Mark Ashton - getting an easy ride?

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

Just wondering why Ashton isn’t getting some flak.  I would describe our signing record overall as mediocre.  Teams have that been promoted in recent years have got at least 80% of their signings spot on and most have spotted bargains from both the UK and abroad. 

LJ obviously has to mould players into a team but can we really not lay any blame at Ashton’s door?  Interested to hear views on this from both Johnson Inners and Johnson Outers 

Give the guy a break..

It can't be easy being Bob Monkhouse's love child..

[Pieman]

As MA is CEO of Bristol City FC he is ultimately responsible for everything that happens under his stewardship. Probably why he only shows his face when things are going well and allows the rest to take the heat. Whatever the opinions on LJ, or anything else to do with this club, if it’s Mark Ashton decision then maybe he’s the change which is required?

[Bristol Oil Services]

I thought we had decided LJ was at fault? Can we bloomin' decide, once and for all, so we can finally, decisively, unequivocally, apportion our misguided blame and opprobrium/abuse, and know who to demand be sacked. 

Cheers.

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, SuperRed said:

Whilst I want Johnson to go and agree he’s not getting the most out of the squad, I’m not so confident as yourself that it’s that great. It’s unbalanced, not suiting a particular system or style of play, and I think the midfield is closer to being bottom 6 rather than top 6. 

My issue with Ashton is that whilst he may have got decent fees for all of our great assets, he’s effectively messed up the “trading model” he goes on about by overseeing poor signings that don’t have the same potential to be sold for £8 million + in the future. He was lucky he had Reid, Bryan, Kelly and Flint already here to fund large parts of our spending. If we were to hypothetically sale the entire squad in the next window I don’t think we have that many players we’d make a profit on in terms of transfer fee. Without that funding, a new manager (hopefully) will have difficulty revamping the squad as necessary for a promotion push next season and it will be hard for them to implement a style with such an unbalanced squad. 

Unbalanced is because of “clubs in the bag” approach, and I blame LJ for asking and MA for tolerating it.

Why does this happen?

30 minutes ago, chinapig said:

You certainly have more insight than I have but even uninformed fans ought to be able to see the situation. Whatever his job title, Ashton is the de facto Director of Football, though he lacks the expertise for the role. Most fans seem to have missed him talking about "my database of players" . .. not "our database ....".

As long as he generates big profits on transfers he can do as he pleases though as the strategy is more a financial one than a playing one imo.

LJ's job title is Head Coach for a reason - i.e.he does not have the authority or control of a Manager.

Fans can have their wish lists of big name managers but none of those would accept the limits on their authority, in the unlikely event they would join us and we could afford them.

Nevertheless, LJ has lost control of the area he does have authority over and has reached the end of the line I think.

Because the CEO (formerly COO) isn’t a DoF.  He might’ve have been an apprentice goalkeeper, but he is an administrator, a pretty good one in fairness, but he is not a football expert.

26 minutes ago, Rob k said:

On the pitch failure - a bit over the top don’t you think? Anybody would think we were Certs for relegation

Mark Ashton has left his head coach with a midfield not fit for the top half of L1 let alone the championship 

If LJ doesn’t like the constraints of a Championship budget or the lines of command, then he should say so, and be prepared to walk from his job if so.  A lot of talk is made of Pack going, but if you look at the timeline of transfers in the summer, we signed Massengo and Palmer in the week before, Nagy on the same day as Pack....sounds like a bit of balancing of the books....we’d already brought in Szmodics and Rowe.  Pack certainly wasn’t looking to move on (from someone I know)....so if LJ didn’t want to get rid, why accept the incoming players.

The midfield was good enough to get us into the top 6 at various points throughout this season.  You could give LJ some credit for that

[Rob k]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Unbalanced is because of “clubs in the bag” approach, and I blame LJ for asking and MA for tolerating it.

Why does this happen?

Because the CEO (formerly COO) isn’t a DoF.  He might’ve have been an apprentice goalkeeper, but he is an administrator, a pretty good one in fairness, but he is not a football expert.

If LJ doesn’t like the constraints of a Championship budget or the lines of command, then he should say so, and be prepared to walk from his job if so.  A lot of talk is made of Pack going, but if you look at the timeline of transfers in the summer, we signed Massengo and Palmer in the week before, Nagy on the same day as Pack....sounds like a bit of balancing of the books....we’d already brought in Szmodics and Rowe.  Pack certainly wasn’t looking to move on (from someone I know)....so if LJ didn’t want to get rid, why accept the incoming players.

