Palmer - The Fear He Got It Wrong?

[Davefevs]

Just throwing it out there....is possible that LJ’s reluctance to play Palmer is because he NOW fears Palmer playing well and showing up his poor decision making.  The longer this has gone on the more stubborn he has become?

I really rate Palmer, but even then I don’t think he is the missing link.  He could be v.good, but if buy that skill you’ve got to accept the less good things that come with it.  I don’t think he’s not hardworking, but he is immature defensively.  He was disciplined away at Derby early this season when I thought he had one of his best games in a City shirt.

Other players need to take responsibility too.  By all means let him take it off the CBs on the halfway line, but don’t given him the ball 25 yards from our goal with a marker up his arse.  In this case, realise (our defenders need intelligence) that he doesn’t have to have it, and actually he’s dragged someone with him, creating space elsewhere.

He might get frustrated if he doesn’t get it, but coach him to understand that, explain to him where you want him on the ball.

Also, he looks like a player who needs minutes to find sharpness, get his legs going.  He was looking fitter with regular minutes earlier this season, but those tailed off.

Against Forest on Wednesday, he got the ball, moved 5 yards forward with in and then passed it constructively.  Ok, the shot was awful, but it bobbled as he hit it....but he generally looked to have a bit of confidence back.

Finally, having not had a great time here last season, what made him resign permanently?

- Johnson promises, have they been fulfilled...looks unlikely 

- Johnson stopping Swansea getting him

He worked hard on his fitness over the summer, but it does feel that he’s been poorly managed.

£3.5m is gonna look bad value under LJ, I think it needs a new head coach to get that value back.

[eardun]

Palmer has to start today I feel. It isn’t exactly working without him. He did look good when he came on on Weds. As Wells isn’t firing yet, I’d probably go 4-4-1-1 today with Palmer behind Afobe. Palmer can focus on attacking and his defensive weaknesses can be covered by the other midfielders. 

[LondonBristolian]

I think there is a tendency to talk up and romanticise players who don’t start based on what they could maybe do if they got a game.

Palmer is clearly an imperfect player. He is not consistent and has a lot of weaknesses to his game and we are far more guaranteed to play well with him in the side.

BUT we have a team of industrious workers who work hard and cover ground but are short on creativity and moments of inspiration. In games where teams defend deep against us, there have been times - like against forest - where we looked bright but could very clearly have gone five decades of Sundays without scoring and the moment Forest scored, a loss was all but guaranteed.

Palmer offers nothing more than a possibility something good might happen. But, with games as depressing, dreary and lacking inspiration as they are at the moment, that possibility counts for a hell of a lot.

Just now, LondonBristolian said:

I think there is a tendency to talk up and romanticise players who don’t start based on what they could maybe do if they got a game.

Palmer is clearly an imperfect player. He is not consistent and has a lot of weaknesses to his game and we are far more guaranteed to play well with him in the side.

BUT we have a team of industrious workers who work hard and cover ground but are short on creativity and moments of inspiration. In games where teams defend deep against us, there have been times - like against forest - where we looked bright but could very clearly have gone five decades of Sundays without scoring and the moment Forest scored, a loss was all but guaranteed.

Palmer offers nothing more than a possibility something good might happen. But, with games as depressing, dreary and lacking inspiration as they are at the moment, that possibility counts for a hell of a lot.

(Should have said “far from guaranteed to play well” in the second paragraph. Wish I could still edit things after posting!)

[ProfitInMyPocket]

I personally think hes overrated here. There is certainly talent but if he and all the management teams hes worked under (Blackburn, Derby and Us) can't get the most out of him then i'm not sure he will make it unless you make the whole team around him.

And i dont think hes that high of a quality to make the team round one person. We aren't the QPR team who made the team around Taarabt who was levels above what Palmer can provide.

A couple stepovers and a few good passes isn't enough. Consistency is key in this division and i don't think he's ever found that consistency.

[lager loud]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Also, he looks like a player who needs minutes to find sharpness, get his legs going.  He was looking fitter with regular minutes earlier this season, but those tailed off.

