Jeez Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 8 hours ago, Harry said: Hi S_C. I just want to pick up the above quoted comment in your post. MA was not responsible for the recruitment in Cotterill’s tenure. He had absolutely zero influence on the signings that won league 1. MA was at City as a ‘consultant’, representing his recruitment company ‘Tactical Change’. He was here for a few months in 2012, during the McInnes era. He was gone again before SOD arrived. What he ‘implemented’ during his brief spell, was to essentially sell Scout 7 (some players analytics software) to the club, and bring in a couple of ‘analysts’ to interrogate this software. The recruitment under Cotterill, which helped win the league, was nothing to do with this software. SOD and Cotterill were ‘old school’ in terms of their scouting philosophy (remember too that Keith Burt was Chief Scout for both of these too). It was SOD & Burt who brought in Flint, Williams, Pack, Fielding, Jet & Wagstaff. I can 100% confirm that none of these were anything to do with Ashton and his software. They were all from Burt or Sod’s own knowledge and/or contacts. Likewise, the next summer, Cotterill & Burt were 100% behind Wilbraham, Smith, Freeman, Ayling, Elliott. Again, 100%, none of those names were linked in any way whatsoever with MA’s involvement. In fact, I’ll tell you also 100% that 4 of those names came directly from personal recommendations in conversations with SOD & Burt, with whom I was in regular contact with at the time. Only upon MA’s return to the club did he then implement the model that’s now in place. Prior to that it was all very much the old fashioned way of having an experienced head scout working closely with the manager. So just to absolutely clarify, MA had absolutely zero influence in any of the transfers which built the L1 winning team. Fascinating post there, especially if you consider that recent big sales have been: Reid, Kelly & Bryan all home grown players. Brownhill, surely this was one LJ brought his knowledge of a skills/potential/contract situation. Leaves only Webster as the other big money sale, any insight into how we scouted him? No doubt MA is a tough negotiator in maximising sales out but still to be proven on identifying and signing the best up & coming players to fit a style and formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P'head Red Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, Red Alert said: Fascinating post there, especially if you consider that recent big sales have been: Reid, Kelly & Bryan all home grown players. Brownhill, surely this was one LJ brought his knowledge of a skills/potential/contract situation. Leaves only Webster as the other big money sale, any insight into how we scouted him? I'm not sure the exact details of how Webster was scouted, but I'm fairly sure LJ insisted that we could only sell Aden flint if we could buy Webster to replace him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 13 minutes ago, Red Alert said: Fascinating post there, especially if you consider that recent big sales have been: Reid, Kelly & Bryan all home grown players. Brownhill, surely this was one LJ brought his knowledge of a skills/potential/contract situation. Leaves only Webster as the other big money sale, any insight into how we scouted him? No doubt MA is a tough negotiator in maximising sales out but still to be proven on identifying and signing the best up & coming players to fit a style and formation. ...of course, that assumes we have a style and formation. An ‘identity’ would be a good start. Its all been ‘random chaos’ for several years now. We have assembled a squad without any apparent reference to an identity, style or formation and that’s reflected by the clueless, disjointed, stuttering performances on the pitch. We’re a mess. Who shares the greater blame for having created this monster, LJ or MA, I don’t know. This is why it is so critical we get someone in who is an ‘old head’, knows the Championship and won’t be subservient to MA (or SL). While Hughton may not be ‘exciting’ he is the type we need just now. While I like Warnock or McCarthy as options, Hughton is probably the better diplomat in dealing with MA ‘s ego and SLs interference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappers Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 Got bored reading all this, but have I got it right? We appoint Hughton and automatically get promoted. We don’t appoint Hughton the the Club collapses? Scientifically researched via hype and bandwagon on a football forum? And Hughton has just been sitting and waiting for us to make an offer as managing City has been a lifelong dream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 15 minutes ago, Chappers said: Got bored reading all this, but have I got it right? We appoint Hughton and automatically get promoted. We don’t appoint Hughton the the Club collapses? Scientifically researched via hype and bandwagon on a football forum? And Hughton has just been sitting and waiting for us to make an offer as managing City has been a lifelong dream? I don’t think anyone sensible is suggesting any of the above. Hughton is however an excellent manager at Championship level and has been pursued by several clubs in the last year for good reason, employing him doesn’t guarantee anything but it’s less of a risk than giving the job to someone with no experience or success in Championship football. The fact that a manager of his Caliber appears to be interested understandably excites many of us who want to believe that we could be serious contenders in this division. Lowe, Flynn, Cowleys etc could all get us promoted but Hughton has form hence why I feel many supporters are eager to see this get over the line. This managerial appointment will tell us a lot about where we are as a club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 30 minutes ago, RedRock said: ...of course, that assumes we have a style and formation. An ‘identity’ would be a good start. Its all been ‘random chaos’ for several years now. We have assembled a squad without any apparent reference to an identity, style or formation and that’s reflected by the clueless, disjointed, stuttering performances on the pitch. We’re a mess. Who shares the greater blame for having created this monster, LJ or MA, I don’t know. This is why it is so critical we get someone in who is an ‘old head’, knows the Championship and won’t be subservient to MA (or SL). While Hughton may not be ‘exciting’ he is the type we need just now. While I like Warnock or McCarthy as options, Hughton is probably the