The midfield was good enough to get us into the top 6 at various points throughout this season.  You could give LJ some credit for that

You could say LJ should get far more credit than he is getting currently 

[BRISTOL86]

48 minutes ago, Rob k said:

On the pitch failure - a bit over the top don’t you think? Anybody would think we were Certs for relegation

Mark Ashton has left his head coach with a midfield not fit for the top half of L1 let alone the championship 

We could easily finish in the bottom half given our form. So yes I’d say this season we have certainly failed, barring a remarkable turnaround in the final games.

SL said he wanted top half. Top ten is looking like it could be a stretch, so I can’t see how it can be seen as a success.

In a broader sense the ‘failure’ in my view is a failure to nail down any kind of coherent formation, system, game plan, identity in the last 3-4 years given the talented players we’ve had both now and past. 

I think there’s something quite wrong in our coaching and tactical setup. Only negative goal difference in the top half speaks volumes and have been making schoolboy mistakes at the back for season upon season with no sign of addressing the underlying problems. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

3 minutes ago, Rob k said:

You could say LJ should get far more credit than he is getting currently 

Start a thread, mate. I'll back you up

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Rob k said:

You could say LJ should get far more credit than he is getting currently 

He deserves some credit....he’s not useless, I accept that.  I just think his weaknesses are showing up more and more....and at a time in the season, given a break to really hone his strategy, he’s failing

I will happily eat humble pie if he suddenly turns this around with 5 or 6 wins and a late charge.

Although if it’s done on the back of a set system, players playing in set positions, cohesive football, etc I’ll probably say “I told you so”.

[The Coach]

5 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

We could easily finish in the bottom half given our form. So yes I’d say this season we have certainly failed, barring a remarkable turnaround in the final games.

SL said he wanted top half. Top ten is looking like it could be a stretch, so I can’t see how it can be seen as a success.

In a broader sense the ‘failure’ in my view is a failure to nail down any kind of coherent formation, system, game plan, identity in the last 3-4 years given the talented players we’ve had both now and past. 

I think there’s something quite wrong in our coaching and tactical setup. Only negative goal difference in the top half speaks volumes and have been making schoolboy mistakes at the back for season upon season with no sign of addressing the underlying problems. 

SL stated last summer expectation for 19/20 season was minimum playoffs. Nothing less.

 

I am feeling more confident now LJ will be gone when either it is mathematically impossible, or when the season finishes. Most probably the latter. 

[Rob k]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He deserves some credit....he’s not useless, I accept that.  I just think his weaknesses are showing up more and more....and at a time in the season, given a break to really hone his strategy, he’s failing

I will happily eat humble pie if he suddenly turns this around with 5 or 6 wins and a late charge.

Although if it’s done on the back of a set system, players playing in set positions, cohesive football, etc I’ll probably say “I told you so”.

I think we both know that’s not going to happen!!

3 minutes ago, Redpool said:

SL stated last summer expectation for 19/20 season was minimum playoffs. Nothing less.

 

I am feeling more confident now LJ will be gone when either it is mathematically impossible, or when the season finishes. Most probably the latter. 

I think it could be as early as this weekend if we lose again 

[BRISTOL86]

8 minutes ago, Redpool said:

SL stated last summer expectation for 19/20 season was minimum playoffs. Nothing less.

 

I am feeling more confident now LJ will be gone when either it is mathematically impossible, or when the season finishes. Most probably the latter. 

I’ve got nothing against him and I wanted to see him succeed, but it’s not happening here for him for whatever reason. 

To be doing only marginally better than the likes of Reading and Wigan with the tools at his disposal is failure IMO. We’re only a couple of points closer to the top six as we are to Wigan in 17th and it’s simply not good enough with the squad he’s got. 

Incremental improvement was for me just enough reason to not rock the boat, but when that creeps into regression it’s hard to keep justifying the status quo. 

[RedRock]

We may have the best squad in umpteen years, but we have the worst midfield I’ve known in 50 years.

It’s just shockingly bad, and then some. 

How many times, over how many seasons I have heard about the need for ‘leaders’ and the ‘need to win our individual battles’? Whoever it is recruiting our ‘midfield generals’ needs to have a word with themselves and I suspect that maybe more ‘good investment’ MA than LJ. 

