment, experiment, experiment.

Experimentation is not leadership. It's the same every season. Hitting upon a winning formula is the product of luck and always seems to be a painful process of elimination until he is left with a team that wins. In LJ's interview today he said "I saw signs we could go on a run". The revealing, subconscious admission is he doesn't know how to win but he'll know how to keep repeating it.

It seems an age ago being stood in freezing rain at Huddersfield watching our worst display since the 5-0 at Preston 4 years ago (it really was that awful, despite the relatively modest margin of defeat). But in football terms it's "four weeks" ago. I have to remind myself of that because on reflection it's wholly unacceptable we haven't won a match since then. The lot of them owe it to us.

And then I reflect on how many different teams "he can trust" LJ's put out since then, how many different players he has used, and ideas he has employed - magnified by the mid-season break. In circumstances where the players owe us a result, to consistently not have one tells me that in this latest run of blind experimentation, it's the players that don't trust LJ, not the other way round.

Just this. 

If you read nothing else today read this post by @Olé.

Take a bow son, absolutely spot on.

[Midlands Robin]

The biggest problem he's got is that he's run out of momentum.

History shows that for teams that have popped out of League 1 (the third tier) and then gone on to make the next step into the prem, they only stay in the championship for a short time.

Wigan, Wolves,Swansea, Watford, Man City, Bournemouth, Hull, Norwich, Sheffield Utd and Leicester to name a few examples. We even came close to doing it under GJ following the same route. Most teams who come down from the top flight unless they are basket cases such as Portsmouth, normally bounce back in a few seasons.

Huddersfield and Brighton took 5 seasons from promotion from League 1 to promotion to the Prem, which is the exact point we are at now.

The only teams that have spent a longer time trying to crack the prem are Wednesday, Forrest, Leeds and Brentford. Preston came up with us in 15 of course.

LJ will get to the end of the season. I don't doubt that for a second. The excuse will be the disruption caused by Covid and how close the start of the new season will be to the end of this one. I have concerned though that, with more momentum lost we will struggle next season and we'll find ourselves battling it out in the bottom third. The last thing I want to see is that "hire a manager" "manager keeps us up" "manager is rubbish next season" "fire a manager" "hire a manager" "manager keeps us up" and so on and on cycle that we alwasy seem to slide into when we reach this level.

We have to get some momentum back behind the club. The spirit in the group of players on the pitch and the feeling back in the fans. That is not going to happen under the current manager unless he somehow managers to produce the sort of whole season that could match the first half of 17/18.

I'd rather he went now or at the very latest at the ened of this season because I'm certain that it's going to end painfully next season. The last thing we then need is for a promotion from within the dressing room because we've been down that road so many times before. What is more than certain though is that LJ has missed the boat. He has had as good a chance as any City manager before him in the last three seasons and he's fluffed his lines on every occasion.

[Coppello]

5 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Hate to say it again but it might be for the greater good for us to lose all our remaining games...

Lee Johnson v OTIB:

 

 

[handballbygordonparr]

6 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Just please sack him. JM can see the season out

Please No. JM must go too. 'Defensive Coach' my ass

[BrizzleRed]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

What a great post, both your perception/revisitation of how LJ hits upon a winning formula, and your post-lockdown change of heart really sums up my feelings too.

Despite the wretched form since December (bar the 4 wins in a row) LJ had plenty of goodwill in the bank for me given the level and variety of winning away over the past 18 months (believe it or not we're still 4th in the away league table), so I didn't come out of the break with any particular desire for change, but these two matches have been my Emperors New Clothes moment too.  

We've been down the "streaky Lee" road many many times before, but each additional time we do it, the circumstances and his interventions give us new control data to help us learn more about what the real variables are and what affect Lee has. And like you I've never felt more convinced that LJ hasn't got a winning strategy, just a bloody minded perseverance with experimentation.

On reflection (and we hear it in all the PR) LJ is a great organiser, so when something works he can meticulously prepare the team to rinse and repeat for as long as we can sustain a winning run, but if the opposite is true, he is no leader and cannot intervene meaningfully to inspire the players, nor is he a master tactician who can identify a winning strategy for the assets at his disposal.

This season has been the worst of the past 3 years (with 7 points less than the same point in the last two), but more than that it's easily the worst football of LJ's 5 seasons, despite the largest and most talented squad of players he's ever had. I rarely understand what we're trying to do besides punt channel balls forward to find runners, while being consistently unable to pass the ball.