I think this is absolutely right. He’s more muscular than wiry, and this may be part of the reason he seems to have to work hard to get really sharp. Anyone who's played the game at any level knows it takes a few games to get up to full match fitness. KP will always struggle, I think, unless he gets a run in the team. He’s really only had bits and pieces for months now.

With Paterson back, I suspect LJ will always favour JP as the creative option, as he’s a busier bee.

I’m also not sure KP is the answer to our problems (certainly not on his own) but we’ve been so bad at creating opportunities I’d like him to have had more extended chances.

[Davefevs]

@LondonBristolian and @ProfitInMyPocket

@lager loud

I don’t disagree, no guarantees at all....but hope at least!

We spent £3.5m on him, we had him for 6 months beforehand.  What was the basis of the recruit, if there wasn’t a plan to fit him in....accentuate his pluses, mitigate his minuses?

I personally don’t care if he plays or not, if LJ has a cohesive system without him.

But when O’Dowda has played:

• 50% minutes more than Palmer (1530 vs 1016)
• more starts
• more subs
• same goals, less assists

you have to question why?

If you can only fit in one creative player out of the three, for the sake of some other deficiencies, at least pick Eliasson.

Here’s some stats for the three:

 

[extonsred]

21 minutes ago, eardun said:

Palmer has to start today I feel. It isn’t exactly working without him. He did look good when he came on on Weds. As Wells isn’t firing yet, I’d probably go 4-4-1-1 today with Palmer behind Afobe. Palmer can focus on attacking and his defensive weaknesses can be covered by the other midfielders. 

Sadly the other midfielders have not been up to it and supported the attack. Big reason for this seasons weaknesses!! 

[Red7]

23 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Palmer offers nothing more than a possibility something good might happen.

Doesn't stop Pato getting selected on a regular basis.

[Dr Balls]

We need a three man midfield of which one is creative. That role is crying out for Palmer, someone who looks to go forward, while others can cover defensively. However I don’t expect him to start today as LJ clearly favours Pato & CO’D.

[lager loud]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@LondonBristolian and @ProfitInMyPocket

@lager loud

I don’t disagree, no guarantees at all....but hope at least!

We spent £3.5m on him, we had him for 6 months beforehand.  What was the basis of the recruit, if there wasn’t a plan to fit him in....accentuate his pluses, mitigate his minuses?

I personally don’t care if he plays or not, if LJ has a cohesive system without him.

But when O’Dowda has played:

• 50% minutes more than Palmer (1530 vs 1016)
• more starts
• more subs
• same goals, less assists

you have to question why?

If you can only fit in one creative player, for the sake of some other deficiencies, at least pick Eliasson.

Here’s some stats for the three:

 

Would agree about Eliasson, but I think while his defending is not brilliant, it’s good enough to have him wide and another creative player in the middle. As an Eliasson aside, I've sometimes thought it would be an idea to give him a completely free role: to turn up on the left, right or through the middle, and don’t worry too much about defence. I think he’d give the opposition a real headache.

Back to KP, I half-heard a stat on Wednesday to the effect that (before he came on in the Forest game) he’d only had something like 87 minutes’ since November. Might have that wrong: do your stats include this info?

[Lez]

23 minutes ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

I personally think hes overrated here. There is certainly talent but if he and all the management teams hes worked under (Blackburn, Derby and Us) can't get the most out of him then i'm not sure he will make it unless you make the whole team around him.

And i dont think hes that high of a quality to make the team round one person. We aren't the QPR team who made the team around Taarabt who was levels above what Palmer can provide.

A couple stepovers and a few good passes isn't enough. Consistency is key in this division and i don't think he's ever found that consistency.

While I agree that he shoildnt be a regular starter and LJ was right to bench him earlier in the season.....I think the lack of game time and the lack of opportunities since then has been unfair. 

He played 3 great forward passes on wednessay so I hope he starts today but I doubt it.

[ExiledAjax]

Surely the simplest answer is that Johnson doesn't think Palmer's positive attributes outweigh his negative ones.

I think it's overthinking the problem to say that Johnson fears being embarrassed by Palmer coming good. It's a decent theory when dealing with an ego like Johnson's, but I tend to believe in the simplest answer being the true one.

