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Why it has to be an experienced, proven manager


Kid in the Riot

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1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

Feel like he would be a good fit working with MA as well. Great coach but some of his signings have been woeful.

I like Howe but I don’t think he would be a good fit off the back of an almighty struggle in the Prem looking like resulting in  a relegation.

It takes time for people to come to terms, emotionally, with a change of situation. They need to grieve before relaunching themselves in a new project .

That is one reason why I think Hughton would be a good move . He’s had time out to reflect and find his mojo again. He’s not leaving a mess or the joy of a promotion somewhere.

 

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30 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I remember in the 1980s it was obligatory for the likes of Steve Johnson, Tony Caldwell et al to describe BCFC as a “First Division setup” on signing. I assume this is the modern equivalent 

You had me worried for a minute!

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12 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I like Howe but I don’t think he would be a good fit off the back of an almighty struggle in the Prem looking like resulting in  a relegation.

It takes time for people to come to terms, emotionally, with a change of situation. They need to grieve before relaunching themselves in a new project .

That is one reason why I think Hughton would be a good move . He’s had time out to reflect and find his mojo again. He’s not leaving a mess or the joy of a promotion somewhere.

 

True. Can’t say I see Hughton as a long term investment though with the philosophy we want to go forward with. 

Would prefer going all out for Jovanovich.

Im wondering if we will see a Steve Cooper type appointment. Or a foreign coach that has been plucked out of the backroom staff of somewhere like RB Leipzig. Someone who will buy in the ideals of a “project”.

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I certainly agree with KITR that the club has moved on since LJ came in and it will be a more ambitious appointment but I don't necessarily think it will be an experienced, proven manager. It might be but I get the impression the club also want to show they are forward thinking, progressive and ambitious. I can't see someone like Mick McCarthy, for example, because I think he'd be perceived as too "old school" and I reckon SL might want to go with someone who'll make a bit of a splash and get a bit of attention.

I can potentially see Hughton or Jokanovic but I'd not be surprised if it was someone who has never managed before but has been on the coaching staff of a bigger club. I actually think one name who has not been mentioned yet who is more plausible than, say, Steven Gerrard, is John Terry. He's spent a couple of years in an assistant role, has a high profile and would be perceived outside the club as an ambitious appointment. I'd not be that shocked if it was that sort of appointment, or an overseas manager who has not managed in the UK before, that we ended up going with. 

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2 hours ago, OldlandReddies said:

No, that discounts them. They may get us out of Championship but what then? Steve needs to appoint someone who not only can get us up but can push us on in Premiership....exactly what Wolves have done. We will have world class facilities.....let's appoint a world class manager. 

But when the Wolves manager was appointed, he had never "done it" before. It was a gamble that has paid off massively.

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Very good and thought provoking post KITR. 
 

I posted on another thread last night that I think we are in a bit of a crossroads. 
SL has spent years trying to get his vision and club philosophy in place. But each time a new appointment is required he changes tac and seems to take the opposite route from which he had been travelling. 
 

He started with the experienced Wilson, then switched to the novice Tinnion. He then moved onto the experienced lower league man and disciplinarian G Johnson. Then he went for the experienced higher league manager in Coppell. Next, back to a novice in Millen. Then tried his hand at the ‘up and coming’ in McInnes. Then back to the experienced hand in SOD, to embed his vision. Next to the SC, who would not buy into his vision. Finally onto LJ, who would buy into his vision. 
 

Every appointment has been a shift (sometimes significant shift) from the previous one. It is for this reason that I have absolutely no idea where we are going to go with this next appointment. 
 

As I said, we’re at a crossroads. 
Option A is to carry straight on. That would mean employing someone in the LJ mould, a young manager with potential who would buy into the vision. Maybe the likes of Lowe and Cook come under that banner. Perhaps even Rosenior if you wanted to push ‘young potential’ with inexperience too.  
Option B is to turn right and take a manager who has a track record at this level. Someone who may polarise the fanbase but has the cv to say I’ve been here and done it. They may buy into the vision but more likely they will want something of their own control over certain things. So you accommodate them at the sacrifice of your vision. This is your Hughton, Mick, Jokanovic types. 
Option C is to turn left and go with a real ‘leftfield’ appointment. A statement. A big name with a history that will demand respect from the players and would increase our stature in the game from “little Bristol City” to “wow, Bristol City are actually going for it”. A take up and notice appointment. This is your Gerrard-type appointment. 
 

I honestly don’t know which way SL will swing this time. I wouldn’t be surprised at any of these options. I can genuinely see them sat down thinking about a Rosenior or a Lowe. But I can also see them seriously considering Hughton or Jokanovic. And I can also see that slavering at the prospect of a Gerrard. 
 

