What happened to the master plan?

[Bristol is red]

Now, if my memory serves me correct, there was a plan spoken of by the club a few seasons ago that throughtout the age groups, they would play in a similar way to the first team, firstly, to allow the young players an easy integration into the first team when they make the step up and secondly, to have a distinctive style of play, a 'Bristol City' way and this was to echo the likes of Swansea (before prem relegation), Southampton, Brentford and Sheffield United's successes as the way forward.

 

Well, what happened? 2017/2018 season we looked like it was coming together, lots of ups and downs and the season tailed off but we had a style of play and tried keeping to it, it all looked promising and it was coming to fruition.  Since then, this has seemingly been abandoned, constant switching of formations and players, what we had seems to have got lost, forgotten, and turned to directionless football as the framework seems to have been torn away and forgotten about.

Is the club incapable of sticking to a laid out plan? Has the club or LJ simply lost their way with it? Has it all got lost with LJ trying to be a master tactician or succumbed to the pressures of success rather than sticking to it, for risk of failure?

It just screams of the 'five pillars' disappearing act. Massively preached to start with then nearly as quickly forgotten.  Unlike the clubs mentioned above, we just can't seem to see something through? Genuinely baffled.

[Lez]

Impossible for consistency when the first team manager changes his system every week.

Weve gone from not having enough clubs in the bag to too many.....and I doubt the club can afford to mirror that through the age groups.

 

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, Bristol is red said:

Now, if my memory serves me correct, there was a plan spoken of by the club a few seasons ago that throughtout the age groups, they would play in a similar way to the first team, firstly, to allow the young players an easy integration into the first team when they make the step up and secondly, to have a distinctive style of play, a 'Bristol City' way and this was to echo the likes of Swansea (before prem relegation), Southampton, Brentford and Sheffield United's successes as the way forward.

 

Well, what happened? 2017/2018 season we looked like it was coming together, lots of ups and downs and the season tailed off but we had a style of play and tried keeping to it, it all looked promising and it was coming to fruition.  Since then, this has seemingly been abandoned, constant switching of formations and players, what we had seems to have got lost, forgotten, and turned to directionless football as the framework seems to have been torn away and forgotten about.

Is the club incapable of sticking to a laid out plan? Has the club or LJ simply lost their way with it? Has it all got lost with LJ trying to be a master tactician or succumbed to the pressures of success rather than sticking to it, for risk of failure?

It just screams of the 'five pillars' disappearing act. Massively preached to start with then nearly as quickly forgotten.  Unlike the clubs mentioned above, we just can't seem to see something through? Genuinely baffled.

You are correct.

I pointed out on here several seasons ago it was bollocks. That does not make me clever. It was easily apparent the football when watching the academy and U teams bore little relation to that of Lee Johnsons XI.

How could any coherent developmental practice mirror Lee Johnsons seven formations this season? Mr Johnson has been making it up.

[SuperRed]

Poor and weak leadership allowing Johnson / Ashton to sign player after player that fit no particularly system and style of play. Not surprising when Jon Lansdown has been left with day to day responsibility. That said, I wouldn’t have much more faith if it was still Steve who was responsible. 

[Three Lions]

Is the club incapable of sticking to a laid out plan? Has the club or LJ simply lost their way with it? Has it all got lost with LJ trying to be a master tactician or succumbed to the pressures of success rather than sticking to it, for risk of failure?

Lot of ?? but can anybody say what it was this plan was? Anybody?

1/How was the team going to play?

The team have lost IT. Got IT back. LJ talks a lot but never actually says what the big IT was. He and his coaches cant explain what City;s identity is!!!

[Dredd]

Went the same way as the 5 pillars

[RedRock]

1 hour ago, SuperRed said:

Poor and weak leadership allowing Johnson / Ashton to sign player after player that fit no particularly system and style of play. Not surprising when Jon Lansdown has been left with day to day responsibility. That said, I wouldn’t have much more faith if it was still Steve who was responsible. 

Think this is where it’s not just LJ but the whole strategy that needs looking at.

 

I suspect MA and his team of ‘talent’ spotters identify a player. Their priority, I suspect, is potential profit. 

LJs priority should be team plan. Is the player an upgrade for the role to be performed? Does he fit and strengthen the team unit?

 

What we appear to have created is a monster.

Quite who’s to blame, I’m not 100% sure. 