However, MA on the outgoings side has a fair amount of ‘credit’ due to some pretty obscene fees achieved and good sales timings of our best players. We just seem then to fritter it all away on a whole load of highly questionable  purchases. 

[Wiltshire robin]

1 hour ago, B-Rizzle said:

Is it? Look how weak our central midfield is.

Smith - likely to be released in a few weeks yet is currently the best we’ve got.

Massengo - potential to be a great player but still super young and a lot to expect of him starting and influencing every game.

Nagy - combo of injuries, home sickness means he hasn’t featured.

 

I get what you are saying but both Nagy and massengo looked quality first few games until they had their traits coached out of them .

[John Galley]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

I’ve made my views on Ashton very clear in the past. 
 

I’m in the LJ out camp, but I also have some sympathy for him with Ashton overseeing recruitment. 
 

Ashton, to his credit, has done very well with outgoing transfer fees. 
But his incoming record is scattergun and wasteful. 
He removed the chief scout as he wants control over it all and doesn’t want someone else’s qualified opinion to interfere with his own unqualified opinion, where he’s known for only using a small pool of agents, who get very well remunerated. Make of that what you will. 
 

It would’ve been interesting to see what LJ might’ve done had he been able to appoint his own chief scout rather than working under Ashton’s remit. We won’t ever find out but I think our recruitment would’ve been vastly different (for the better). 
 

That said, LJ had to do better with what he’s been given, and I feel his time is now up. 

LJ still has an input on who he wants and agrees to these players coming to the club, it’s just the negotiation, fees and wages that Ashton deals with. This is the way the club wanted to go with a coach, that is why Steve Cotterel was got rid of because he was a manager and wanted control of everything but the board had to give their approval.

[North of the River]

Quick comment on the midfield. How many shots on goal this season have come from Smith and Massengo., or from any of our midfield players ( Brownhill excepted)? I bet you could count the total on one hand.  On his debut Massengo looked like a great box to box player, someone soon stopped that!

[Street red]

Have we got a squad full of great individual talent but does this team play as squad, Cotts built a team of mates that produced.

It concerns me a little that we've signed talented players a large squad that don't bond the same, Doesn't this come down to Ashton and Johnson to recruit the right player for Johnson to build a team that's bonds and this comes down to being consistent in squad selection etc etc ...So to me it's down to both of them to get a squad collective including promoting youth to the first team ..A mixture of youth and experience..It goes on and for me to many loan players that don't always want the same thing and have been a complete waste of time.

[Wrongagain]

3 hours ago, Redwhitepurple said:

Majority of signings over past 4 years, have been shocking

No it’s the coaching and Integration that have been shocking - should be set up to play to strengths not LJs constant punts with players in the wrong position -  Sunday a perfect example of a situation that happens all too often

[GrahamC]

26 minutes ago, John Galley said:

LJ still has an input on who he wants and agrees to these players coming to the club, it’s just the negotiation, fees and wages that Ashton deals with. This is the way the club wanted to go with a coach, that is why Steve Cotterel was got rid of because he was a manager and wanted control of everything but the board had to give their approval.

This line gets trotted out all the time, but I really do struggle to believe it.

When we signed Adam Nagy for instance with about a day of the window left, how can anyone honestly say LJ knew much (if anything) about him?

I think a much more likely scenario is LJ says the areas that need strengthening & Ashton then does the deal, a completely different scenario to that whereby LJ picks the actual player.

I do think Ashton has been successful at maximising the income we have received but cannot accept his overall record on incoming moves is that great, far too many mediocre ones alongside a few very good deals.

I think he is fireproof (& like @Davefevs think he is only loyal to himself) so expect he is here for the duration but do think his role in a squad that I don’t believe is anywhere near as good as some on here clearly think, does need questioning.

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

This line gets trotted out all the time, but I really do struggle to believe it.

When we signed Adam Nagy for instance with about a day of the window left, how can anyone honestly say LJ knew much (if anything) about him?

I think a much more likely scenario is LJ says the areas that need strengthening & Ashton then does the deal, a completely different scenario to that whereby LJ picks the actual player.

I do think Ashton has been successful at maximising the income we have received but cannot accept his overall record on incoming moves is that great, far too many mediocre ones alongside a few very good deals.

