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Not just Johnson's fault!


Knapperz

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Something I'm getting more and more annoyed and concerned by, is the club's ability to sell our best players at the worst times, without properly replacing them!

I'm in the camp where I believe Johnson has taken the club as far as he can, but it cannot be ignored that the sale of Webster (very close to the season starting), and in particular (timing-wise) Brownhill, has had major effects on our season. Brownhill was sold at a time when our only other options were Smith (just returning from 2 long-term injuries), Nagy (hadn't properly recovered from being injured earlier in the season) and Massengo (too young to have played as much as he had this season).

I appreciate the need for the club to be self-sufficient, and to do that there has to be a certain amount of cashing in on players, but Bristol City are a club who are telling their fans that they are aiming for Premier league, so the timing of the Brownhill sale in particular was very very poor, and the amount of points we have gained since the beginning of February says alot about that, so whatever happens with Lee Johnson between now and the start of next season, the club (Mark Ashton and the Landsdown's) have alot to answer for in terms of what's happened to our season!

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1 minute ago, Knapperz said:

Something I'm getting more and more annoyed and concerned by, is the club's ability to sell our best players at the worst times, without properly replacing them!

I'm in the camp where I believe Johnson has taken the club as far as he can, but it cannot be ignored that the sale of Webster (very close to the season starting), and in particular (timing-wise) Brownhill, has had major effects on our season. Brownhill was sold at a time when our only other options were Smith (just returning from 2 long-term injuries), Nagy (hadn't properly recovered from being injured earlier in the season) and Massengo (too young to have played as much as he had this season).

I appreciate the need for the club to be self-sufficient, and to do that there has to be a certain amount of cashing in on players, but Bristol City are a club who are telling their fans that they are aiming for Premier league, so the timing of the Brownhill sale in particular was very very poor, and the amount of points we have gained since the beginning of February says alot about that, so whatever happens with Lee Johnson between now and the start of next season, the club (Mark Ashton and the Landsdown's) have alot to answer for in terms of what's happened to our season!

Happens to every club. Next.

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Henriksen was brought in to replace Brownhill. International player, 100+ appearances in Eredivisie, 85 apps for Hull in the Prem and Championship and only 27.

LJ played him when he was lacking on match fitness, had a great performance against Derby, but understandably some worse performances with the lack of match sharpness, then he binned him off/fell out with him. 

Henriksen must have called LJ on his **** and that's why he was subbed at HT and never seen again.

The guy was OOC as well, he was playing for his future either here or elsewhere.

Mismanagement at its finest. 

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3 minutes ago, Knapperz said:

Something I'm getting more and more annoyed and concerned by, is the club's ability to sell our best players at the worst times, without properly replacing them!

I'm in the camp where I believe Johnson has taken the club as far as he can, but it cannot be ignored that the sale of Webster (very close to the season starting), and in particular (timing-wise) Brownhill, has had major effects on our season. Brownhill was sold at a time when our only other options were Smith (just returning from 2 long-term injuries), Nagy (hadn't properly recovered from being injured earlier in the season) and Massengo (too young to have played as much as he had this season).

I appreciate the need for the club to be self-sufficient, and to do that there has to be a certain amount of cashing in on players, but Bristol City are a club who are telling their fans that they are aiming for Premier league, so the timing of the Brownhill sale in particular was very very poor, and the amount of points we have gained since the beginning of February says alot about that, so whatever happens with Lee Johnson between now and the start of next season, the club (Mark Ashton and the Landsdown's) have alot to answer for in terms of what's happened to our season!

You make good points. I agree LJ needs to go, but whoever comes in will be expected to operate under the same situation. The constant churn of players and the constant selling of your best players, a nightmare  to build and sustain a winning, successful side.

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Sustainability means the club has to bring players like Webster, Brownhill , Flint etc etc , develop them and sell them for a profit in order to survive financially  because of the limits imposed by ffp.

If we replaced Webster then we would have had to spend the bulk of thew £20m fee, undoing the financial benefit we needed from his sale.

That's the harsh reality of life for a championship club like us.

However, we have a squad full of players more than capable of competing at this level. That they are not is not down to the clubs sustainability strategy but the ability of the head coach to get the best of of those players.

 

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4 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Unless you’re top 6 Prem, clubs have to sell their best players, it’s the same for all clubs. 

Would argue that even they don't have a choice, realistically unless you are Barca or Real Madrid you can and will have your best players taken from you if someone bigger wants them. 

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Pretty sure Blackburn didnt sell Dack to WBA in the summer.

Forest refused to sell Lolley to Villa in the summer and January.

Derby kept Bogle when he was linked with Prem moves.

Millwall kept Jed Wallace, Birmingham kept Bellingham until recently.

And im sure ive missed some, those are just off the top of my head.

As much as i believe sustainability is a good thing for our club. The OP has a point.

We dont need to sell EVERY single best performing player in our squad every window.