It’s a real tough one to call this. But you are absolutely right in that the reason we are now in a position to have all 3 options for consideration is because LJ and the current vision has got us into the conversation as an ‘established championship club’. 
4.5 years ago, we only really had option A available to us. Now we have all options open and I’m intrigued as to which way we go. It’s the most crucial point in SL’s tenure. Get this one wrong and we slide into relegation again, and his super training ground and stadium is a L1 flop again. Get this one right and there’s a lot of things in place that will help the new man to make a real promotion push, rather than the early-season flirting we currently do. 
 

Critical appointment this one. One I feel can go any way of the 3 options. 

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think Jokanović is a bit of a blind spot in my thinking.  Never thought he was a realistic but things have moved on.

Did wonder if his path had crossed with MA at Watford but timelines miles out.

A lot to like. ??????

Currently 20-1 with the bookies if you fancy a flutter. How much do we think it would cost to prise him away from the Managers position he has in Qatar? I can't imagine they are paying peanuts even in a fledgling league like that one.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think Jokanović is a bit of a blind spot in my thinking.  Never thought he was a realistic but things have moved on.

Did wonder if his path had crossed with MA at Watford but timelines miles out.

A lot to like. ??????

If I recall correctly West Brom approached him but he turned them down because they didn't offer him a big enough salary. If so he is probably out of reach.

 

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3 minutes ago, Harry said:

Very good and thought provoking post KITR. 
 

I posted on another thread last night that I think we are in a bit of a crossroads. 
SL has spent years trying to get his vision and club philosophy in place. But each time a new appointment is required he changes tac and seems to take the opposite route from which he had been travelling. 
 

He started with the experienced Wilson, then switched to the novice Tinnion. He then moved onto the experience lower league man and disciplinarian G Johnson. Then he went for the experienced higher league manager in Coppell. Next, back to a novice in Millen. Then tried his hand at the ‘up and coming’ in McInnes. Then back to the experienced hand in SOD, to embed his vision. Next to the SC, who would not buy into his vision. Finally onto LJ, who would buy into his vision. 
 

Every appointment has been a shift (sometimes significant shift) from the previous one. It is for this reason that I have absolutely no idea where we are going to go with this next appointment. 
 

As I said, we’re at a crossroads. 
Option A is to carry straight on. That would mean employing someone in the LJ mould, a young manager with potential who would buy into the vision. Maybe the likes of Lowe and Cook come under that banner. Perhaps even Rosenior if you wanted to push ‘young potential’ with inexperience too.  
Option B is to turn right and take a manager who has a track record at this level. Someone who may polarise the fanbase but has the cv to say I’ve been here and done it. They may buy into the vision but more likely they will want something of their own control over certain things. So you accommodate them at the sacrifice of your vision. This is your Hughton, Mick, Jokanovic types. 
Option C is to turn left and go with a real ‘leftfield’ appointment. A statement. A big name with a history that will demand respect from the players and would increase our stature in the game from “little Bristol City” to “wow, Bristol City are actually going for it”. A take up and notice appointment. This is your Gerrard-type appointment. 
 

I honestly don’t know which way SL will swing this time. I wouldn’t be surprised at any of these options. I can genuinely see them sat down thinking about a Rosenior or a Lowe. But I can also see them seriously considering Hughton or Jokanovic. And I can also see that slavering at the prospect of a Gerrard. 
 

It’s a real tough one to call this. But you are absolutely right in that the reason we are now in a position to have all 3 options for consideration is because LJ and the current vision has got us into the conversation as an ‘established championship club’. 
4.5 years ago, we only really had option A available to us. Now we have all options open and I’m intrigued as to which way we go. It’s the most crucial point in SL’s tenure. Get this one wrong and we slide into relegation again, and his super training ground and stadium is a L1 flop again. Get this one right and there’s a lot of things in place that will help the new man to make a real promotion push, rather than the early-season flirting we currently do. 
 

Critical appointment this one. One I feel can go any way of the 3 options. 

Whether the next manager is young and up and coming, or established and done it, or big name, is not really so important, IMO mate.

What is relevant is that the manager should possess the key attributes which any manager in any profession should have.

Leadership qualities and strong man management skills are essential. That is why Johnson was a hopeless choice as manager or head coach, he simply does not possess these attributes. The fact we improved each season with him was largely down to the money spent on players, which was only going to get us so far.

My comment on here within minutes of Johnson's appointment was "hilarious" because I knew or at the very least strongly suspected that he did not have these attributes; the reason I mention this is because I worry that what I felt then should have been blatantly obvious to the person making the appointment, wasn't blatantly obvious.

If you take the successful managers of recent seasons - Gary Johnson and Cotterill - both have those attributes. The others not so much or in one case, maybe two, not at all.

It sounds obvious but for whatever reason these fundamental principles were ignored last time around.

I don't know about some of the younger names you have mentioned, but for me some of the experienced big names which have been bandied about - Houghton, McCarthy, Allardyce, Warnock even, tick the box.

And for a left side swerve as you put it, judging by the way in which, I noticed, Holden took on the task of talking to the players during those drinks breaks when Johnson abdicated his responsibility, he might even have the necessary qualities.

