What happened to the master plan?

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think failure to replace players instrumental to our style with similar style' players has been a big issue.

We didn't replace Kodjia, Reid or Webster with similar style players or upgrade them. All 3 were pretty crucial to defining how we wanted to play. 

Take Webster for example (who I appreciate is a tall order to replace), Kalas is a good player in his own right but isn't a ball playing centre half. 

Don't think he was signed to replace Webster tbh- that said his technical stats,  at least pass accuracy at Fulham were excellent. Seems not to be a ball carrying centre half though certainly.

Kodjia is 3 and a half years ago now. Reid more recent- but you adapt. We're IMO built for a 4-3-3 or some variant of.

Benkovic past performance shows he is capable of being a ball playing CB, Moore had shown signs.

Last season arguably he could've sought to replicate as best we could that 4-4-1-1. Some were sold, some were injured. 

                 Maenpaa

Wright Kalas Webster Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh DaSilva 

                  Paterson

                  Weimann

Fielding was injured.

Wright at RB and Kelly at LB replicates Wright and Magnússon. Compact and versatile- not that Wright is anything like my first choice at RB in anything but a very specific setup. Kelly likely an upgrade on Magnússon in that position though the latter bad his uses.

Webster-Kalas a clear technical as a pair upgrade on Flint-Baker. Webster could step into midfield too. 

Brownhill right, Pack CM. Smith was injured so Walsh maybe? DaSilva though not a perfect replacement in the Bryan role.

Paterson-Weimann is trickier than Paterson-Reid. Paterson had an okay second half of season. Sort of system though in which if you change one key element it all gets unbalanced tbh. The full backs in the great month or 2 of 2017/18 were nobody's first choice but for a time forced by injury, excellent system players.

[harvey54]

4 hours ago, MATT BCFC said:

The plan seems to be buying players purely in order to sell them on  is to be honest. Doesn't seem to be much thought of whether they fit a system or we actually need a player in that position.

That's because we're being owned and run by a businessman, not a football man. Every City fan knows that we have been crying out for an experienced leader on the pitch but we keep buying young talent to generate saleable income. It don't work when you keep selling your best players every season. 

[Phileas Fogg]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't think he was signed to replace Webster tbh- that said his technical stats,  at least pass accuracy at Fulham were excellent. Seems not to be a ball carrying centre half though certainly.

Kodjia is 3 and a half years ago now. Reid more recent- but you adapt. We're IMO built for a 4-3-3 or some variant of.

Benkovic past performance shows he is capable of being a ball playing CB, Moore had shown signs.

Last season arguably he could've sought to replicate as best we could that 4-4-1-1. Some were sold, some were injured. 

                 Maenpaa

Wright Kalas Webster Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh DaSilva 

                  Paterson

                  Weimann

Fielding was injured.

Wright at RB and Kelly at LB replicates Wright and Magnússon. Compact and versatile- not that Wright is anything like my first choice at RB in anything but a very specific setup. Kelly likely an upgrade on Magnússon in that position though the latter bad his uses.

Webster-Kalas a clear technical as a pair upgrade on Flint-Baker. Webster could step into midfield too. 

Brownhill right, Pack CM. Smith was injured so Walsh maybe? DaSilva though not a perfect replacement in the Bryan role.

Paterson-Weimann is trickier than Paterson-Reid. Paterson had an okay second half of season. Sort of system though in which if you change one key element it all gets unbalanced tbh. The full backs in the great month or 2 of 2017/18 were nobody's first choice but for a time forced by injury, excellent system players.

Kodjia, Reid and Webster are all the sort of players you can build your style of play and team around though which was my point. We never replaced them with like-for-like stylistic players.

We got a bit lucky with Abraham coming in when Kodjia left in that he was equally as good if not better. I don't think he was necessarily predicted to be as good as he was that season as we were looking for other striker targets after Kodjia left but didn't bring any in IIRC.

[havanatopia]

18 hours ago, Bristol is red said:

Now, if my memory serves me correct, there was a plan spoken of by the club a few seasons ago that throughtout the age groups, they would play in a similar way to the first team, firstly, to allow the young players an easy integration into the first team when they make the step up and secondly, to have a distinctive style of play, a 'Bristol City' way and this was to echo the likes of Swansea (before prem relegation), Southampton, Brentford and Sheffield United's successes as the way forward.