 

The fact that we haven’t a discernible identity, shape, pattern of play, complete absence of cohesion and fluidity has to be LJs fault. However, his defence maybe that MA buys these random players and either ‘sells’ them to LJ as something they are not or applies pressure on him to agree to purchase them. 

Whatever, it’s a total shambles. The players are confused, disillusioned, uncommitted and just going through the motions. The only two to come out of today’s absolute garbage are Afobe -not ours and bizarrely taken off - and the keeper - who looks like he’ll be off in a couple of weeks.  

 

Whatever the reasoning behind CoDs inclusion in the team would reveal a lot in terms of what must be going on behind the scenes. Is LJ trying to prove a point to someone? 

 

 

 

[The Batman]

How we thought the 5 pillars would look vs what they actually look like

[Eddie Notgetinya]

It all comes down to the management. This squad could achieve with the right man in charge. Look at Forest. Basket case club over the last decade with average players, they have turned their fortunes with one good/lucky managerial appointment. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Agreed though last few years under Maribakis I think they've been moving in the right direction even pre Lamouchi. 

Nottingham Forest a good example however. I don't see their squad as wildly or vastly superior to ours. I see ours as or should be in the current League legitimate top 6, mainly 5th or 6th and with a style of play to match. That's perhaps where we should be.

Where we are is heading to midtable obscurity/bottom half boredom, and with baffling tactics, odd selections and no discernibly consistent or recognisable setup. Never mind master plan! 

[Fuber]

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

Think this is where it’s not just LJ but the whole strategy that needs looking at.

 

I suspect MA and his team of ‘talent’ spotters identify a player. Their priority, I suspect, is potential profit. 

LJs priority should be team plan. Is the player an upgrade for the role to be performed? Does he fit and strengthen the team unit?

 

What we appear to have created is a monster.

Quite who’s to blame, I’m not 100% sure. 

 

The fact that we haven’t a discernible identity, shape, pattern of play, complete absence of cohesion and fluidity has to be LJs fault. However, his defence maybe that MA buys these random players and either ‘sells’ them to LJ as something they are not or applies pressure on him to agree to purchase them. 

Whatever, it’s a total shambles. The players are confused, disillusioned, uncommitted and just going through the motions. The only two to come out of today’s absolute garbage are Afobe -not ours and bizarrely taken off - and the keeper - who looks like he’ll be off in a couple of weeks.  

 

Whatever the reasoning behind CoDs inclusion in the team would reveal a lot in terms of what must be going on behind the scenes. Is LJ trying to prove a point to someone? 

 

 

 

If LJ buckles to a non-footballing CEO's opninon on a player, at all, then he's in the wrong job imo.

 

Even them if you take into account the profit argument of the above, Wells, Afobe, Bentley, nor Weimann would have ever been signed.

[RedRock]

6 minutes ago, Fuber said:

If LJ buckles to a non-footballing CEO's opninon on a player, at all, then he's in the wrong job imo.

 

Even them if you take into account the profit argument of the above, Wells, Afobe, Bentley, nor Weimann would have ever been signed.

Agree, in part. However, Bentley was being promoted as an England keeper by Lee a few months back, no doubt trying to raise his profile/value.

Wells, I suspect, was an SL/MA inspired gamble having been stung by criticism of missed opportunities in previous seasons (to cover for Afobe’s absence). 

Think Weimann could have been an investment, but alongside many others has failed to develop. 

 

Finally, I don’t think everything has been as harmonious as the Club portrays in terms of off-field relationships for several seasons. 

 

Really would love to find the reasoning behind CoDs selections. The Oxford connection, stalled contract talks, enhanced offers, then constant selection when woefully out-of-form.  There must be a back story.

[Olé]

6 hours ago, RedRock said:

Really would love to find the reasoning behind CoDs selections. The Oxford connection, stalled contract talks, enhanced offers, then constant selection when woefully out-of-form.  There must be a back story.

Almost certainly "he's looked good in training". It's always the way with LJ. He's a training ground coach so overvalues those who perform to his instructions in training. We have heard a lot about how players need 30 sessions to get to grips with his "complex" instructions, so there is probably also a self-inflated opinion of these training drills that overvalues those who do well in them and undervalues the evidence of his own eyes in actual match situations.