 

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Hear this every time. 

“Has to be proven”  

Total nonsense.

if they are proven and they are coming here, of all places, chances are, they are a proven failure...

I’d prefer someone with good credentials and showed some promise 

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4 hours ago, petehinton said:

Doesn’t undervalue his judgement but, As above, why would the owner of a club need to consult with someone below him/someone he pays the wages for to make decisions? 

Well it was Ashton who interviewed LJ for the job and then recommended him to the Board, so perhaps Mr Lansdown does consult with those below him on big decisions ...

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4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I want them to be 100% bought into the structure of the club, and the club may have to budge a bit too to get the right man.  I want everyone to be joined up in essence.

 

I think it's an interesting point that the club will have to budge too.

The "project/vision" is obviously important, but I hope Steve/Mark/Jon are not pig headed enough to also think they will have got the vision spot on at a first attempt. They need to accept they will have made mistakes, some lines should be redrawn, and compromises made. For the project to truly be successful long term I strong believe it needs to evolve over time, and as they learn more - and they will have learnt a lot from the last four years or so.

For everyone to be joined up, they cannot expect to write a list of demands and have a new manager abide by them all. That's not how you motivate or get people to "buy in" to your philosophy - the new manager needs to be seen as an intelligent, experienced professional and responsible for shaping our direction as much as following it, and given some degree of autonomy.

If they get find an excellent candidate in who doesn't quite fit the project perfectly, perhaps that's an indication project should be able to change as well in order to be successful?

 

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5 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I think it's an interesting point that the club will have to budge too.

The "project/vision" is obviously important, but I hope Steve/Mark/Jon are not pig headed enough to also think they will have got the vision spot on at a first attempt. They need to accept they will have made mistakes, some lines should be redrawn, and compromises made. For the project to truly be successful long term I strong believe it needs to evolve over time, and as they learn more - and they will have learnt a lot from the last four years or so.

For everyone to be joined up, they cannot expect to write a list of demands and have a new manager abide by them all. That's not how you motivate or get people to "buy in" to your philosophy - the new manager needs to be seen as an intelligent, experienced professional and responsible for shaping our direction as much as following it, and given some degree of autonomy.

If they get find an excellent candidate in who doesn't quite fit the project perfectly, perhaps that's an indication project should be able to change as well in order to be successful?

 

Yep, exactly what I meant.

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Love the OP and I certainly agree with all of it . My only problem we have previous for going for an un fancied up and coming manager . Really hope I’m  proven wrong and we spend the pennies and go top drawer . Statement of intent 

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2 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

Both in their 60s. Not quite the basis for a dynasty that might bring continuity in the long term.

Possibly good enough for three to four years, in the case of McCarthy anyway, which I have no issue with.

Play's quick effective football - only became attritional with what he had at Ipswich after he was given no money.

His Millwall, Sunderland, and Wolves sides played some good stuff - much of it being wing-play which we've always favoured to some extent.

Also easily got RoI to qualify for the Euros, something they hadn't managed since Trapattoni unless I'm wrong.

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Available British Experienced Managers available are the following:

Sam Allardyce, Nigel Adkins, Steve McClaren, Alan Pardew, Nigel Clough, Chris Hughton and Mick McCarthy. 
 

Not the greatest list of available experienced managers.

 

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From that list I’d take McCarthy, Houghton, Adkins or Allardyce.

Need a really experienced head here at the moment to stabilise and rebuild.

Too many issues for a young up and coming Manager to resolve I fear not least an identity, pattern of play (Plan A & B), bloated squad and, critically, a bunch of individuals who can’t play together as one unit - even in their own sector of the pitch with two other team mates, let alone the entire field with the remaining ten colleagues. 

 

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1 hour ago, redpole said:

Available British Experienced Managers available are the following:

Sam Allardyce, Nigel Adkins, Steve McClaren, Alan Pardew, Nigel Clough, Chris Hughton and Mick McCarthy. 
 

Not the greatest list of available experienced managers.

 

Hughton or McCarthy from that list. I didn’t even consider mick before , but his cv is excellent 

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Looking at the Rugby model, things have changed since we appointed LJ in his role.

Lansdown has spent big on some rugby players, and has spent big on coaches. First getting Andy Robinson and then Pat Lam.

On a side note, I've just finished a Book about Bielsa (which is fascinating). Leeds openly admitted that the cost of the manager was far less impactful than another big signing player. They offered Conte £20 Million to coach them after he got sacked by Chelsea, such is the value of Premier League football to them.

If we have been wise (as would appear) in our purchases over the last 3 seasons, getting new young talent - why would you not now make that final investment to nurture and develop? The cost of that development of one player - could cover the salary of the manger 4 times over. That is why the LJ appointment should always be looked upon as a success with some amazing memories. Like many have said, it simply ran out of steam and ideas. It was stale, and needed a change.

If Hughton meets the club criteria of coach, agrees with the plan and agenda - money will not be an issue in getting his signature. 

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