 

Well, what happened? 2017/2018 season we looked like it was coming together, lots of ups and downs and the season tailed off but we had a style of play and tried keeping to it, it all looked promising and it was coming to fruition.  Since then, this has seemingly been abandoned, constant switching of formations and players, what we had seems to have got lost, forgotten, and turned to directionless football as the framework seems to have been torn away and forgotten about.

Is the club incapable of sticking to a laid out plan? Has the club or LJ simply lost their way with it? Has it all got lost with LJ trying to be a master tactician or succumbed to the pressures of success rather than sticking to it, for risk of failure?

It just screams of the 'five pillars' disappearing act. Massively preached to start with then nearly as quickly forgotten.  Unlike the clubs mentioned above, we just can't seem to see something through? Genuinely baffled.

Arhhh, so is that what the 'PILLARS' was all about? you have one in each corner of the pitch, one in the middle which, i suppose is Korey, and then fill in the gaps with other pillars. Perhaps it was well designed for a 5 a side team only. 

[Cowshed]

6 hours ago, RedRock said:

No doubt the FA one that has delivered years of success for the National Team and a succession of managers since Ramsey -bar  Venebales - who can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. 

 

You think Warnock cut his management teeth on coaching manuals? He rarely attends training sessions!

As above

Mr Warnock is structured, logical, pragmatic … FA teaching is highly structured, logical and pragmatic. Mr Warnock in many senses is text book. Its clear what his approach is.

Coaching badges are an international framework, they do not tell you how to play the game.

I asked what coaching manual Mr Johnson is following.  What model of play is Lee Johnson using, what coaching philosophy? It appears he is following no obvious path and parallel. If Mr Johnson is following a coaching manual, its his, and his only.

 

[RedRock]

Accept your greater knowledge of FA coaching manuals.

I would still contend that Warnock’s

20 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Mr Warnock is structured, logical, pragmatic … FA teaching is highly structured, logical and pragmatic. Mr Warnock in many senses is text book. Its clear what his approach is.

Coaching badges are an international framework, they do not tell you how to play the game.

I asked what coaching manual Mr Johnson is following.  What model of play is Lee Johnson using, what coaching philosophy? It appears he is following no obvious path and parallel. If Mr Johnson is following a coaching manual, its his, and his only.

 

Accept your greater knowledge of FA coaching manuals.. 

I would still contend that Warnock’s unique selling point is not his coaching or even extensive knowledge of the intricacies of the modern game, but his character and emotional intelligence. Aside from being a great motivator, he’s a sly old fox. Uses every trick - not contained in the FA coaching manual - to gain advantage over the opponents and officials.

He’s well smart and that’s why he’s been a success. 

[Cowshed]

On 29/06/2020 at 17:42, RedRock said:

Accept your greater knowledge of FA coaching manuals.. 

I would still contend that Warnock’s unique selling point is not his coaching or even extensive knowledge of the intricacies of the modern game, but his character and emotional intelligence. Aside from being a great motivator, he’s a sly old fox. Uses every trick - not contained in the FA coaching manual - to gain advantage over the opponents and officials.

He’s well smart and that’s why he’s been a success. 

You referred to the FA coaching manuals again. Psychology is part of coaching units. Process the word mentioned by a poster answering this post is what much of FA teaching is. 

Warnock is a creature of process. He is methodical. His football is hardly complex although his counter pressing ideas can be unusual. As a non fan I can point at obvious principles that underpin his football. These principles are clear and consistent. His teams display that word Mr Johnson likes - identity. Neil Warnock's teams are excellent examples of coaching method. He is following how people learn, how simplicity and repetition is important. Its modern coaching.

Lee Johnson is the supposedly modern coach. He is Mr multi multi formation. The principles that underpin hs football are not obvious. The identity his teams have is not apparent to fans who watch his team. The modern process is not evident. He is anything but text book

The opening poster did pose a question? If Mr Johnson is this modern text book coach what has happened to the master plan? Further questions do Bristol City have a joined up youth development process at all? Does Mr Johnson have any commitment at all to this process, its coaches, its kids and their emotional investment?  