better diplomat in dealing with MA ‘s ego and SLs interference. I think that’s really important otherwise things won’t change (off field and regarding recruitment). CH has a certain gravitas that is needed in this kind of situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Journalist Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 25 minutes ago, Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan said: I don’t think anyone sensible is suggesting any of the above. Hughton is however an excellent manager at Championship level and has been pursued by several clubs in the last year for good reason, employing him doesn’t guarantee anything but it’s less of a risk than giving the job to someone with no experience or success in Championship football. The fact that a manager of his Caliber appears to be interested understandably excites many of us who want to believe that we could be serious contenders in this division. Lowe, Flynn, Cowleys etc could all get us promoted but Hughton has form hence why I feel many supporters are eager to see this get over the line. This managerial appointment will tell us a lot about where we are as a club. Michael Flynn could come in and get us promoted as much as Chris Hughton could come in and guide us to 18th. I think the point is, in the absence of a crystal ball, that the club have sacked Lee Johnson in order to take the next step. And some appointments definitely make that more likely then others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Rollason Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 I haven't been keeping track of this thread but I note that some of us seem to be angry at the club and SL for not employing CH. He might not have applied. We may have offered it to him and he might have turned us down. If you watch Hughtons "Coaches voice" video, which is a good watch btw, he plainly says at the end that he wants to manage " at the highest level" as he believes that he has earned the right to do so... which is fair enough. So we may not be what he's looking for at all. That being said he has to be realistic about his prospects of getting a job straight in the Prem with his CV so he would be a good fit for us. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Fred Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, The Journalist said: the club have sacked Lee Johnson in order to take the next step This in a nutshell.. Therefore no point in the next incumbent being of similar ilk.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cider red Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 Arent we supposedly going to confirm this today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliftonCliff Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, Cider red said: Arent we supposedly going to confirm this today? Don’t hold your breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 7 minutes ago, Cider red said: Arent we supposedly going to confirm this today? No it will be next week sometime between Monday and Wednesday is my guess, Just so more people can throw their toys out of the pram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargent Pepper Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 14 hours ago, Johnny Musicworks said: Quite possible that a player would divulge info like that which is why the club having kept everything under wraps is hardly likely to tell the players before they are ready to announce it themselves. More likely that Sammy got the info off Talk Sport etc Unless of course, the incoming manager has already met with the players... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Red Alert said: Fascinating post there, especially if you consider that recent big sales have been: Reid, Kelly & Bryan all home grown players. Brownhill, surely this was one LJ brought his knowledge of a skills/potential/contract situation. Leaves only Webster as the other big money sale, any insight into how we scouted him? No doubt MA is a tough negotiator in maximising sales out but still to be proven on identifying and signing the best up & coming players to fit a style and formation. An almost impossible job in the last couple of years, given that there was little way of knowing what LJ's chosen style or formation was going to be from one week to the next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityal Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 8 hours ago, milo1111 said: Im pretty certain their bosses know they are quality managers and let them make the decisions and just trust them to get on with it without interference. Do you think happens at our club??? I guess it may depend on what you term as "interference" If you are suggesting that MA, JL or SL pick the team, decide on formation or tactics, and interfere in training then no I don't think that happens at our club. As far as i can tell that is the role of the head coach and the coaching team, and the involvement of the executive management folks there should be tiny if any. I am open minded though so if someone was to show me direct evidence of such interference I could change my position on that. If by "interference" you mean that the Bristol city head coach has to work with others including MA, JL, SL, the Financial team and Analysts to decide on player recruitment - then 100% yes the club do "interfere" and with the good reason of ensuring financial stability and meeting FFP. I also hope the club view this part as a "red line" and will NEVER recruit a coach/manager that demands full control of this aspect - in general i don't hear of too many football mangers/coaches that know their way around excel and financial planning spreadsheets. These are multi-million pound businesses and turning control of finances over to a Harry Redknapp and his dog type character is the road to ruin. This is a good read on the Liverpool situation over recent years - https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/how-liverpools-transfer-committee-went-16479508 In short they had a transfer committee that Brendan Rogers didn't want to work with. BR brought in Andy Carroll and Christian Benteke who he had identified as his key targets, The committee bought Roberto Firminho based on player analysis. Nowadays Klopp works well with the committee and the results of their recent recruitment are the number of trophies they are accumulating. Does working with a committee of people to decide transfers make Klopp a yes man or just make him a savvy leader that can manage up as well down? Like most on here I want us to appoint CH immediately subject of course to both the club