BAME candidates

[RedRaw]

39 minutes ago, mozo said:

Listen to what black people in the game are saying and try to see things from their perspective. 

Like who? 

who has applied for a job and not got it due to them being black?

[Mendip City]

35 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

Sounds like Keith Curle talks a lot of sense to me.

Btw, what is the record of Darren Moore? I do not recall him promoting anyone let alone to the Prem which, for me, is an absolute prerequisite and that is already over 4 years too late.

Keith did talk a lot of sense. He said he’d be against “Rooney Rule” style short lists and wouldn’t apply. 
I thought he’d be a good candidate before that interview and before watching him get Northampton promoted. Definitely we should strongly consider him now (imho). 

[BrizzleRed]

8 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Keith did talk a lot of sense. He said he’d be against “Rooney Rule” style short lists and wouldn’t apply. 
I thought he’d be a good candidate before that interview and before watching him get Northampton promoted. Definitely we should strongly consider him now (imho). 

Sounds like he’s talking a lot of sense and he also comes over very well on TV too.

Must be honest though and it may just be a case of him having to work with the tools you have available, but I watched the League 2 play off final the other day. Northampton looked like a throwback to the Wimbledon crazy gang days.  Fair play to them, as they completely destroyed Exeter with their physicality and directness, but silky, sexy football it certainly wasn’t.

I couldn’t see anything in what Northampton were doing that would be transferable to the Championship and that style of football definitely wouldn’t go down well at the Gate

[steveybadger]

33 minutes ago, RedRaw said:

Like who? 

who has applied for a job and not got it due to them being black?

Well anybody doing the employing wouldN’t remotely admit to it, and BAME candidates wouldn’t be able to prove it. But why are the number of BAME managers a tiny fraction compared to the % of BAME players? Something isn’t right, surely the figures show that?

[Mendip City]

35 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Sounds like he’s talking a lot of sense and he also comes over very well on TV too.

Must be honest though and it may just be a case of him having to work with the tools you have available, but I watched the League 2 play off final the other day. Northampton looked like a throwback to the Wimbledon crazy gang days.  Fair play to them, as they completely destroyed Exeter with their physicality and directness, but silky, sexy football it certainly wasn’t.

I couldn’t see anything in what Northampton were doing that would be transferable to the Championship and that style of football definitely wouldn’t go down well at the Gate

Yeah it wasn’t good football... but it was winning football... we’ve been watching poor football. 
id hope that Curle was working with what he’s got, horses for courses and he genuinely has taken them forward. 
It was simple uncomplicated football. That’s refreshing as I think we over-thought and under-fought for far too long. 

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Listen to what black people in the game are saying and try to see things from their perspective. 

Like Keith Curle for example?

[Numero Uno]

33 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Well anybody doing the employing wouldN’t remotely admit to it, and BAME candidates wouldn’t be able to prove it. But why are the number of BAME managers a tiny fraction compared to the % of BAME players? Something isn’t right, surely the figures show that?

What proportion of BAME players do the coaching badges and get the Pro License you need to be a Manager?

Is it a case of “can’t be arsed, I won’t get offered a job anyway” or a case of “can’t be arsed full stop but where’s my job I’m ENTITLED to?” or do a load of BAME guys have the Pro License and are being discriminated against?

Thats what stats we need to be able to form a better opinion in my view.

[RedRaw]

29 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Well anybody doing the employing wouldN’t remotely admit to it, and BAME candidates wouldn’t be able to prove it. But why are the number of BAME managers a tiny fraction compared to the % of BAME players? Something isn’t right, surely the figures show that?

Maybe because a large percentage of black players do not want to or choose not to get into coaching/managing when their career finishes? Who knows? 

Go and get figures on how many black players choose to go into coaching, get their badges but are constantly overlooked due to the colour of their skin?

 

[Isawjonshaw]

2 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

Don’t think he’s bothered about controversy and in the current climate, I wouldn’t put it past him to jump on his soapbox. 

Just don’t like the bloke and I don’t think cans of worms would would put him off either tbh.

Time will tell I guess

Time will tell.  But there are reds in his close and wider family, so I think he’d avoid that potential issue.

[Bris Red]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

What proportion of BAME players do the coaching badges and get the Pro License you need to be a Manager?

Is it a case of “can’t be arsed, I won’t get offered a job anyway” or a case of “can’t be arsed full stop but where’s my job I’m ENTITLED to?” or do a load of BAME guys have the Pro License and are being discriminated against?

Thats what stats we need to be able to form a better opinion in my view.

It would be interesting to know the amount of ex professional black players that do apply and go for their coaching badges and pro license.

Looking at the ‘golden generation’ for an example, two stand out BAME candidates for me would be Rio Ferdinand and Ashley Cole.. both similar in stature to Gerrard and Lampard. Do Ferdinand and Cole have the desire to both become managers? 

[Numero Uno]

Just now, bris red said:

It would be interesting to know the amount of ex professional black players that do apply and go for their coaching badges and pro license.

Looking at the ‘golden generation’ for an example, two stand out BAME candidates for me would be Rio Ferdinand and Ashley Cole.. both similar in stature to Gerrard and Lampard. Do Ferdinand and Cole have the desire to both become managers? 