Show some ambition. How can this club progress to the next step if the players know they'll have a good season and jump ship.

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9 minutes ago, Knapperz said:

Something I'm getting more and more annoyed and concerned by, is the club's ability to sell our best players at the worst times, without properly replacing them!

I'm in the camp where I believe Johnson has taken the club as far as he can, but it cannot be ignored that the sale of Webster (very close to the season starting), and in particular (timing-wise) Brownhill, has had major effects on our season. Brownhill was sold at a time when our only other options were Smith (just returning from 2 long-term injuries), Nagy (hadn't properly recovered from being injured earlier in the season) and Massengo (too young to have played as much as he had this season).

I appreciate the need for the club to be self-sufficient, and to do that there has to be a certain amount of cashing in on players, but Bristol City are a club who are telling their fans that they are aiming for Premier league, so the timing of the Brownhill sale in particular was very very poor, and the amount of points we have gained since the beginning of February says alot about that, so whatever happens with Lee Johnson between now and the start of next season, the club (Mark Ashton and the Landsdown's) have alot to answer for in terms of what's happened to our season!

We're in that state now (having to sell) due to having a very bloated squad on decent wages.

Own downfall in the making by wanting as many options as possible.

If our wage bill was more sensible we wouldnt need to sell as often.

As things stand, our current account wage bill could triple Millwalls.

...

Who have finished above us.

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10 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

You make good points. I agree LJ needs to go, but whoever comes in will be expected to operate under the same situation. The constant churn of players and the constant selling of your best players, a nightmare  to build and sustain a winning, successful side.

I give you Brentford! Bentley, Konsa, Sawyers and Maupay! Can add Woods to that last season too and that's just the ones I remember...surely not the only ones?

Mind you the churn here is shocking- has been since LJ arrived- talking overall not just key players, but it feels like a recipe for problems.

Brentford strike me as the gold standard however. I don't think our recruitment is so terrible, it's just not 9-10/10.

Was hopping with the extra resources added to apparently similar principles, that we might be able to turn into a Brentford plus- we're a million miles off!!

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2 minutes ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

Pretty sure Blackburn didnt sell Dack to WBA in the summer.

Forest refused to sell Lolley to Villa in the summer and January.

Derby kept Bogle when he was linked with Prem moves.

Millwall kept Jed Wallace, Birmingham kept Bellingham until recently.

As much as i believe sustainability is a good thing for our club. The OP has a point.

We dont need to sell EVERY single best performing player in our squad every window.

Show some ambition. How can this club progress to the next step if the players know they'll have a good season and jump ship.

They didn't refuse to sell him WBA never offered the money they wanted. When you say they refused to sell you are chatting shit, they simply did not have their valuation met. 

Had WBA offered 15/18 million for Bradley Dack he would not be at Blackburn, as it was they didn't meet the valuation. 

Nobody put in a big for Bellingham so what Brum refused to sell him to the precisely 0 clubs that offered to buy him? 

Be like saying the Liverpool refused to sell Salah to Real, but Real never actually Bid and their interest wasn't serious at the price Liverpool would be willing to accept. 

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Mind you the churn here is shocking- has been since LJ arrived- talking overall not just key players, but it feels like a recipe for problems.

Brentford strike me as the gold standard however.

Brentford obviously excellent. I'm not making any excuses for LJ, he's had his time, and I said that sometime ago! You cant regularly go on lengthy poor runs and expect to get promotion. That's obviously an LJ issue and no good for this club.

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15 minutes ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

Pretty sure Blackburn didnt sell Dack to WBA in the summer.

Forest refused to sell Lolley to Villa in the summer and January.

Derby kept Bogle when he was linked with Prem moves.

Millwall kept Jed Wallace, Birmingham kept Bellingham until recently.

And im sure ive missed some, those are just off the top of my head.

As much as i believe sustainability is a good thing for our club. The OP has a point.

We dont need to sell EVERY single best performing player in our squad every window.

Show some ambition. How can this club progress to the next step if the players know they'll have a good season and jump ship.

Blackburn were pushing the edge of FFP and still are- may end up getting a points deduction if live cases still treated as they should be. I understand the model but I wonder if we always apply it correctly.

Nottingham Forest have been selling- think they aren't yet in a position where they need to worry about FFP but might be soon.

Derby are facing charges by the EFL and according to reports earlier this year, the EFL are pushing for a 21 point deduction. Historic issues but some current ones could yet bite them, their owner might have mortgaged Pride Park chasing promotion within a year or two. Their amortisation model is very questionable, reduces the costs that they should be paying but can kick them down the road.

Millwall are not in FFP issues and their running costs seem to be much lower than ours.

To name a few for you.

Our costs seem to be so high, look at the accounts- although I didn't think we needed to sell all three of Webster, Pack and Brownhill this season.

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12 minutes ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

Pretty sure Blackburn didnt sell Dack to WBA in the summer.

Forest refused to sell Lolley to Villa in the summer and January.

