Numero Uno Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 7 minutes ago, glynriley said: Blige! thats a shocking list when you see it laid out like that. and your mate said we had "a brill squad".... How have we ended up with a squad containing NINETEEN (I make it) Midfielders/Wingers? That's 4-5 players for each position depending on the system you use. Mental and incompetent management at the same time..........isn't this Mark Ashton's (or at least somebody's) job to say "hang on a minute, you want another bloody midfield player"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: That’s exactly it Big Tone. Taylor and Wright is probably best part of £20k per week that we don’t need to carry into next season...a bit more if you add in Maenpaa too. You could easily add in Smith (with a heavy heart) and Williams and in total you are probably talking £50k per week for those 5 players. Of course club will potentially have budgeted for not offering any of them a new deal. Here is what the new manager is “left” with. There are some in that list to be ruthless about. I know we have discussed this elsewhere but there is a job and a half to be done getting some of these off of our wage bill. We have the “never really going to make it, but still seem to always get a new contract” types, the “punt from L1” types, the “not quite good enough, but signed from other Championship clubs, so on decent wages” types and the “batshit crazy, totally pointless signing” type, otherwise known as Rene Gilmartin, who you haven’t included, but he is supposed to be a player (unless back up goalkeeping coach is really a job). Getting a minimum of 8 of these types off our salary costs this close season will be some achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highguy Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 2 hours ago, Selred said: Only are top top earners will be around the £20k mark. It's not an average wage for City. Palmer is on 25k a week and hasnt moad the match day squad most the season, Afobe on 35k,wells probz around 30/35k, kalas will be on around 30k, Dasilva will be another high earner probably coming from chelsea You find our wage bill has crept up abit over last few years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, GrahamC said: I know we have discussed this elsewhere but there is a job and a half to be done getting some of these off of our wage bill. We have the “never really going to make it, but still seem to always get a new contract” types, the “punt from L1” types, the “not quite good enough, but signed from other Championship clubs, so on decent wages” types and the “batshit crazy, totally pointless signing” type, otherwise known as Rene Gilmartin, who you haven’t included, but he is supposed to be a player (unless back up goalkeeping coach is really a job). Getting a minimum of 8 of these types off our salary costs this close season will be some achievement. Totally agree. We have a bloated and completely unbalanced squad with far too many players that, being ruthless, will simply NEVER be good enough to get us to where we want to be. Never has the saying "less is more" applied to this football club as much as it does right now. Punts, clubs in the bag, gambles, shots to nothing......................catches up with you in the end. Unfortunately it could actually put off a decent manager from taking the job in the first place unless we have clear plans to get the huge amount of deadwood/also rans out of the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 14 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said: Sorry Tone,, I seem to have accredited you for Dave's wise words... I'm sure you don't mind as were singing from the same hymn sheet.. Have a picture in your head of exactly how you wish your team to play - then recruit the players in their positions that will most likely be able to do that. Simple eh ... You're forgiven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 4 minutes ago, Highguy said: Palmer is on 25k a week and hasnt moad the match day squad most the season, Afobe on 35k,wells probz around 30/35k, kalas will be on around 30k, Dasilva will be another high earner probably coming from chelsea You find our wage bill has crept up abit over last few years Those wages you quote sound way too high. Are you sure you're not just making stuff up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selred Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Highguy said: Palmer is on 25k a week and hasnt moad the match day squad most the season, Afobe on 35k,wells probz around 30/35k, kalas will be on around 30k, Dasilva will be another high earner probably coming from chelsea You find our wage bill has crept up abit over last few years What's your source for Palmers wage as well as the others? Aside from Afobe being reported I'd love to know where you got those from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 minute ago, richwwtk said: Those wages you quote sound way too high. Are you sure you're not just making stuff up? Does that happen on here?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, richwwtk said: Those wages you quote sound way too high. Are you sure you're not just making stuff up? Sounds close to it for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 19 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said: Sorry Tone,, I seem to have accredited you for Dave's wise words... I'm sure you don't mind as were singing from the same hymn sheet.. Have a picture in your head of exactly how you wish your team to play - then recruit the players in their positions that will most likely be able to do that. Simple eh ... I’m not visioning us as Choir Boys! 14 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: How have we ended up with a squad containing NINETEEN (I make it) Midfielders/Wingers? That's 4-5 players for each position depending on the system you use. Mental and incompetent management at the same time..........isn't this Mark Ashton's (or at least somebody's) job to say "hang on a minute, you want another bloody midfield player"? Booooooom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 For context think Brighton as a fairly established PL team are paying guys like Solly March about £30,000 a week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