O'Dowda can do my drills really well so I will keep believing that he will put it together in a match to prove me right, and I will keep persisting because I desperately need to prove my methods work. We know this is the case because we also know the opposite is true - at the other extreme it's why certain new signings under LJ have consistently been left out or loaned out, despite little or no match proof of their ability, only on the strength of their training.

As a comparison - and I am not advocating Colin - Warnock barely turns up to training so picks a team of winners on matchday based solely on his ability to motivate and lead them, and knowledge of their willingness in match situations to respond. It's the other extreme and it doesn't always work - it's emotional and combustible - but it at least offers few surprises, unlike LJ's repeated training ground planning gone wrong, "team I can trust" episodes.

[054123]

7 hours ago, Fuber said:

If LJ buckles to a non-footballing CEO's opninon on a player, at all, then he's in the wrong job imo.

 

Even them if you take into account the profit argument of the above, Wells, Afobe, Bentley, nor Weimann would have ever been signed.

The Nhaki Wells signing puzzled me at the time.

His age, the fee, his likely high wages, quite simply, why?

He was never going to fit into Johnson’s team.

A panic buy.

[RedRock]

43 minutes ago, Olé said:

Almost certainly "he's looked good in training". It's always the way with LJ. He's a training ground coach so overvalues those who perform to his instructions in training. We have heard a lot about how players need 30 sessions to get to grips with his "complex" instructions, so there is probably also a self-inflated opinion of these training drills that overvalues those who do well in them and undervalues the evidence of his own eyes in actual match situations.

O'Dowda can do my drills really well so I will keep believing that he will put it together in a match to prove me right, and I will keep persisting because I desperately need to prove my methods work. We know this is the case because we also know the opposite is true - at the other extreme it's why certain new signings under LJ have consistently been left out or loaned out, despite little or no match proof of their ability, only on the strength of their training.

As a comparison - and I am not advocating Colin - Warnock barely turns up to training so picks a team of winners on matchday based solely on his ability to motivate and lead them, and knowledge of their willingness in match situations to respond. It's the other extreme and it doesn't always work - it's emotional and combustible - but it at least offers few surprises, unlike LJ's repeated training ground planning gone wrong, "team I can trust" episodes.

‘Nail’ and ‘head’ come to mind.

An emotional, natural leader vs a textbook, pretender. 

 

Always thought that people who worked amazingly hard and all hours, had encyclopaedic knowledge would be good appointments. Wrong. Working ‘smart’ was a far better attribute. Managers who could ‘smart’ work, be motivational and inspiring have the high performing teams. 

Sorry Lee. I still respect hard workers and those who give their all, but leadership can’t be learnt from coaching manuals and management training courses.  

 

Managers like Warnock are masters at it and probably use FA Coaching Manuals as toilet paper. 

[MATT BCFC]

The plan seems to be buying players purely in order to sell them on  is to be honest. Doesn't seem to be much thought of whether they fit a system or we actually need a player in that position.

[oldstandrobin]

7 minutes ago, RedRock said:

‘Nail’ and ‘head’ come to mind.

An emotional, natural leader vs a textbook, pretender. 

 

Always thought that people who worked amazingly hard and all hours, had encyclopaedic knowledge would be good appointments. Wrong. Working ‘smart’ was a far better attribute. Managers who could ‘smart’ work, be motivational and inspiring have the high performing teams. 

Sorry Lee. I still respect hard workers and those who give their all, but leadership can’t be learnt from coaching manuals and management training courses.  

 

Managers like Warnock are masters at it and probably use FA Coaching Manuals as toilet paper. 

Spot on. In my 'working' days I started as a Salesman for a major Photocopying company. In our training we were told to work smart and not long. This sunk into my brain and I followed that code and earned a shed load while not even working 8 hours a day. When I started my own company, I looked for that type of salesman as well and my most productive  guys were the ones that didn't even work a Friday but had achieved targets by working smart. Whilst not an edict for every occupation, I draw a comparison to Professional  Footballers as they too enjoy a lot of freedom time and results are based on what they do on the field. I imagine that LJ's head is 'crammed' with football knowledge but he cannot relay it to his 'salesmen' who are confused to how he wants the job done. Yesterday's 7 changes should highlight his weaknesses.

