Numero Uno Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 2 hours ago, steveybadger said: I’m pleased there’s fast tracking given you and I both seem to agree there is a problem with low numbers? And perhaps that culture is a response to the lack of opportunities at the end of it? I would suspect there is some degree of truth in the last comment. However somebody in the FA should find out. It could be as simple as many ex BAME pro’s find coaching boring in which case the number of BAME players in the game will never be reflected in coaching and management. It could also be that racism is rife in which case they should stick their head above the parapet and admit it. Rather than leave clubs open to speculative, unproven, anecdotal accusations of racism the FA needs to do the research and find out whether a problem exists or not. I wouldn’t mind seeing Chris Hughton get the job but no way would I want Sol Campbell. In the same way I wouldn’t mind seeing Mad Mick in charge but Tony Pulis can kiss my arse. Personal preference and nothing else. Steve Lansdown will have his list and I’m sure that skin colour will have no bearing on anything whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwhitepurple Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 There isnt a lack. Stats and ratios allign perfectly to ratio. On a side not if your white you will not be hired at bbc after latest article wants only minorities, now thats racism right there, but its whites so its ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Numero Uno said: I would suspect there is some degree of truth in the last comment. However somebody in the FA should find out. It could be as simple as many ex BAME pro’s find coaching boring in which case the number of BAME players in the game will never be reflected in coaching and management. It could also be that racism is rife in which case they should stick their head above the parapet and admit it. Rather than leave clubs open to speculative, unproven, anecdotal accusations of racism the FA needs to do the research and find out whether a problem exists or not. I wouldn’t mind seeing Chris Hughton get the job but no way would I want Sol Campbell. In the same way I wouldn’t mind seeing Mad Mick in charge but Tony Pulis can kiss my arse. Personal preference and nothing else. Steve Lansdown will have his list and I’m sure that skin colour will have no bearing on anything whatsoever. It's difficult because in most cases we're probably not talking here about chairpeople who hate BAME people and therefore don't employ them. I'm sure there is still some hate out there but a lot of this problem is more subtle. It's a lack of trust, or some similar irrational conscious or unconscious bias. There will be clubs that could had Hughton as gaffer but something stopped them that they couldn't put their finger on and they instead employed a lesser? White manager. Social science tells us that shit like this really happens, and BAME people in the game claim it to be so too. I completely get why you want evidence, and I'm sure the BAME football community want it much more. The idea behind positive discrimination or the Rooney rule is that you force habits to change. In theory, when habits change, biases dissipate. I'm not sure how you measure it or when it has been tried or by who, but I'll try to find out. I'm intrigued to know if Campbell's a good manager or not, but haven't followed him too closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveybadger Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Numero Uno said: I would suspect there is some degree of truth in the last comment. However somebody in the FA should find out. It could be as simple as many ex BAME pro’s find coaching boring in which case the number of BAME players in the game will never be reflected in coaching and management. It could also be that racism is rife in which case they should stick their head above the parapet and admit it. Rather than leave clubs open to speculative, unproven, anecdotal accusations of racism the FA needs to do the research and find out whether a problem exists or not. I wouldn’t mind seeing Chris Hughton get the job but no way would I want Sol Campbell. In the same way I wouldn’t mind seeing Mad Mick in charge but Tony Pulis can kiss my arse. Personal preference and nothing else. Steve Lansdown will have his list and I’m sure that skin colour will have no bearing on anything whatsoever. Yes, may the best man (or woman?!) get the job. Hopefully the wider issues will evolve for the better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 4 hours ago, steveybadger said: I’m pleased there’s fast tracking given you and I both seem to agree there is a problem with low numbers? And perhaps that culture is a response to the lack of opportunities at the end of it? Which would not explain why clear disparities also occur at grass roots level. The claim of prejudices and lack of opportunity cannot apply. Football can and does try to artificially alter the number of bame pro licence holders. Football clubs have used the Rooney rule. The FA used positive discrimination to employ black coaches with England U teams - For those with the qualifications. Simon Jordan Palaces ex Chairman claims to have never received even one application who was black when the Palace job was vacant. It is not surprising. People cannot have Managerial opportunities without pro licences. People cannot apply for jobs they are not qualified for. A change in mindset and culture is needed within football bame communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveybadger Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 9 hours ago, Cowshed said: Which would not explain why clear disparities also occur at grass roots level. The claim of prejudices and lack of opportunity cannot apply. Football can and does try to artificially alter the number of bame pro licence holders. Football clubs have used the Rooney rule. The FA used positive discrimination to employ black coaches with England U teams - For those with the qualifications. Simon Jordan Palaces ex Chairman claims to have never received even one application who was black when the Palace job was vacant. It is not surprising. People cannot have Managerial opportunities without pro licences. People cannot apply for jobs they are not qualified for. A change in mindset and culture is needed within football bame communities. Ok I think we’re going round in circles, so I’m just going to point you at these links; - a bit of context that might explain BAME issues at grassroots. Not specifically coaching related but certainly gives context https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/24/reports-of-discrimination-in-football-rise-by-a-third-show-new-figures-kick-it-out-racism likewise https://raceequalityfoundation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Health-Briefing-40-Final.pdf and for the pro game: https://www.farenet.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/We-speak-with-one-voice.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 2 hours ago, steveybadger said: Ok I think we’re going round in circles, so I’m just going to point you at these links; - a bit of context that might explain BAME issues at grassroots. Not specifically coaching related but certainly gives context https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/24/reports-of-discrimination-in-football-rise-by-a-third-show-new-figures-kick-it-out-racism likewise https://raceequalityfoundation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Health-Briefing-40-Final.pdf and for the pro game: https://www.farenet.