I think he is fireproof (& like @Davefevs think he is only loyal to himself) so expect he is here for the duration but do think his role in a squad that I don’t believe is anywhere near as good as some on here clearly think, does need questioning.

We’ve heard too many times that “LJ has the final say on players” for me to think LJ let’s MA decide the players.

Dean Holden was brought in specifically to give a LJ more time looking at recruitment.

How many times did they travel to Italy to watch whoever it was out of Magnússon, Pisano or Djuric?  Pretty sure it was during those visits that they spotted one of the others.

Perhaps LJ has reined that back a bit.

If he’s allowing players to be bought by MA without his full due diligence, then more fool him.  Again, if he’s not happy with the arrangement / command structure, then walk away.  If he’s happy to trust MA, then shut up and get on with it without moaning.

Re Nagy, I am surprised he thought he could come in and instantly replace Pack.  That’s poor transition thinking / succession planning imho.

I tend to have little sympathy for people, especially those on £500k+ per annum, moaning about things, when there’s an opportunity to show some balls and back yourself.  I know he’ll have a standard of living to maintain, but if he genuinely believes he is as good as he gives us the impression he is, he won’t be long out of a job.

That’s my principled, somewhat harsh view.

And I’ve done it, walked out of a job (mostly on principle), with no job to go to, a family to support, because I believed how I was being asked to work wasn’t fair, I challenged them, they didn’t change.  I walked.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Isn't the Ashton model just how the game is heading though, in a lot of cases- continuity, coach interchangeable etc.

I do wonder if managers who can't adapt to this new reality will find their work drying up. I think the model of Ashton is the future- for better or worse.

I maintain, our squad is better than what we show- if LJ can't manage them, perhaps find someone who can. I think we are or should be strong playoff contenders- talking 5th/6th. Much more cohesive than we are too.

[reddoh]

4 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Just wondering why Ashton isn’t getting some flak.  I would describe our signing record overall as mediocre.  Teams have that been promoted in recent years have got at least 80% of their signings spot on and most have spotted bargains from both the UK and abroad. 

LJ obviously has to mould players into a team but can we really not lay any blame at Ashton’s door?  Interested to hear views on this from both Johnson Inners and Johnson Outers 

Just No.

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Isn't the Ashton model just how the game is heading though, in a lot of cases- continuity, coach interchangeable etc.

I do wonder if managers who can't adapt to this new reality will find their work drying up. I think the model of Ashton is the future- for better or worse.

I maintain, our squad is better than what we show- if LJ can't manage them, perhaps find someone who can. I think we are or should be strong playoff contenders- talking 5th/6th. Much more cohesive than we are too.

The talent evaluation (purposely didn’t say talent Id) needs a football man not an administrator. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The talent evaluation (purposely didn’t say talent Id) needs a football man not an administrator. 

Fair. Still I do think it's heading this way, structure probably varies from club to club. Would be interesting to see the backgrounds of sporting directors, football/business or somewhere in-between.

I do believe that in our case regardless of who picked them, the squad isn't performing at its maximum- let alone exceeding it. Is it perfect? No- but then most things are not. I don't think we're top 2, never have but playoff contenders- yeah.

[marcofisher]

3 hours ago, Rob k said:

On the pitch failure - a bit over the top don’t you think? Anybody would think we were Certs for relegation

Mark Ashton has left his head coach with a midfield not fit for the top half of L1 let alone the championship 

He brought in Henriksen, was highly rated and thought of when coming here. Still only 27, 100+ appearances in the Eredivisie for AZ, half a season in the PL for Hull and two more as a regular in the Championship. International midfielder too.

LJ knew he was lacking in match fitness, played him in 3/4 games (one of these we got an absolute whopping from WBA) and then fell out with him/binned him off/didn’t fancy him (as with many other players- delete as appropriate). We could see a player there from the Derby match, and it was obvious he would need a run of games to be consistent.

I struggle to believe a player about to be out of contract would not be hungry to play and earn a new one, whether it be at the loan club or elsewhere. Maybe he did not see a manager he liked in LJ.

I agree with you that the current midfield is League 1 standard. However, how can Mark Ashton be blamed for not bringing in players when if he does the coach will mismanage them horribly? 

[exAtyeoMax]

8 hours ago, chinapig said:

You certainly have more insight than I have but even uninformed fans ought to be able to see the situation. Whatever his job title, Ashton is the de facto Director of Football, though he lacks the expertise for the role. Most fans seem to have missed him talking about "my database of players" . .. not "our database ....".