To get those stats is the only way of knowing the level of discrimination that is around. You can’t blame a lack of appointment for a job you do not have the required qualifications to carry out on the colour of your skin.
 

I played for England or I scored 120 goals for Lincoln City in four seasons is no justification. You get your Pro License like everyone else has to and you apply for jobs. If discrimination is a factor at that point then it has to be tackled head on.

[steveybadger]

13 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

To get those stats is the only way of knowing the level of discrimination that is around. You can’t blame a lack of appointment for a job you do not have the required qualifications to carry out on the colour of your skin.
 

I played for England or I scored 120 goals for Lincoln City in four seasons is no justification. You get your Pro License like everyone else has to and you apply for jobs. If discrimination is a factor at that point then it has to be tackled head on.

Getting the stats would make an unarguable case, but I don’t buy the black players don’t want to be managers stuff. Apart from anything it stereotypes all black players as Not having the motivation. We know that There is a ceiling across a lot of sectors That black people can’t breach (or at best a few can), and there are numerous academic studies that show racism (direct or otherwise) is a key factor.

And you could argue that Even if few black players Applied for positions, it might be that the reason is they feel they won’t get anywhere even if they have qualifications.

[BrizzleRed]

29 minutes ago, Isawjonshaw said:

Time will tell.  But there are reds in his close and wider family, so I think he’d avoid that potential issue.

Let’s hope so

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Getting the stats would make an unarguable case, but I don’t buy the black players don’t want to be managers stuff. Apart from anything it stereotypes all black players as Not having the motivation. We know that There is a ceiling across a lot of sectors That black people can’t breach (or at best a few can), and there are numerous academic studies that show racism (direct or otherwise) is a key factor.

And you could argue that Even if few black players Applied for positions, it might be that the reason is they feel they won’t get anywhere even if they have qualifications.

Keith Curle made a point about how he started his coaching at Bristol City. He had a coaching cv when he stopped playing. Having qualifications is just the starting point. Coaches have to create their merit in the game. 

This merit across football is not defined by race - The EPL's and English footballs Managers are increasingly foreign. 

[steveybadger]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Keith Curle made a point about how he started his coaching at Bristol City. He had a coaching cv when he stopped playing. Having qualifications is just the starting point. Coaches have to create their merit in the game. 

This merit across football is not defined by race - The EPL's and English footballs Managers are increasingly foreign. 

I think there’s a distinction between being foreign and being non-white. 

And no issue with what KC says or doubting his own experience. I’m just unconvinced it’s typical. 

[Cowshed]

20 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

I think there’s a distinction between being foreign and being non-white. 

And no issue with what KC says or doubting his own experience. I’m just unconvinced it’s typical. 

The distinction is merit. Knowledge and experience, trophies, wins, points gained etc. English football will employ anybody from anywhere with that merit.

When I started doing my coaching badges. Virtually no fellow coach was black on the courses. Eastern European coaches totally outnumbered people who were black.

Loughborough University have studied those who do coaching qualifications. People from black backgrounds are far less likely to enter coaching even at grass roots level. Its less than 10%. At each corresponding level up to pro licence the trend continues with levels dropping to 4% from a game with numbers where black players are disproportionately overrepresented v the populace.

 

 

[RedRaw]

52 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Getting the stats would make an unarguable case, but I don’t buy the black players don’t want to be managers stuff. Apart from anything it stereotypes all black players as Not having the motivation. We know that There is a ceiling across a lot of sectors That black people can’t breach (or at best a few can), and there are numerous academic studies that show racism (direct or otherwise) is a key factor.

And you could argue that Even if few black players Applied for positions, it might be that the reason is they feel they won’t get anywhere even if they have qualifications.

All I am reading is what appears to be your opinion and presumption, not backed up by any facts or experiences.

just because you say it, doesn’t make it real.

yet you have ignored the fact that a black manager has suggested, in his experience, skin colour is not the reason black players are not getting coaching jobs

[steveybadger]

5 minutes ago, RedRaw said:

All I am reading is what appears to be your opinion and presumption, not backed up by any facts or experiences.

just because you say it, doesn’t make it real.

yet you have ignored the fact that a black manager has suggested, in his experience, skin colour is not the reason black players are not getting jobs

I’m not ignoring what Keith Curle says - as per my last post I just don’t think it’s a typical experience. I’m v pleased he hasn’t had any issues.

As I’ve also stated There have been numerous academic studies showing the impact of casual and direct racism on black achievement in employment in general, not just football. I’m not saying that every minority has experienced it, just that it is an issue. But there is no reason to think Football is exempt from the problem.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

What proportion of BAME players do the coaching badges and get the Pro License you need to be a Manager?

Is it a case of “can’t be arsed, I won’t get offered a job anyway” or a case of “can’t be arsed full stop but where’s my job I’m ENTITLED to?” or do a load of BAME guys have the Pro License and are being discriminated against?

Thats what stats we need to be able to form a better opinion in my view.

Why would you even think up that "can't be arsed" scenario? It's such a weird negative thing to conjure up! 