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/We-speak-with-one-voice.pdf As somebody who has been involved in creating sporting opportunities for the disadvantaged kids and the disabled for twenty years I will say with good faith the FA have made massive positive changes. I have read previously the second link. It highlights that there are cultural differences across races. It also highlights the on going effort the FA put into tackling discrimination. Your first link is disingenuous. The most common forms of discrimination at grass roots level are against the disabled and females. Reports of abuse of all kinds have been rising because the methods of reporting have changed and the FA have become more diligent. Malicious reports v coaches and clubs have also significantly increased. Discrimination can be the female toilets were locked/there were no toilets .. That link paints a grim picture of a game that doesn't exist. Grassroots football is ran by brilliant people with great clubs for great kids with a percentile who are not. Grassroots football is not the wild west .. And in regards to the first the first line abusive parents ARE being banned from watching their kids. Third link. There are a lack of role models in pro coaching. Yes in a game that is very ethnically diverse. Institutional racism? The EPL's clubs are foreign owned and Egyptian and Malaysian and Pakistani owners are its institution, operating some out there racism where they employ white coaches/managers from a pool of white managers. The topical Chris Hughton makes points about education. More black players need to get educated to create equal opportunities. Chris Hughton and others are great models highlighting that if you strive to be a coach you can and will become one. In opposition to this you have black pros saying their peers shouldn't even bother getting educated. Mindsets have to change to affect culture. Asian kids being less likely to play competitive sport is fact. Black kids are more likely to become football pros than white kids. White pros are more likely to become coaches. Culture is the elephant in the room. To create that equality of opportunity culture and mindsets have to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soultrader Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 Does anyone think we could get Eddie Nketiah to come to us as a player/manager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveybadger Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Cowshed said: As somebody who has been involved in creating sporting opportunities for the disadvantaged kids and the disabled for twenty years I will say with good faith the FA have made massive positive changes. I have read previously the second link. It highlights that there are cultural differences across races. It also highlights the on going effort the FA put into tackling discrimination. Your first link is disingenuous. The most common forms of discrimination at grass roots level are against the disabled and females. Reports of abuse of all kinds have been rising because the methods of reporting have changed and the FA have become more diligent. Malicious reports v coaches and clubs have also significantly increased. Discrimination can be the female toilets were locked/there were no toilets .. That link paints a grim picture of a game that doesn't exist. Grassroots football is ran by brilliant people with great clubs for great kids with a percentile who are not. Grassroots football is not the wild west .. And in regards to the first the first line abusive parents ARE being banned from watching their kids. Third link. There are a lack of role models in pro coaching. Yes in a game that is very ethnically diverse. Institutional racism? The EPL's clubs are foreign owned and Egyptian and Malaysian and Pakistani owners are its institution, operating some out there racism where they employ white coaches/managers from a pool of white managers. The topical Chris Hughton makes points about education. More black players need to get educated to create equal opportunities. Chris Hughton and others are great models highlighting that if you strive to be a coach you can and will become one. In opposition to this you have black pros saying their peers shouldn't even bother getting educated. Mindsets have to change to affect culture. Asian kids being less likely to play competitive sport is fact. Black kids are more likely to become football pros than white kids. White pros are more likely to become coaches. Culture is the elephant in the room. To create that equality of opportunity culture and mindsets have to change. Thanks for the response and I don’t doubt your knowledge or experience (certainly more than mine in recent times). Just a couple of points; I don’t think racism is endemic across grass roots football but it doesn’t take much for perceptions to be created that can put BAME communities off it. And I admire Chris Hughton who is obviously a determined and capable bloke, but he is one of very limited number ofBAME appointments. This problem has existed for a long time and has changed very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 05/07/2020 at 09:26, paul_fox said: Exactly. I can see a club soon appointing a BAME candidate and then struggling. They'll be too scared to sack him for fear of being labeled racist. If you're good enough you'll get a chance. A bit of this has happened over a decade ago. Seem to recall Blackburn faced some flak for sacking Ince in December 2008. He wasn't however sacked due to being BAME. He was sacked because Blackburn were after a promising start, in freefall results wise!! Wider issue though, I wonder. Fair to say that Lampard and Gerrard had a much more cushy starting point than say Campbell. It's a hard one. Appointment should be on merit however. So should assessment of time in a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 05/07/2020 at 10:15, cidered abroad said: He could even be ex Gas Equal opportunities are imperative but let's not go nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: A bit of this has happened over a decade ago. Seem to recall Blackburn faced some flak for sacking Ince in December 2008. He wasn't however sacked due to being BAME. He was sacked because Blackburn were after a promising start, in freefall results wise!! Wider issue though, I wonder. Fair to say that Lampard and Gerrard had a much more cushy starting point than say Campbell. It's a hard one. Appointment should be on merit however. So should assessment of time in a job. Might I suggest Lampard and Gerrard were afforded those opportunities because they had strong personalities with leadership traits and huge connections / influence in the game. Campbell was never seen in such a light as a player - was always the quiet, unassuming type, so perhaps this is a slight on his personality rather than his colour. I don’t really know how Campbell has been received in his management roles to date? Certainly in the media I’ve seen of him, he doesn’t come across as a ‘face of the club’ in PR terms. Has he shown the leadership necessary to suggest he’d be considered for other roles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 Probably the wrong thread to resurrect but I just wanted to flag that racism in football is being chatted about on Talksport now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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