I refuse to believe a competent coach with a clear strategy could not get more out of our squad, and certainly far more out of the past two games. Not only is it appalling that we lost them both, but I don't share the minor optimism about a 5 minute opening today - we're evidently starved of proper football as in my opinion the football is somewhere between non-existent and abysmal.

We came out of pre-season, fell apart in our first game, Lee changed half the team, and on we went. We came out of our mid-season break, fell apart in our first game, and changed half the team.  The message is clear: given time to plan, both LJ's strategy and his evaluation of his players, is flawed. But it's what he then does which really scares me - experiment, experiment, experiment.

Experimentation is not leadership. It's the same every season. Hitting upon a winning formula is the product of luck and always seems to be a painful process of elimination until he is left with a team that wins. In LJ's interview today he said "I saw signs we could go on a run". The revealing, subconscious admission is he doesn't know how to win but he'll know how to keep repeating it.

It seems an age ago being stood in freezing rain at Huddersfield watching our worst display since the 5-0 at Preston 4 years ago (it really was that awful, despite the relatively modest margin of defeat). But in football terms it's "four weeks" ago. I have to remind myself of that because on reflection it's wholly unacceptable we haven't won a match since then. The lot of them owe it to us.

And then I reflect on how many different teams "he can trust" LJ's put out since then, how many different players he has used, and ideas he has employed - magnified by the mid-season break. In circumstances where the players owe us a result, to consistently not have one tells me that in this latest run of blind experimentation, it's the players that don't trust LJ, not the other way round.

Brilliant post and absolutely sums up what’s wrong at the moment and the futility with persevering with LJ any longer.

I think any remaining supporters still wanting to give LJ more time need to remember that old saying.

A sign of madness is to keep persevering with something that.clearly isn’t working, but expect a different result!

 

[RobintheRed Red]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

....and I suspect he’s pissed off quite a few players in the process.

well hes well an truly pissed me off says something when your grandsons dont want to come anymore .

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Midlands Robin said:

The biggest problem he's got is that he's run out of momentum.

History shows that for teams that have popped out of League 1 (the third tier) and then gone on to make the next step into the prem, they only stay in the championship for a short time.

Wigan, Wolves,Swansea, Watford, Man City, Bournemouth, Hull, Norwich, Sheffield Utd and Leicester to name a few examples. We even came close to doing it under GJ following the same route. Most teams who come down from the top flight unless they are basket cases such as Portsmouth, normally bounce back in a few seasons.

Huddersfield and Brighton took 5 seasons from promotion from League 1 to promotion to the Prem, which is the exact point we are at now.

The only teams that have spent a longer time trying to crack the prem are Wednesday, Forrest, Leeds and Brentford. Preston came up with us in 15 of course.

LJ will get to the end of the season. I don't doubt that for a second. The excuse will be the disruption caused by Covid and how close the start of the new season will be to the end of this one. I have concerned though that, with more momentum lost we will struggle next season and we'll find ourselves battling it out in the bottom third. The last thing I want to see is that "hire a manager" "manager keeps us up" "manager is rubbish next season" "fire a manager" "hire a manager" "manager keeps us up" and so on and on cycle that we alwasy seem to slide into when we reach this level.

We have to get some momentum back behind the club. The spirit in the group of players on the pitch and the feeling back in the fans. That is not going to happen under the current manager unless he somehow managers to produce the sort of whole season that could match the first half of 17/18.

I'd rather he went now or at the very latest at the ened of this season because I'm certain that it's going to end painfully next season. The last thing we then need is for a promotion from within the dressing room because we've been down that road so many times before. What is more than certain though is that LJ has missed the boat. He has had as good a chance as any City manager before him in the last three seasons and he's fluffed his lines on every occasion.

The list of clubs is interesting but varied. I agree on your momentum point btw- had we made the playoffs in 2017/18, the Cup run and some other reasonable Cup runs in prior seasons would have been fantastic for what is 3 do or die Cup ties basically! That could've been the season. I don't even think the second half in parts was that bad, but only in parts- we threw away 4 very avoidable points for a start in Sunderland and Hull games!