On why he signed him. I don't know. Personally I didn't think Palmer did enough on loan to justify the permanent deal. I was sceptical of the signing and if my theory above is correct then on this I agree with Johnson.

However, if I were manager I'd be seriously thinking about playing the guy. If what we are missing is midfield creativity then Palmer does bring that. If you can then use Nagy or Massengo to do Palmer's running and defensive duties then maybe you've got a team.

[Bristol Oil Services]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Surely the simplest answer is that Johnson doesn't think Palmer's positive attributes outweigh his negative ones.

I think it's overthinking the problem to say that Johnson fears being embarrassed by Palmer coming good. It's a decent theory when dealing with an ego like Johnson's, but I tend to believe in the simplest answer being the true one.

 

Agree with this.

I think Lee could talk his way out of or around any suggestion he has erred by not playing him before if Palmer suddenly hit form.

[GrahamC]

@Davefevs Don’t think so, I simply don’t think he trusts him.

Remember his appearance at home to Millwall when he got caught in possession, they scored, (he did the same at Hull).

Whether we agree or not (I know many don’t) he only sees him as a last resort now when we are losing.

Whoever is right the fact that he cost us circa £3m & is rumoured to be a top six earner with us means this is poor value for money.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, lager loud said:

Would agree about Eliasson, but I think while his defending is not brilliant, it’s good enough to have him wide and another creative player in the middle. As an Eliasson aside, I've sometimes thought it would be an idea to give him a completely free role: to turn up on the left, right or through the middle, and don’t worry too much about defence. I think he’d give the opposition a real headache.

Back to KP, I half-heard a stat on Wednesday to the effect that (before he came on in the Forest game) he’d only had something like 87 minutes’ since November. Might have that wrong: do your stats include this info?

Your wish is my command.  Last time he started (45 mins v WBA on 27/11).  I make it 119.  Pre-covid it was 87 though!!

you might need to zoom in.

[lager loud]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Your wish is my command.  Last time he started (45 mins v WBA on 27/11).  I make it 119.  Pre-covid it was 87 though!!

you might need to zoom in.

Thanks Dave. Maybe that was it then: pre-Covid. 

Whether or not he would warrant a place if he got a run, it’s hard for him to prove when he’s getting no more than half an hour at a time. 

Having said that, you couldn’t argue that LJ didn’t give him a chance in the early part of the season.

[Unan]

45 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think there is a tendency to talk up and romanticise players who don’t start based on what they could maybe do if they got a game.

Palmer is clearly an imperfect player. He is not consistent and has a lot of weaknesses to his game and we are far more guaranteed to play well with him in the side.

BUT we have a team of industrious workers who work hard and cover ground but are short on creativity and moments of inspiration. In games where teams defend deep against us, there have been times - like against forest - where we looked bright but could very clearly have gone five decades of Sundays without scoring and the moment Forest scored, a loss was all but guaranteed.

Palmer offers nothing more than a possibility something good might happen. But, with games as depressing, dreary and lacking inspiration as they are at the moment, that possibility counts for a hell of a lot.

(Should have said “far from guaranteed to play well” in the second paragraph. Wish I could still edit things after posting!)

Adding nothing of detail to the thread, but the edit button is now at the top right of your posts

 

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Surely the simplest answer is that Johnson doesn't think Palmer's positive attributes outweigh his negative ones.

I think it's overthinking the problem to say that Johnson fears being embarrassed by Palmer coming good. It's a decent theory when dealing with an ego like Johnson's, but I tend to believe in the simplest answer being the true one.

On why he signed him. I don't know. Personally I didn't think Palmer did enough on loan to justify the permanent deal. I was sceptical of the signing and if my theory above is correct then on this I agree with Johnson.

However, if I were manager I'd be seriously thinking about playing the guy. If what we are missing is midfield creativity then Palmer does bring that. If you can then use Nagy or Massengo to do Palmer's running and defensive duties then maybe you've got a team.

Yep, quite possibly.

No different to me thinking Eliasson’s don’t I guess.

But through the countless system changes since that game v WBA, he’s not found one that starts Kasey....and yet some players keep playing poorly.

[WirralRobin]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@LondonBristolian and @ProfitInMyPocket

@lager loud

I don’t disagree, no guarantees at all....but hope at least!