 

[Major Isewater]

On 29/06/2020 at 10:08, Moments of Pleasure said:

Had we known in January that the season would be paused in March, and restarted in June, thus meaning Afobe would be available for the final fifth of the season, would we then have spent so much on a 29 year old (Wells)? 

If not, then we have been undone a bit by the covid 19 disruption, in that we have two (new) players where we needed one (upfront) and are short of quality in midfield. The money spent on Wells could've been spent on midfield, had we known the season would be paused for three months.

Good point but we were crying out for a quality Championship striker to consolidate our top six position and even without the COVID situation we didn’t know how Afobe would be after his ACL operation.

Wells was meant to be the missing piece of the jigsaw and , in fairness to him , he is still scoring even in our shipwreck of form.

As for our midfield, a quality Norwegian international was signed to shore it up along with the return of the experienced Smith. I don’t recall too much of a clamour for midfielders in January ! 
 

 

[mozo]

5 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Good point but we were crying out for a quality Championship striker to consolidate our top six position and even without the COVID situation we didn’t know how Afobe would be after his ACL operation.

Wells was meant to be the missing piece of the jigsaw and , in fairness to him , he is still scoring even in our shipwreck of form.

As for our midfield, a quality Norwegian international was signed to shore it up along with the return of the experienced Smith. I don’t recall too much of a clamour for midfielders in January ! 
 

 

Yeah I think Wells has scored 3 now and he's probably only had 4/5 decent chances!

[Sixtyseconds]

The master plan.

Its something like Barcelona.

Or was it Swansea.

Southampton?

But Lads spending years learning the way.

Players coming into the team knowing the way.

The Bristol City way.

Its a modern way.

The idea that there is something guiding the way.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated - John Lyndon.

[RedRock]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Good point but we were crying out for a quality Championship striker to consolidate our top six position and even without the COVID situation we didn’t know how Afobe would be after his ACL operation.

Wells was meant to be the missing piece of the jigsaw and , in fairness to him , he is still scoring even in our shipwreck of form.

As for our midfield, a quality Norwegian international was signed to shore it up along with the return of the experienced Smith. I don’t recall too much of a clamour for midfielders in January ! 
 

 

I think a number of us thought we should have recalled Walsh and/or Morrell in January. 

Anyhow, what do we know.

LJ is paid obscene amounts of money to make the right calls and he must have known the quality, power and strength of depth we had in that department had all other Champoinship teams quaking in their boots. As it’s been proven. Not.

[Out of his pie crust]

The masterplan? Cracking track that and still available on YouTube I believe. Prefer noels vocals tbf

[exAtyeoMax]

On 29/06/2020 at 18:04, billywedlock said:

I think it was Bradley Orr that did an interview with the City podcast guys, excellent podcast as it is. They asked him about Warnock, and it was clear the training ground is not his active area. He left that to the coaches, and just observed when he did turn up. He looked for strong characters in his team, and got the senior players to police the others, almost self regulation. He set out his plan, got the coaches to work on it , made sure he had the right players to deliver it, then , finally, got them all wound up and firing. But he did work to a process, and knew where his role was best placed and let others deliver the rest. It is worth listening the podcast. The gas do a great job. 

who on the podcast described his first impression of Bobby Robson as Sunday League? Was that Bradley too? Interesting insight…was very complimentary of him as a manager all the same

[Three Lions]

How many lads developed from the academy will be in LJ's team tonight??

[Sixtyseconds]

How many lads developed from the academy will be in LJ's team tonight?

One.

Which is a lot for LJ the great Developer.

Its like La Masia.

[eardun]

On 28/06/2020 at 19:32, Bristol is red said:

Now, if my memory serves me correct, there was a plan spoken of by the club a few seasons ago that throughtout the age groups, they would play in a similar way to the first team, firstly, to allow the young players an easy integration into the first team when they make the step up and secondly, to have a distinctive style of play, a 'Bristol City' way and this was to echo the likes of Swansea (before prem relegation), Southampton, Brentford and Sheffield United's successes as the way forward.