As long as he generates big profits on transfers he can do as he pleases though as the strategy is more a financial one than a playing one imo.

LJ's job title is Head Coach for a reason - i.e.he does not have the authority or control of a Manager.

Fans can have their wish lists of big name managers but none of those would accept the limits on their authority, in the unlikely event they would join us and we could afford them.

Nevertheless, LJ has lost control of the area he does have authority over and has reached the end of the line I think.

Exactly, and that’s the problem, especially when you have an inexperienced ‘DoF’ in charge

[Sir Geoff]

Signings aside Ashton is culpable of giving 4 year contracts to COD and LJ last autumn. Utter (financial) madness.

[Major Isewater]

5 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Signings aside Ashton is culpable of giving 4 year contracts to COD and LJ last autumn. Utter (financial) madness.

COD is a gamble , we have all seen , all too rare, glimpses of the player he could be and he was about to walk away for nothing . Possibly he was offered a 3 year deal but wouldn’t sign and the extra year was the clincher. Right now it’s looking like poor business, maybe under a different coach that quality can come out. 

 I don’t like 4 year deals for players or managers but we have seen a pattern at the club of players coming in , taking a year to get up to speed, the second year doing it on a regular basis and just when we should be reaping the benefits they need to be sold or they leave for nothing so I see the logic . 

[Bristol Oil Services]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

We’ve heard too many times that “LJ has the final say on players” for me to think LJ let’s MA decide the players.

Dean Holden was brought in specifically to give a LJ more time looking at recruitment.

How many times did they travel to Italy to watch whoever it was out of Magnússon, Pisano or Djuric?  Pretty sure it was during those visits that they spotted one of the others.

Perhaps LJ has reined that back a bit.

If he’s allowing players to be bought by MA without his full due diligence, then more fool him.  Again, if he’s not happy with the arrangement / command structure, then walk away.  If he’s happy to trust MA, then shut up and get on with it without moaning.

Re Nagy, I am surprised he thought he could come in and instantly replace Pack.  That’s poor transition thinking / succession planning imho.

I tend to have little sympathy for people, especially those on £500k+ per annum, moaning about things, when there’s an opportunity to show some balls and back yourself.  I know he’ll have a standard of living to maintain, but if he genuinely believes he is as good as he gives us the impression he is, he won’t be long out of a job.

That’s my principled, somewhat harsh view.

And I’ve done it, walked out of a job (mostly on principle), with no job to go to, a family to support, because I believed how I was being asked to work wasn’t fair, I challenged them, they didn’t change.  I walked.

 

On 11 March this year, the Guardian ran some puff about us - "Mendes, Wilder and the SAS: How Lee Johnson has Bristol City on the rise" (cough) - in which Ben Fisher reported that Lee had been in Portugal at the end of last season, and had attended seven matches. And the Pereira loan came out of this.

In another piece a year or two before the same paper, in amongst some more very lovely, gentle reportage on us (the national media appear to completely ignore us when we are average or worse and they might need to write something critical, strange), reported that Lee had been in Verona watching games.

He also went to Germany quite recently I seem to remember; I'd imagine he took in a game or two while there.

Just a few examples of Lee getting out to see players live and being hands-on with recruitment. 

[Rob k]

11 hours ago, Street red said:

Have we got a squad full of great individual talent but does this team play as squad, Cotts built a team of mates that produced.

It concerns me a little that we've signed talented players a large squad that don't bond the same, Doesn't this come down to Ashton and Johnson to recruit the right player for Johnson to build a team that's bonds and this comes down to being consistent in squad selection etc etc ...So to me it's down to both of them to get a squad collective including promoting youth to the first team ..A mixture of youth and experience..It goes on and for me to many loan players that don't always want the same thing and have been a complete waste of time.

Cotts had the advantage of being a big fish in a small pond, we had the best side in that division by a country mile, it was a great season and i enjoyed it immensely, however we would have gone down under him, LJ has taken us to a different level and maybe it’s time for someone else to go again, if you ask me who i think from here who will go higher in the game as a coach/manager there will only be one winner 

[Abraham Romanovich]

A weakness for me has been the signing of technically gifted players from abroad who find it difficult to adapt to physicality of the championship.

We have become lightweight and easily bullied especially in midfield.

If these players had the same attitude as Aaron Wilbrahams we would be some team