and CH being able to work together, the club being able to afford it, and Hughton not making silly demands over transfer budget etc. Hughton has a track record second to none in this division and seems to be the standout candidate, and like many I am frustrated by the apparent delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo1111 Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 18 minutes ago, cityal said: I guess it may depend on what you term as "interference" If you are suggesting that MA, JL or SL pick the team, decide on formation or tactics, and interfere in training then no I don't think that happens at our club. As far as i can tell that is the role of the head coach and the coaching team, and the involvement of the executive management folks there should be tiny if any. I am open minded though so if someone was to show me direct evidence of such interference I could change my position on that. If by "interference" you mean that the Bristol city head coach has to work with others including MA, JL, SL, the Financial team and Analysts to decide on player recruitment - then 100% yes the club do "interfere" and with the good reason of ensuring financial stability and meeting FFP. I also hope the club view this part as a "red line" and will NEVER recruit a coach/manager that demands full control of this aspect - in general i don't hear of too many football mangers/coaches that know their way around excel and financial planning spreadsheets. These are multi-million pound businesses and turning control of finances over to a Harry Redknapp and his dog type character is the road to ruin. This is a good read on the Liverpool situation over recent years - https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/how-liverpools-transfer-committee-went-16479508 In short they had a transfer committee that Brendan Rogers didn't want to work with. BR brought in Andy Carroll and Christian Benteke who he had identified as his key targets, The committee bought Roberto Firminho based on player analysis. Nowadays Klopp works well with the committee and the results of their recent recruitment are the number of trophies they are accumulating. Does working with a committee of people to decide transfers make Klopp a yes man or just make him a savvy leader that can manage up as well down? Like most on here I want us to appoint CH immediately subject of course to both the club and CH being able to work together, the club being able to afford it, and Hughton not making silly demands over transfer budget etc. Hughton has a track record second to none in this division and seems to be the standout candidate, and like many I am frustrated by the apparent delay. You make good points and I understand what you say about the best managers working with transfer committees. They are however fishing in a different talent pool player wise. You view mark ashtons involvement in identifying transfers as a positive but I’m not so sure. Some would agree with you and some would agree with me. We could argue this all day long. The only thing I would say is that with the exception of Webster I think the jury is out on his success with this system. There is no doubt Ashton is a great negotiator though. it really is becoming obvious to everyone now that we are the sort of club looking to employ more of a head coach than a manager. for me the glaring issue is the lack of a director of football to create a footballing philosophy throughout the club and then the tailoring of ashtons recruitment system to facilitate this a la Brentford. at the moment all I see is some self congratulating smug boys club where we seem to think we have a great structure (dna and all that BS), the football on the pitch is truly dire and we have no recognisable style of play or identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 15 minutes ago, milo1111 said: You make good points and I understand what you say about the best managers working with transfer committees. They are however fishing in a different talent pool player wise. You view mark ashtons involvement in identifying transfers as a positive but I’m not so sure. Some would agree with you and some would agree with me. We could argue this all day long. The only thing I would say is that with the exception of Webster I think the jury is out on his success with this system. There is no doubt Ashton is a great negotiator though. it really is becoming obvious to everyone now that we are the sort of club looking to employ more of a head coach than a manager. for me the glaring issue is the lack of a director of football to create a footballing philosophy throughout the club and then the tailoring of ashtons recruitment system to facilitate this a la Brentford. at the moment all I see is some self congratulating smug boys club where we seem to think we have a great structure (dna and all that BS), the football on the pitch is truly dire and we have no recognisable style of play or identity. 5 years ago we could only dream of signing players like afobe webster Wells and Baker, That shows that ashton has done a good job improving the talent pool we now shop in, That doesn't mean it can't and won't be improved if he left tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChippenhamRed Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Will Rollason said: I haven't been keeping track of this thread but I note that some of us seem to be angry at the club and SL for not employing CH. He might not have applied. We may have offered it to him and he might have turned us down. If you watch Hughtons "Coaches voice" video, which is a good watch btw, he plainly says at the end that he wants to manage " at the highest level" as he believes that he has earned the right to do so... which is fair enough. So we may not be what he's looking for at all. That being said he has to be realistic about his prospects of getting a job straight in the Prem with his CV so he would be a good fit for us. IMO. According to GMcG, Hughton interviewed yesterday and remains very much in the frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Red Alert said: Fascinating post there, especially if you consider that recent big sales have been: Reid, Kelly & Bryan all home grown players. Brownhill, surely this was one LJ brought his knowledge of a skills/potential/contract situation. Leaves only Webster as the other big money sale, any insight into how we scouted him? No doubt MA is a tough negotiator in maximising sales out but still to be proven on identifying and signing the best up & coming players to fit a style and formation. I can’t say how the Webster