We spent £3.5m on him, we had him for 6 months beforehand.  What was the basis of the recruit, if there wasn’t a plan to fit him in....accentuate his pluses, mitigate his minuses?

I personally don’t care if he plays or not, if LJ has a cohesive system without him.

But when O’Dowda has played:

• 50% minutes more than Palmer (1530 vs 1016)
• more starts
• more subs
• same goals, less assists

you have to question why?

If you can only fit in one creative player out of the three, for the sake of some other deficiencies, at least pick Eliasson.

Here’s some stats for the three:

 

Some cracking stats there Fevs! 

Interesting how Palmer excels in comparison not only at 'forward passes per 90', 'final 3rd passes per 90', 'final 3rd passes accuracy' and 'through passes per 90' as you would expect but also beats O'Dowda (who I've always associated with being solid at the defensive side of the game) and Eliasson for 'defensive duals per 90', 'defensive duals won %', ' aerial duels won %' and 'successful def. per 90'.   

As a more direct comparison positionally perhaps, I'd love to see how Palmer compares to Paterson over the same metrics as he has been LJ's go to creative/make something happen man since returning from Derby in Jan hasn't he. 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, WirralRobin said:

Some cracking stats there Fevs! 

Interesting how Palmer excels in comparison not only at 'forward passes per 90', 'final 3rd passes per 90', 'final 3rd passes accuracy' and 'through passes per 90' as you would expect but also beats O'Dowda (who I've always associated with being solid at the defensive side of the game) and Eliasson for 'defensive duals per 90', 'defensive duals won %', ' aerial duels won %' and 'successful def. per 90'.   

As a more direct comparison positionally perhaps, I'd love to see how Palmer compares to Paterson over the same metrics as he has been LJ's go to creative/make something happen man since returning from Derby in Jan hasn't he. 

Here’s all 4.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think there is a tendency to talk up and romanticise players who don’t start based on what they could maybe do if they got a game.

Palmer is clearly an imperfect player. He is not consistent and has a lot of weaknesses to his game and we are far more guaranteed to play well with him in the side.

BUT we have a team of industrious workers who work hard and cover ground but are short on creativity and moments of inspiration. In games where teams defend deep against us, there have been times - like against forest - where we looked bright but could very clearly have gone five decades of Sundays without scoring and the moment Forest scored, a loss was all but guaranteed.

Palmer offers nothing more than a possibility something good might happen. But, with games as depressing, dreary and lacking inspiration as they are at the moment, that possibility counts for a hell of a lot.

(Should have said “far from guaranteed to play well” in the second paragraph. Wish I could still edit things after posting!)

It's not unusual for players to get a reputation for being great because they are not in the team. I call it Frankie Artus Syndrome.

But you're right, how come he didn't persuade the management at the other clubs you mention of his value to their teams?

[WirralRobin]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s all 4.

Thanks Fevs that's great. So once again Palmer quite conclusively from the stats is the strongest defensively out of the four in pretty much every area other than interceptions (where he is only just behind Paterson) and Aerial duels per 90 (where he is second to O'Dowda and has the highest success percentage of the four). I like you, challenge anyone that says he is 'lazy' or not a hard worker too, he always seems to put a shift in when I've seen him play (albeit in limited minutes). 

It's all very odd, something must have gone very wrong between him and LJ behind the scenes for him to have not got more minutes since the turn of the year. 117 minutes of play since November for a big money signing who should be coming into his peak aged 23, when we've been as poor as we have been for most of that, with very little creativity other than Eliasson is pretty shocking really, I really feel for guy.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Just throwing it out there....is possible that LJ’s reluctance to play Palmer is because he NOW fears Palmer playing well and showing up his poor decision making.  The longer this has gone on the more stubborn he has become?

I really rate Palmer, but even then I don’t think he is the missing link.  He could be v.good, but if buy that skill you’ve got to accept the less good things that come with it.  I don’t think he’s not hardworking, but he is immature defensively.  He was disciplined away at Derby early this season when I thought he had one of his best games in a City shirt.