Theres an article from 2015 here for the basics... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34589035

Max Rushden's Football Weekly podcast did an episode called 'Black Lives Matter, racism in football, and representation in sports media' which is an interesting into listen.

The show notes contains some good further reading of you want to understand the biases at play.

[steveybadger]

12 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The distinction is merit. Knowledge and experience and points gained etc. English football will employ anybody from anywhere with that merit.

When I started doing my coaching badges. Virtually no fellow coach was black on the courses. Eastern European coaches totally outnumbered people who were black.

Loughborough University have studied those who do coaching qualifications. People from black backgrounds are far less likely to enter coaching even at grass roots level. Its less than 10%. At each corresponding level up to pro licence the trend continues with levels dropping to 4% from a game with numbers where black players are disproportionately overrepresented v the populace.

 

 

Ok thanks - interesting figures. Don’t disagree that merit is a key factor esp in the top 2 leagues where cash is less of an issue. But if the proportion of BAME pro coaches is low given but there is a high % of players why are so few not even Trying to become qualified? I guess that’s the question. 

[City Rocker]

3 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Btw, what is the record of Darren Moore? I do not recall him promoting anyone let alone to the Prem which, for me, is an absolute prerequisite and that is already over 4 years too late.

Moore has no record, he took over from Pardew when West Brom were at rock bottom in the PL. 

Interestingly though, WBA sacked him when they were fourth in the Championship, which I thought was insane. A mate who is a baggies fan explained that he was taking them downwards, he never learned from his mistakes, was tactically clueless and his only strategy was to score goals. 

Sounds promising then! 

[The Batman]

4 minutes ago, City Rocker said:

Moore has no record, he took over from Pardew when West Brom were at rock bottom in the PL. 

Interestingly though, WBA sacked him when they were fourth in the Championship, which I thought was insane. A mate who is a baggies fan explained that he was taking them downwards, he never learned from his mistakes, was tactically clueless and his only strategy was to score goals. 

Sounds promising then! 

Brother in law said similar at the time. 

Sign him up

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Why would you even think up that "can't be arsed" scenario? It's such a weird negative thing to conjure up! 

Theres an article from 2015 here for the basics... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34589035

Max Rushden's Football Weekly podcast did an episode called 'Black Lives Matter, racism in football, and representation in sports media' which is an interesting into listen.

The show notes contains some good further reading of you want to understand the biases at play.

Explain yourself with your first comment.........

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Explain yourself with your first comment.........

Yeah you said this...

"Is it a case of “can’t be arsed, I won’t get offered a job anyway” or a case of “can’t be arsed full stop but where’s my job I’m ENTITLED to?” or..."

I didn't understand where you got that from? When did that become an option? Maybe I just didn't get your point?

[A Horse With No Name]

6 hours ago, Taz said:

Couldn't care less about the colour of their skin, religious beliefs, sexuality, or anything else that puts anyone into a category. 

They need to be good enough to make Bristol City into Promotion candidates. If that means that the next manager/coach is 9ft tall homosexual who has green skin with purple hair, prays to a make belief god, or even a little troll that lives under a bridge (not Robbored), so long as the club goes in the right direction then I. Don't. Care.

 

No but think of the songs we could make up for him / her.

[Bar BS3]

5 hours ago, Fuber said:

Can almost guarantee there will be some sort of backlash if we don't appoint Hughton.

I'm sure there will be accusations from some if we go for mixed race Houghton, rather than a proper, bonefide black man like Sol Campbell. 

The only reason we won't appoint recently sacked by relegated Southend, Sol Campbell, is because he's black, don't you know..?! 

[mozo]

1 minute ago, Bar BS3 said:

I'm sure there will be accusations from some if we go for mixed race Houghton, rather than a proper, bonefide black man like Sol Campbell. 

Uhhh probably not. Interesting imagination you've got though...

[shelts]

I was waiting for this thread . Thanks Marvin !!!

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, steveybadger said:

Ok thanks - interesting figures. Don’t disagree that merit is a key factor esp in the top 2 leagues where cash is less of an issue. But if the proportion of BAME pro coaches is low given but there is a high % of players why are so few not even Trying to become qualified? I guess that’s the question. 

Players are fast tracked onto courses. They do not have to meet prerequisites like having large amounts of coaching hours behind them and do not have to compete for limited spaces. The FA are very supportive and have diversity targets they strive to meet.

Breathe here .. It is made far far easier for a black player to gain a pro coaching licence than a coach with no pro or semi pro background working his way up from level 1. 

Why do so few attempt to become qualified at ALL levels? Culture has to be a factor.  

 

[steveybadger]

37 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Players are fast tracked onto courses. They do not have to meet prerequisites like having large amounts of coaching hours behind them and do not have to compete for limited spaces. The FA are very supportive and have diversity targets they strive to meet.

Breathe here .. It is made far far easier for a black player to gain a pro coaching licence than a coach with no pro or semi pro background working his way up from level 1. 

Why do so few attempt to become qualified at ALL levels? Culture has to be a factor.  

 

I’m pleased there’s fast tracking given you and I both seem to agree there is a problem with low numbers? And perhaps that culture is a response to the lack of opportunities at the end of it?