[Wrongagain]

Is it the coaching though? We struggle to get the players we want, those we don’t get - why? Those that come go backwards - loanees full of promise can’t get in the team - leaders never fit in

what’s wrong at the gate? Only thing I can think of is the self important coach who takes the blame for nothing, throws young enthusiastic players under the bus and blames the whole world for his woes- it’s bloody football not rocket science - use the right tools for the job, put the wrench in the best place do the job - get rid of the clown and get a manager in.

[Natchfever]

8 hours ago, Fuber said:

If LJ buckles to a non-footballing CEO's opninon on a player, at all, then he's in the wrong job imo.

 

Even them if you take into account the profit argument of the above, Wells, Afobe, Bentley, nor Weimann would have ever been signed.

Excellent point although I guess you need a blend of home grown alongside seasoned pros.

I just think Johnson is a poor "football manager" and probably a crap coach because listening to the number of times he says players didn't do what they were told, he clearly can't get the message across. He is also a terrible man manager as evidenced by his constant throwing under buses of players.

Having said all that, I don't think he is 100% to blame. I suspect that some signings haven't been his choices and he hasn't had the ability to make them into revenue generating assets. Therefore, whilst Ashton has received plaudits (probably rightly) for turning prospects into relatively high value sales, I do wonder who drove the Kasey Palmer deal for instance.

I have said it before, but it amazes me that the club will happily spend £1m per annum in wages for a player yet scrimps relatively speaking on the head coach and CEO, who are in my opinion the most important people.

Maybe both need to be replaced, or at the very least Johnson and his entourage has to go asap, be replaced by a superior coach/manager, Ashton's role rewritten (if he has the major say in transfers) to ensure there is no conflict with the coach and a proven scouting team headhunted.

[Natchfever]

33 minutes ago, MATT BCFC said:

The plan seems to be buying players purely in order to sell them on  is to be honest. Doesn't seem to be much thought of whether they fit a system or we actually need a player in that position.

Brentford seem to make it work, as do some foreign teams though.

We have the wrong people executing the plan, with possibly blurred accountabilities.

[MATT BCFC]

10 hours ago, RedRock said:

Think this is where it’s not just LJ but the whole strategy that needs looking at.

 

I suspect MA and his team of ‘talent’ spotters identify a player. Their priority, I suspect, is potential profit. 

LJs priority should be team plan. Is the player an upgrade for the role to be performed? Does he fit and strengthen the team unit?

 

What we appear to have created is a monster.

Quite who’s to blame, I’m not 100% sure. 

 

The fact that we haven’t a discernible identity, shape, pattern of play, complete absence of cohesion and fluidity has to be LJs fault. However, his defence maybe that MA buys these random players and either ‘sells’ them to LJ as something they are not or applies pressure on him to agree to purchase them. 

Whatever, it’s a total shambles. The players are confused, disillusioned, uncommitted and just going through the motions. The only two to come out of today’s absolute garbage are Afobe -not ours and bizarrely taken off - and the keeper - who looks like he’ll be off in a couple of weeks.  

 

Whatever the reasoning behind CoDs inclusion in the team would reveal a lot in terms of what must be going on behind the scenes. Is LJ trying to prove a point to someone? 

 

 

 

Think you sum things up perfectly here. I am by no means LJs biggest fan but I am not sure sacking him is the only answer. 

We need to have an identity and style we want to play to have any success at this level with our budget. 

I feel like we have got lucky this season and a few individual players qualities have got us a number of results we probably didn't deserve. Just look at the XG stats.

[MATT BCFC]

3 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Brentford seem to make it work, as do some foreign teams though.

We have the wrong people executing the plan, with possibly blurred accountabilities.

Brentford have a style and philosophy of play and buy players who fit into that. Would say that's the main difference. 

[WarksRobin]

2 minutes ago, MATT BCFC said:

Brentford have a style and philosophy of play and buy players who fit into that. Would say that's the main difference. 

Precisely. We have 7 philosophies, often with 2 or 3 competing on the pitch at the same time. No wonder the players struggle to execute. What we need is clarity of vision.

If LJ is still here at the start of next season he needs to start again, stick to a system and build around it.

[Natchfever]

4 minutes ago, MATT BCFC said:

Brentford have a style and philosophy of play and buy players who fit into that. Would say that's the main difference. 

Agreed, and the right people here could make that happen.

[Bristol Oil Services]

2 hours ago, 054123 said:

The Nhaki Wells signing puzzled me at the time.