Derby kept Bogle when he was linked with Prem moves.

Millwall kept Jed Wallace, Birmingham kept Bellingham until recently.

And im sure ive missed some, those are just off the top of my head.

As much as i believe sustainability is a good thing for our club. The OP has a point.

We dont need to sell EVERY single best performing player in our squad every window.

Show some ambition. How can this club progress to the next step if the players know they'll have a good season and jump ship.

Most obvious one is Brentford refusing to sell Benrahma back last summer despite some very big bids, even bigger when you put the size on a club like Brentford into perspective.

Also, we sold flint and replaced with Webster, sold Bryan and replaced with Dasilva and cashed in on Bobby after one good season. None of these players were indispensable or irreplaceable.

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2 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Most obvious one is Brentford refusing to sell Benrahma back last summer despite some very big bids, even bigger when you put the size on a club like Brentford into perspective.

Also, we sold flint and replaced with Webster, sold Bryan and replaced with Dasilva and cashed in on Bobby after one good season. None of these players were indispensable or irreplaceable.

Bentley, Konsa, Sawyers, Maupay- next?

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Just now, formerly known as ivan said:

And yet they continue to progress in the right way and not moan about losing players?

They sure do.

Someone higher up the thread mentioned Birmingham. They didn't sell Bellingham but they did sell Adams, Jota and though less of a loss, Vassell. They also lost the services of Mahoney and Morrison- mind you they are struggling. Bellingham is now off, effective end of season.

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10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I give you Brentford! Bentley, Konsa, Sawyers and Maupay! Can add Woods to that last season too and that's just the ones I remember...surely not the only ones?

Mind you the churn here is shocking- has been since LJ arrived- talking overall not just key players, but it feels like a recipe for problems.

Brentford strike me as the gold standard however. I don't think our recruitment is so terrible, it's just not 9-10/10.

Was hopping with the extra resources added to apparently similar principles, that we might be able to turn into a Brentford plus- we're a million miles off!!

Looking back now, I don't think our recruitment has been as bad as many make out.

How players have been coached, handled and often massed around has made a big difference as to how many of our signings have fared once here.

 

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23 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

They didn't refuse to sell him WBA never offered the money they wanted. When you say they refused to sell you are chatting shit, they simply did not have their valuation met. 

Had WBA offered 15/18 million for Bradley Dack he would not be at Blackburn, as it was they didn't meet the valuation. 

Nobody put in a big for Bellingham so what Brum refused to sell him to the precisely 0 clubs that offered to buy him? 

Be like saying the Liverpool refused to sell Salah to Real, but Real never actually Bid and their interest wasn't serious at the price Liverpool would be willing to accept. 

Okay thats two cases. Blackburn still said no to selling Dack for 8 figures.

This sell at all costs for value does not set the right precedent for the club.

How are our players meant to take this "project" seriously when they know they're going at the first sight of Lansdown sniffing dollar bills to cover his costs.

I would want something to believe in but if I'm a player and I know my teammates are all going to jump ship every year to earn better money at other clubs. Why would I care? 

The players dont buy in to LJ because they dont have to buy in.

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I think the opening poster is not saying “we shouldn’t sell”, I think he’s referring to the timing of the sales. 

All clubs sell. Absolutely true. So we are no different. But, we are supposedly now working a system where we buy players to sell at profit (that’s fine), where we supposedly have a 1st team pathway for our own youngsters (that’s fine) and where we have a wide-ranging world class recruitment database where we have tonnes of players lined up to replace our sales (that’s fine). 
So, if all working properly we are well set. 
 

However, what we have seen this last 2 years is players being sold (that’s working well), not many youngsters coming through the pathway (I’d have to check stats but we’ve probably got one of the fewest number of academy product appearances this season for our division). So that’s not really working well either. 
Then we have the world class recruitment system - which has outright failed to bring in adequate, ready made replacements for the key players lost. 
 

So, the OP is right. We know we will sell (it’s part of our stated model), but the timing of the departures along with the failure to adequately replace are two elements that are failing badly. 
 

LJ must go. I totally concur. But the system he’s working in has not provided him with adequate replacements of the sale of key players at late notice in windows. 

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5 minutes ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

Okay thats two cases. Blackburn still said no to selling Dack for 8 figures.

This sell at all costs for value does not set the right precedent for the club.

How are our players meant to take this "project" seriously when they know they're going at the first sight of Lansdown sniffing dollar bills to cover his costs.

I would want something to believe in but if I'm a player and I know my teammates are all going to jump ship every year to earn better money at other clubs. Why would I care? 

The players dont buy in to LJ because they dont have to buy in.

I think Dack was their insurance policy- sell this summer if no promotion basically and it covers FFP based issues- but utilise him before hand.

Now that has been well and truly scuppered and I wonder if they might fall into breach as a result- and if they are I hope they are sanctioned accordingly. If it means 6/7 teams getting points deductions next season, so be it!

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