italian dave Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 26 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: How have we ended up with a squad containing NINETEEN (I make it) Midfielders/Wingers? That's 4-5 players for each position depending on the system you use. Mental and incompetent management at the same time..........isn't this Mark Ashton's (or at least somebody's) job to say "hang on a minute, you want another bloody midfield player"? It's 19 for every position using the system we have the last two games!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abraham Romanovich Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 2 hours ago, IAmNick said: And when the team is losing in the rain halfway through the season, or walking onto the pitch at Wembley for the playoff final do you want them to be thinking about the size of their bank balance and goal bonuses, or content with their pay and instead thinking about their personal achievements, their teammates, and their collective desire to win? Why did Beckham or Ronaldo stay that extra hour in the gym - was it to earn more? We're going to get off topic, but in general money is a poor motivator. There have been many studies and literature which show it I can link if you're interested. Sorry if I was unclear I was referring to an incentivised salary package purely for the manager. As Arnold Schwarzenegger once stated: “Money doesn’t make you happy. I now have $50 million but I was just as happy when I had $48 million.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Show Me The Money! Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said: If my Mrs looked like that SMTT, I wouldn't waste time posting on here!! “Treat em mean keep em keen”. Ain’t that the saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 hours ago, Abraham Romanovich said: I,m assuming you've never worked in a commission based business, or seen the rise in productivity when a piece rate scheme is introduced. Given that football is a results based business given the choice :- a) Take £20k a week with a £100k bonus if promotion is achieved or b)Take £5k a week (more than PM earns by the way ) and say a £3m bonus if promotion achieved . Motivation is a complex subject and there are many theories concerning it. One of the most respected is Maslow’s Hierarchy Of Needs. The lowest level is Physiological needs- ie basic human survival needs include food and water, sufficient rest, clothing and shelter, overall health etc. The next level is Safety - eg health and financial security. Next come: Love and Belonging - eg friendships and bonds, belonging to a team, forging an identity in a union, club, or group etc Esteem - which is based on respect and acknowledgment from others, and esteem which is based on your own self-assessment. Self-actualization - the fulfillment of your full potential as a person. Money definitely helps someone achieve the two basic levels but doesn’t really contribute to the 3 higher levels. Money is often a short term motivator and if someone can’t move onto the higher levels they will seek to move to somewhere that they can. In the football world there are plenty of examples of teams with highly paid players who achieve little but other teams of “lesser” lower paid players achieve more 4 hours ago, IAmNick said: In general I think money is a poor motivator of people. You need to pay people enough that they will come to work, and not feel hard done by (or be looking over the fence at what the person next to them is being paid) but beyond that, I think people are primarily driven by other things. Or rather - to effectively drive/motivate people to achieve money is actually pretty poor in that regard. I don't think Hughton will be coming here and trying to get us promoted so he has an extra £%, or at least I'd hope not. I think he'd be doing it for personal or ambitious reasons. He wants to be in control, he wants to get better/test himself (and by extension the club), and he wants to contribute to something bigger than himself. The money should be enough to get him to do the job, but it shouldn't be the reason he's doing it. edit: That goes for the players, and people in general as well. @IAmNick - this is a much better summary of motivation and is the sort of theory that successful leaders apply in all walks of life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappers Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, BigTone said: Nobody is sure of anything just now. Well you seem pretty sure that we should chuck a lot of money at a managerial candidate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevedon Red Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 31 pages....has he signed yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 13 minutes ago, Chappers said: Well you seem pretty sure that we should chuck a lot of money at a managerial candidate! If we are to progress then we have to take the bull by the gonads else continue as we are. I'm not saying a lot of money but we must pay the going rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abraham Romanovich Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 19 minutes ago, pongo88 said: Motivation is a complex subject and there are many theories concerning it. One of the most respected is Maslow’s Hierarchy Of Needs. The lowest level is Physiological needs- ie basic human survival needs include food and water, sufficient rest, clothing and shelter, overall health etc. The next level is Safety - eg health and financial security. Next come: Love and Belonging - eg friendships and bonds, belonging to a team, forging an identity in a union, club, or group etc Esteem - which is based on respect and acknowledgment from others, and esteem which is based on your own self-assessment. Self-actualization - the fulfillment of your full potential as a person. Money definitely helps someone achieve the two basic levels but doesn’t really contribute to the 3 higher levels. Money is often a short term motivator and if someone can’t move onto the higher levels they will seek to move to somewhere that they can. In the football world there are plenty of examples of teams with highly paid players who achieve little but other teams of “lesser” lower paid players achieve more @IAmNick - this is a much better summary of motivation and is the sort of theory that successful leaders apply in all walks of life Who would have thought Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs would appear on a thread considering whether or not to appoint Chris Hughton, is anyone able to argue a cast iron case for his appointment and expected salary requirements by using my own personal favourite theorem, Arbitrage Pricing . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage_pricing_theory Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agard Days Night Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 14 minutes ago, Clevedon Red said: 31 pages....has he signed yet? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 20 minutes ago, pongo88 said: Motivation is a complex subject and there are many theories concerning it. One of the most respected is Maslow’s Hierarchy Of Needs. The lowest level is Physiological needs- ie basic human survival needs include food and water, sufficient rest, clothing and shelter, overall health etc. The next level is Safety - eg health and financial security. Next come: Love and Belonging - eg friendships and bonds, belonging to a team, forging an identity in a union, club, or group etc Esteem - which is based on respect and acknowledgment from others, and esteem which is based on your own self-assessment. Self-actualization - the fulfillment of your full potential as a person. Money definitely helps someone achieve the two basic levels but doesn’t really contribute to the 3 higher levels. Money is often a short term motivator and if someone can’t move onto the higher levels they will seek to move to somewhere that they can. In the football world there are plenty of examples of teams with highly paid players who achieve little but other teams of “lesser” lower paid players achieve more @IAmNick - this is a much better summary of motivation and is the sort of theory that successful leaders apply in all walks of life Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing I was referring to. If you've read "Drive" by Daniel H. Pink he breaks it down into three similar categories which I was broadly referencing above. "Autonomy" - or can I do what I want / what I think I should be doing / solve problems my own way. "Mastery" - is there opportunity to improve at what I'm doing. "Purpose" - am I part of and contributing towards a greater vision/system/whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Dicks' Barmy Army Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 2 hours ago, RedRoss said: I don't get what correlation you've made. He's sold valued shares (last time I checked H&L were still trading?) and invested in us multiple times more than fans will have generated. Whether or not he saves tax offshore what does that have to do with his investment in our club? He could of spent that elsewhere. If you we're responding to a moral question on tax I'd get your response. Clearly way over your head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappers Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 19 minutes ago, BigTone said: If we are to progress then we have to take the bull by the gonads else continue as we are. I'm not saying a lot of money but we must pay the going rate. With minimal income? Normal times I’d agree, but it’s not normal times. If CH will work within limitations, fine. If not, why not just stick with Dean, then worry about the ‘Messiah appointment’ once there is certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin_unreliant Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 On 13/07/2020 at 11:46, Davefevs said: I’m not ITK, but I still think we will announce our new head-coach ahead if the Stoke game, even if he doesn’t start his job til a point after. There I was thinking you WERE ITK dave but you've now proved beyond doubt that you aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 minute ago, Chappers said: With minimal income? Normal times I’d agree, but it’s not normal times. If CH will work within limitations, fine. If not, why not just stick with Dean, then worry about the ‘Messiah appointment’ once there is certainty. Chappers, at this point in time we have no idea what will happen with income until a decision is made one way or the other. If they open the stadium with reduced capacity (which is most likely) then we can still derive extra income from Robin's TV to help cover some of the shortfall. Who knows what is going to happen ? I don't, you don't but either way the club needs to progress and maybe, just maybe we are strong enough financially to do so. Equally, to do so we must pay the going rate or otherwise tread water. We can save a small fortune by trimming the squad and concentrating on quality rather than quantity. We have some players I had forgotten about. Johnny Smith is one that comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ska Junkie Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Show Me The Money! said: “Treat em mean keep em keen”. Ain’t that the saying? Rachel Riley could be as mean as she likes, getting to smash that on a regular basis would make up for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 23 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said: There I was thinking you WERE ITK dave but you've now proved beyond doubt that you aren't. I’m a loser.....maybe MA / SL thought it was a 19:45 start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 11 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said: Rachel Riley could be as mean as she likes, getting to smash that on a regular basis would make up for it! DOWN SON !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 6 hours ago, Harry said: As a further query then. Let’s say, to the best of our knowledge, that LJ earned £600k and Ashton earned £500k. Hughton wants £1m, but wants recruitment control. Do you now remove Ashton too, offer Hughton the £1m, and use the £100k surplus to appoint a different head of recruitment (or head scout in old money)? Yes, definitely. Recruitment has been a problem too… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 9 minutes ago, BigTone said: DOWN SON !!! And the aubergine is exactly what your lovely wife will be looking to insert in your back passage !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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