His age, the fee, his likely high wages, quite simply, why?

He was never going to fit into Johnson’s team.

A panic buy.

Had we known in January that the season would be paused in March, and restarted in June, thus meaning Afobe would be available for the final fifth of the season, would we then have spent so much on a 29 year old (Wells)? 

If not, then we have been undone a bit by the covid 19 disruption, in that we have two (new) players where we needed one (upfront) and are short of quality in midfield. The money spent on Wells could've been spent on midfield, had we known the season would be paused for three months.

[054123]

3 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Had we known in January that the season would be paused in March, and restarted in June, thus meaning Afobe would be available for the final fifth of the season, would we then have spent so much on a 29 year old (Wells)? 

If not, then we have been undone a bit by the covid 19 disruption, in that we have two (new) players where we needed one (upfront) and are short of quality in midfield. The money spent on Wells could've been spent on midfield, had we known the season would be paused for three months.

Regardless of Covid-19, it still felt wrong. Sadly we’d built a team that simply did not create chances for a ‘striker’ and had had Instead adopted a style of play which needed a Fam style figure head.

In truth, it’s been going wrong fir a couple of seasons.

[Phileas Fogg]

13 hours ago, Bristol is red said:

Now, if my memory serves me correct, there was a plan spoken of by the club a few seasons ago that throughtout the age groups, they would play in a similar way to the first team, firstly, to allow the young players an easy integration into the first team when they make the step up and secondly, to have a distinctive style of play, a 'Bristol City' way and this was to echo the likes of Swansea (before prem relegation), Southampton, Brentford and Sheffield United's successes as the way forward.

 

Well, what happened? 2017/2018 season we looked like it was coming together, lots of ups and downs and the season tailed off but we had a style of play and tried keeping to it, it all looked promising and it was coming to fruition.  Since then, this has seemingly been abandoned, constant switching of formations and players, what we had seems to have got lost, forgotten, and turned to directionless football as the framework seems to have been torn away and forgotten about.

Is the club incapable of sticking to a laid out plan? Has the club or LJ simply lost their way with it? Has it all got lost with LJ trying to be a master tactician or succumbed to the pressures of success rather than sticking to it, for risk of failure?

It just screams of the 'five pillars' disappearing act. Massively preached to start with then nearly as quickly forgotten.  Unlike the clubs mentioned above, we just can't seem to see something through? Genuinely baffled.

I think failure to replace players instrumental to our style with similar style' players has been a big issue.

We didn't replace Kodjia, Reid or Webster with similar style players or upgrade them. All 3 were pretty crucial to defining how we wanted to play. 

Take Webster for example (who I appreciate is a tall order to replace), Kalas is a good player in his own right but isn't a ball playing centre half. 

[Son of Fred]

13 hours ago, SuperRed said:

Poor and weak leadership allowing Johnson / Ashton to sign player after player that fit no particularly system and style of play. Not surprising when Jon Lansdown has been left with day to day responsibility. That said, I wouldn’t have much more faith if it was still Steve who was responsible. 

This...in a nutshell...........

Too many cooks??

Hope you have your tin hat on..?

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, RedRock said:

‘Nail’ and ‘head’ come to mind.

An emotional, natural leader vs a textbook, pretender. 

 

Always thought that people who worked amazingly hard and all hours, had encyclopaedic knowledge would be good appointments. Wrong. Working ‘smart’ was a far better attribute. Managers who could ‘smart’ work, be motivational and inspiring have the high performing teams. 

Sorry Lee. I still respect hard workers and those who give their all, but leadership can’t be learnt from coaching manuals and management training courses.  

 

Managers like Warnock are masters at it and probably use FA Coaching Manuals as toilet paper. 

Could you explain what coaching manual Mr Johnson follows? 

Neil Warnock is far more text book than Lee Johnson. Neil Warnock's methodology is far more evident than Lee Johnsons.  

[RedRock]

No doubt the FA one that has delivered years of success for the National Team and a succession of managers since Ramsey -bar  Venebales - who can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. 

 

You think Warnock cut his management teeth on coaching manuals? He rarely attends training sessions!

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Could you explain what coaching manual Mr Johnson follows? 

Neil Warnock is far more text book than Lee Johnson. Neil Warnock's methodology is far more evident than Lee Johnsons.  

As above