purchase arose, but what I can say for 100% certainty is that he was recommended to City in December 2012 and I personally spoke with SOD & Burt in March 2013 regarding Webster, when he was at Portsmouth (along with a young Jed Wallace whom we also discussed). I would imagine that through Burt’s continuation through the Cotterill era that Webster’s name was ‘fully installed’ on the ‘database’ before MA had arrived. Hey, don’t get me wrong, hats off to Ashton for negotiating good prices in and good prices out, he’s good at that for sure. But his ‘eye’ for a player is not there - he’s an administrator and a salesman, not a scout, yet he’s sacked every head scout we’ve had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, Harry said: I can’t say how the Webster purchase arose, but what I can say for 100% certainty is that he was recommended to City in December 2012 and I personally spoke with SOD & Burt in March 2013 regarding Webster, when he was at Portsmouth (along with a young Jed Wallace whom we also discussed). I would imagine that through Burt’s continuation through the Cotterill era that Webster’s name was ‘fully installed’ on the ‘database’ before MA had arrived. Hey, don’t get me wrong, hats off to Ashton for negotiating good prices in and good prices out, he’s good at that for sure. But his ‘eye’ for a player is not there - he’s an administrator and a salesman, not a scout, yet he’s sacked every head scout we’ve had. Interesting comment at the end that MA has sacked every coach we’ve had. I not sure if this is completely true, but City does seem to have a high turnover of coaches. I suppose this is normal, to a degree, but some at City have been here today gone tomorrow. Would anyone like to comment on the various comings and goings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 42 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said: According to GMcG, Hughton interviewed yesterday and remains very much in the frame. As long as the interview wasn't with the City police, that's good news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwickshire Red Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 Can't help but think we'd do better on recruitment if MA stuck to the negotiating and we had an separate head of recruitment/Scout/DOF with team of scouts augmenting whatever software and database they have. Why not let SMEs to do their job as they do in other industries/sectors or indeed as with other football clubs? Too much power in too few hands without the necessary experience IMO. SL seems to have thrown in his all with MA controlling all footballing matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Show Me The Money! Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, Warwickshire Red said: Can't help but think we'd do better on recruitment if MA stuck to the negotiating and we had an separate head of recruitment/Scout/DOF with team of scouts augmenting whatever software and database they have. Why not let SMEs to do their job as they do in other industries/sectors or indeed as with other football clubs? Too much power in too few hands without the necessary experience IMO. SL seems to have thrown in his all with MA controlling all footballing matters. Totally agree. If we just have a head coach model you need a DOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchred Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, Warwickshire Red said: Can't help but think we'd do better on recruitment if MA stuck to the negotiating and we had an separate head of recruitment/Scout/DOF with team of scouts augmenting whatever software and database they have. Why not let SMEs to do their job as they do in other industries/sectors or indeed as with other football clubs? Too much power in too few hands without the necessary experience IMO. SL seems to have thrown in his all with MA controlling all footballing matters. we do have a head of recruitment and it’s not mark ashton! we do have a team of scouts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchred Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 57 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said: According to GMcG, Hughton interviewed yesterday and remains very much in the frame. that will be the same GMcG who a week ago said it definitely won’t be ch! the bloke has zero contacts and yet most on here drool over him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuber Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 Clubs twitter hasnt posted shite this morning. Thats a bit unlike Ryan/Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, Fuber said: Clubs twitter hasnt posted shite this morning. Thats a bit unlike Ryan/Dave. That's true however "Bristol Boy" formally of this forum is saying on Twitter that he's heard (via someone at BHA who allegedly tipped him off about Webster) that Hughton is not happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 23 minutes ago, Warwickshire Red said: Can't help but think we'd do better on recruitment if MA stuck to the negotiating and we had an separate head of recruitment/Scout/DOF with team of scouts augmenting whatever software and database they have. Why not let SMEs to do their job as they do in other industries/sectors or indeed as with other football clubs? Too much power in too few hands without the necessary experience IMO. SL seems to have thrown in his all with MA controlling all footballing matters. That is the main problem in my eyes, Ashton is good at his job, but let football scouts work with the analysts and let money people do the negotiation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dolman Pragmatist Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 On 23/07/2020 at 23:13, Lez said: Magdalan College debating society and the Oxford Union. Sky interviewee Sorry, only just picked up on this one. This ‘Magdalan College’? Where’s that then? Presumably you don’t mean Magdalen College Oxford as I find it hard to believe that an Oxford graduate would misspell the name of their own college! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 25, 2020 Report Share Posted July 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: That's true however "Bristol Boy" formally of this forum is saying on Twitter that he's heard (via someone at BHA who allegedly tipped him off about Webster) that Hughton is not happening. No one outside the club has a clue about the process, So many people saying different things sadly, Always the same in the social media age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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