Anyway the list of clubs:

• Wolves- Parachute Payments still, was 4 x years them- easy, easy to bounce back from League One, but also worth noting super agent and yes very strong recruitment and management.
• Wigan- Parachute Payments x 4 to cushion the blow. By the time of relegation, well they're big enough and well resourced enough to be lower midtable in this League IMO or a yoyo club anyway.
• Watford and Man City. First were bankrolled with a former legend back, perfect storm. Second was a big club getting 30-35k in the third tier- always likely to bounce back and momentum can drive a side on.
• Norwich- Bigger in modern times, 3rd tier a real shock for them- third tier for the first time since god knows! Momentum helped take them up, think Southampton did similar the following years- both strong turnovers by Championship level too, at that time especially.
• Sheffield United- Once in a generation manager.
• Leicester- Major club, and of course no surprise they went down- it was our old friend Hollowhead!  Only season in League One in their history, always likely to bounce back, strongly supported.

Swansea had a unique philosophy, began with latter days Jackett, but Martinez a catalyst and played their way up, Martinez, Sousa brought some caution but technically and Rodgers brought it all together- moving to the Liberty and extra attendances had them ahead of us in turnover for a while but happy to double check! Bournemouth overspent see FFP and their accounts, Hull were reasonably big spending but not hugely- don't underestimate the higher turnover potentially though, stadium- though if there was a time to push it was Jan 2008 when FFP was a good few years off, spend £10m that window and I think we go up- though perhaps we used Adebola a bit much and strayed away from the shape that did us so much good for the first few months, the Noble behind Byfield/Trundle. I digress! There were no two identical cases in all those you list tbh.

Leicester too, quite possibly broke FFP- almost forgot to add.

[Oh Louie louie]

Adebola was the reason we got in the play offs.

We wouldnt have got anywhere playing trundle and byfield every week.

Progress? Who thinks we are any better off than 3 years ago?

Somebody did a excellent thread on here about what a manager should do in 3 years.

[Major Isewater]

14 hours ago, Red Exile said:

I had a quick look at decade on decade progress - from the end of the GJ era.

In 2009-10 we finished 10th with 63 points.

As a long-term project I wonder what SL makes of that? Ten years and all that off-the pitch investment.

We have a better class of scapegoat these days .

[Major Isewater]

14 hours ago, JonDolman said:

He's making the most bizarre decisions I've seen in all his time here.

Did I overrate him? Yes I think I did.

He tries so many different things, one thing is bound to eventually work.

So that 17/18 442 with the 2 false 9s was something he tried because he kind of had to. 

Give him millions to have a back up for Fam and it would not have happened as he would probably not have ever tried it.

Around about Ipswich away last season he had tried different things that were not working. Many of us calling for a more solid 4141 type formation for a long time. He goes to that in the second half of that game and we look good and win the game.

We then go on an amazing run based around that system. He guessed it during a game, it worked and our new way of playing would carry on for a few months where we went on a great run.

If we look back at when we survived in the 16/17 season. Some of us were saying drop Tomlin for months. I was saying it for ages, not all agreed but some did as Tomlin was absolutely awful. When you're losing every game and you have a fat man who doesn't care, it is pretty obvious to drop him!

Brownhill played one second half on the right of a midfield 4. Night game I think, can't remember who against. We won the game I think. Really can't remember the details but I just remember how good he looked there.

It was clear how good he was in that position. LJ took several weeks or even months, can't remember how long. But he finally played Brownhill there with Pack and Smith in the middle. Dropped Tomlin FINALLY, and played a proper hard working forward that supported Tammy in Matty Taylor. 

He'd probably tried everything else by that point. Was our survival that season down to a lucky guess from LJ? It seems so as otherwise why wouldn't he just go with that side months earlier!

I could probably go on. But I'm beginning to think even the good parts of LJs time here have happened because he is so random in what he does and eventually something clicks. 

In some ways it's not a bad strategy if you don't know what you're doing!

It should be that he can see what will work and he makes it happen.

We can see what can and can't work and we don't have the benefit of seeing it in training. He has! Yet he still gets it horribly wrong. 

I did not expect to change my mind on LJ after 2 games since coming back. But what is he doing. I really think I may have been wrong about his ability as a head coach.

I don't see whatever it is I thought he had before.

All I can say is even the struggling teams in this division look better than we do . They are all , bar none , more organised and purposeful. 
 

It is a scandal that with all the money and time that LJ and company have had that we still don’t have a style of play or a first team that picks itself .

Can I have a new Championship quality striker please Uncle Steve my old one is broken ? 
 

There you go Lee , no problem if you don’t use him or if you don’t get promotion.

My biggest worry is that we fall back . We have spent huge amounts, historically unheard of at City and are nowhere near .

I think most other coaches would have something more to show for all this backing.Lee is way out of his depth.

Mr Lansdown, for pity’s sake end this charade.