 

Well, what happened? 2017/2018 season we looked like it was coming together, lots of ups and downs and the season tailed off but we had a style of play and tried keeping to it, it all looked promising and it was coming to fruition.  Since then, this has seemingly been abandoned, constant switching of formations and players, what we had seems to have got lost, forgotten, and turned to directionless football as the framework seems to have been torn away and forgotten about.

Is the club incapable of sticking to a laid out plan? Has the club or LJ simply lost their way with it? Has it all got lost with LJ trying to be a master tactician or succumbed to the pressures of success rather than sticking to it, for risk of failure?

It just screams of the 'five pillars' disappearing act. Massively preached to start with then nearly as quickly forgotten.  Unlike the clubs mentioned above, we just can't seem to see something through? Genuinely baffled.

Talking of the 17/18 season, I’ve just watched the whole of the City v Man Utd match again and it does bring home that we have lost our way. We played even better that night than I even remembered. Our composure on the ball, in tight spaces, was excellent - against top quality opposition. We had Reid on his own up front with Paterson in behind. We should have stuck with this ‘busy bee’ mobile style in my view. That said, it did remind how much we miss Reid, Bryan and Pack. The Bryan run, Pack pass and Bryan shot for his goal is a thing of beauty. 

 

[Davefevs]

On 29/06/2020 at 06:46, Olé said:

Almost certainly "he's looked good in training". It's always the way with LJ. He's a training ground coach so overvalues those who perform to his instructions in training. We have heard a lot about how players need 30 sessions to get to grips with his "complex" instructions, so there is probably also a self-inflated opinion of these training drills that overvalues those who do well in them and undervalues the evidence of his own eyes in actual match situations.

O'Dowda can do my drills really well so I will keep believing that he will put it together in a match to prove me right, and I will keep persisting because I desperately need to prove my methods work. We know this is the case because we also know the opposite is true - at the other extreme it's why certain new signings under LJ have consistently been left out or loaned out, despite little or no match proof of their ability, only on the strength of their training.

As a comparison - and I am not advocating Colin - Warnock barely turns up to training so picks a team of winners on matchday based solely on his ability to motivate and lead them, and knowledge of their willingness in match situations to respond. It's the other extreme and it doesn't always work - it's emotional and combustible - but it at least offers few surprises, unlike LJ's repeated training ground planning gone wrong, "team I can trust" episodes.

Para 1.  Very interesting point

Para 2.  I played with several players who were great in training when your teammates aren’t trying to lump you in the air.  On a match day it’s a different thing.  A failing for COD, but more importantly LJ, who can’t translate training pitch / 10ft Tv onto a real pitch.  Did you see COD when he fouled Wickham (Wednesday) having lost control.  He looked petrified that Wickham was gonna get up and smack him.  On Wednesday v Forest, Cash kicks him in first 5 seconds, job done really, even if not deliberate.  COD then bottles the next 3 pressing / tackling opportunities (2 Cash 1 Lolley).  Whether it’s the ankle injury from 17/18 I don’t know, but he has no heart for a challenge.

Para 3. The opposite of para 1....it’s about knowing who will give you their all when it matters....on a pitch.

[Cowshed]

8 hours ago, eardun said:

Talking of the 17/18 season, I’ve just watched the whole of the City v Man Utd match again and it does bring home that we have lost our way. We played even better that night than I even remembered. Our composure on the ball, in tight spaces, was excellent - against top quality opposition. We had Reid on his own up front with Paterson in behind. We should have stuck with this ‘busy bee’ mobile style in my view. That said, it did remind how much we miss Reid, Bryan and Pack. The Bryan run, Pack pass and Bryan shot for his goal is a thing of beauty. 

 

Mr Johnson has had four years to develop further/recruit players with the skill sets to manage what is inevitable in football. He has not done this because there is no master plan/he simply isn't skilled enough to implement it.

[steviestevieneville]

Nothings happened to the master plan. I think it’s one Oasis finest songs . 

[Out of his pie crust]

10 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Nothings happened to the master plan. I think it’s one Oasis finest songs . 

Indeed

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

I thought the master plan ended when Hitler shot himself.