Other players need to take responsibility too.  By all means let him take it off the CBs on the halfway line, but don’t given him the ball 25 yards from our goal with a marker up his arse.  In this case, realise (our defenders need intelligence) that he doesn’t have to have it, and actually he’s dragged someone with him, creating space elsewhere.

He might get frustrated if he doesn’t get it, but coach him to understand that, explain to him where you want him on the ball.

Also, he looks like a player who needs minutes to find sharpness, get his legs going.  He was looking fitter with regular minutes earlier this season, but those tailed off.

Against Forest on Wednesday, he got the ball, moved 5 yards forward with in and then passed it constructively.  Ok, the shot was awful, but it bobbled as he hit it....but he generally looked to have a bit of confidence back.

Finally, having not had a great time here last season, what made him resign permanently?

- Johnson promises, have they been fulfilled...looks unlikely 

- Johnson stopping Swansea getting him

He worked hard on his fitness over the summer, but it does feel that he’s been poorly managed.

£3.5m is gonna look bad value under LJ, I think it needs a new head coach to get that value back.

I think KP has lost all the motivation he had when he signed for us . 
 

He looked lean and fired up at the beginning of the season but now , dare I say it , he looks to have put on a bit of weight .

 I am bitterly disappointed that LJ hasn’t found a way to get the best out of this talented young player , sadly not the first .

[Davefevs]

O’Dowda’s shots since the last times (imho) he played decently (Cardiff away):

.

[BrizzleRed]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Just throwing it out there....is possible that LJ’s reluctance to play Palmer is because he NOW fears Palmer playing well and showing up his poor decision making.  The longer this has gone on the more stubborn he has become?

I really rate Palmer, but even then I don’t think he is the missing link.  He could be v.good, but if buy that skill you’ve got to accept the less good things that come with it.  I don’t think he’s not hardworking, but he is immature defensively.  He was disciplined away at Derby early this season when I thought he had one of his best games in a City shirt.

Other players need to take responsibility too.  By all means let him take it off the CBs on the halfway line, but don’t given him the ball 25 yards from our goal with a marker up his arse.  In this case, realise (our defenders need intelligence) that he doesn’t have to have it, and actually he’s dragged someone with him, creating space elsewhere.

He might get frustrated if he doesn’t get it, but coach him to understand that, explain to him where you want him on the ball.

Also, he looks like a player who needs minutes to find sharpness, get his legs going.  He was looking fitter with regular minutes earlier this season, but those tailed off.

Against Forest on Wednesday, he got the ball, moved 5 yards forward with in and then passed it constructively.  Ok, the shot was awful, but it bobbled as he hit it....but he generally looked to have a bit of confidence back.

Finally, having not had a great time here last season, what made him resign permanently?

- Johnson promises, have they been fulfilled...looks unlikely 

- Johnson stopping Swansea getting him

He worked hard on his fitness over the summer, but it does feel that he’s been poorly managed.

£3.5m is gonna look bad value under LJ, I think it needs a new head coach to get that value back.

As we’re all well aware, trying to make sense of some of LJ’s thinking is extremely tough, but this could certainly make some sense.

LJ would be getting pelters from all directions if KP had an absolute stormer, so could indicate he could be keeping him out of ‘harms way’ for that reason.

Really hope this isn’t the case though, because that would completely blow the view that he only wants what’s best for the club.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Major Isewater said:

I think KP has lost all the motivation he had when he signed for us . 
 

He looked lean and fired up at the beginning of the season but now , dare I say it , he looks to have put on a bit of weight .

 I am bitterly disappointed that LJ hasn’t found a way to get the best out of this talented young player , sadly not the first .

I wouldn’t have a problem if others were justifying their place, but they aren’t.....plus we are Effin’ dull to watch.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

Palmer offers nothing more than a possibility something good might happen.

That in itself is usually enough to disturb the opposition defence in the same way someone like Junior Bent , Ivan Sproule or Luke Ayling did . It is much preferable to the boot upfield to Diedhiou who will be comfortably marked out if the game. 

[Galway Red]

A poor man's Jet, strange that he hasn't been given a chance though considering how so ineffective some of our players have been

[petehinton]

LJ wants a team of players who run around a lot. Palmer doesn’t do that. Fundamentally that’s why he won’t play him. 

[Wade Wilson]