 

[Davefevs]

11 hours ago, Midlands Robin said:

 

LJ will get to the end of the season. I don't doubt that for a second. The excuse will be the disruption caused by Covid and how close the start of the new season will be to the end of this one. I have concerned though that, with more momentum lost we will struggle next season and we'll find ourselves battling it out in the bottom third. The last thing I want to see is that "hire a manager" "manager keeps us up" "manager is rubbish next season" "fire a manager" "hire a manager" "manager keeps us up" and so on and on cycle that we alwasy seem to slide into when we reach this level.

We have to get some momentum back behind the club. The spirit in the group of players on the pitch and the feeling back in the fans. That is not going to happen under the current manager unless he somehow managers to produce the sort of whole season that could match the first half of 17/18.

I'd rather he went now or at the very latest at the ened of this season because I'm certain that it's going to end painfully next season. The last thing we then need is for a promotion from within the dressing room because we've been down that road so many times before. What is more than certain though is that LJ has missed the boat. He has had as good a chance as any City manager before him in the last three seasons and he's fluffed his lines on every occasion.

Last week I was suggesting that the group of players left at the end of this season is still a good set, my worry is the spirit within the group.  But I feel that can be instantly repaired with a new head-coach / manager.

Can you imagine training last week?  Having had 4 weeks of of a mini pre-season working on 4411/4231 for Blackburn, LJ rocks up at some point last week (perhaps having watched Chelsea Man City) and starts laying down 433....”we are gonna play like a Liverpool lads”.

Niki - you’re gonna be Allison (Bents whispers sadly “does that make me Karius”)

Jack - you can be Trent (sniggers in the back ground)

Jay - you’re Robertson 

Ash - you’re Dejan (Williams replies, “I ain’t that bad”)

Bakes - you can be Virgil (Pato in the background....”what the one from Thunderbirds, watch your strings don’t get cut”)

Korey - captain Hendo

Callum - you’re tall and slim, you can be Fabinho (Nagy in perfect English “but he cannot tackle!”, LJ “yeah, Fabinho is a bit of a liability”, Nagy “no, gaffer, I meant Callum”

Han-Noah - who do you wanna be, The Ox or Gini? (Doesn’t answer as he’s speed dialling his dad”

Andi - you’ve got Mo’s pace (Pato quips...”he ain’t got a left foot gaffer”)

Naks - you’ve got a nice smile, you can be Firminho

Benik - you’re Mane

Fam at this point realises he’s Divock and not starting, and starts gesticulating to Macca in Senegalese.  Macca looks at Lee and says, “okay, ha ha, did you see the boys reaction, what are we really working on, nice one gaffer”

Lee gives Macca a steely stare.

10 hours ago, handballbygordonparr said:

Please No. JM must go too. 'Defensive Coach' my ass

SL has always said that when Macca came back he’d be a manager here one day.  I’ve seen nothing to suggest that, but you never know, he could be being suppressed by LJ.  Personally, I don’t believe in promoting from within when a manager sacked.  It’s just kicking the can down the road.  Ranieri > Shakespeare was short lived upside.

10 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Those last words have been at the core of what has been wrong for a very long time. But the willingness to continually sign/change players , blaming the tools if you like, has allowed a masking of the real weaknesses at the cub. If coaches and players do not believe and trust in  each other you are going nowhere fast. This charade has been going on too long . He has been making it up from day one and only now have all the excuses and bs come to a point that everyone can be in no doubt. It is just a shame that people who would have had a much clearer view of this much earlier chose to keep the dark glasses on and not dig too deep. Change is required now, not for the sake of change, but to improve the club. First though they need to decide what it is we are aiming for and for example if we are really serious about creating a bottom to top footballing culture/identity/strategy . That will determine the profile of whom we need to bring in. Sticking with LJ will only create catastrophic consequences on and off the field. He is finished and his time is up. 

This is so vital.

I fear for a relegation struggle next season, we are well over the peak.

it really is no good banding around names like Hughton (or Houghton!!!) until we know the plan (assumes LJ even goes).

[mozo]

11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Other circumstances too, Wright got injured, Pisano rushed back, then injured, Wright having to play through it.  Then Pato got ill.  Then Diedhiou returned from injury.  The team became different.

Absolutely, and I said above that LJ "couldn't sustain success with all the many challenges that a head coach faces".

So the question is, was Johnson dealt an impossible hand that season (and subsequent seasons), or did he simply fail to navigate the bumps along the way.