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Chris Hughton


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2 minutes ago, Harry said:

For those who feel we should “just spend the money”, how about this. 
 

SL says “ok customers, oops no sorry, supporters. I’m going to appoint Chris Hughton, but his salary is double that of Lee and so, to cover the difference I’m going to add £50 to all season tickets. 
I thank you for recently renewing your £450 seat. Please can you transfer another £50 before the end of July and we’ll arrange the appointment of Mr Hughton”. 
 

What’s your thoughts now? 
Just a devils advocate kinda query by the way. 

I’d pay extra if it meant the quality of my ‘product’ was better.  Ideally I’d rather divided up the current running costs differently so that the managerial costs were higher and player costs lower but yeah I’d pay I reckon.  I’d also expect my ST to be lower were we to appoint a Lowe or a Ainsworth though and expect it to be free if we brought Flynn in! 

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1 hour ago, RedRock said:

I always have thought that if I ran a football club, I would appoint the best manager money could buy. That position is of far greater importance than any single player and worthy of the best salary in the Club.

Ideally, I’d have the salary weighted towards performance...but that’s down to negotiation.

 

By the sound of it, that would be a £4 million contract for 4 years, equivalent to a couple of CoD’s and a Gustav.

Is this actually true though?  I always wonder about the value of any manager.  If you show me a successful manager, I will show you a manager who had a lot of money to spend.

Also, it seems like even the most successful managers (Pep, Jose, Alex, Arsene) eventually seem to become worse at their jobs.  How can that be if they are great managers?  Is it because they are spending less, or it was never really about them?

On this basis, I would appoint me (£500k pa bargain) and spend the saving on a half-decent midfielder.  Win-win for everyone.

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24 minutes ago, lenred said:

I’d pay extra if it meant the quality of my ‘product’ was better.  Ideally I’d rather divided up the current running costs differently so that the managerial costs were higher and player costs lower but yeah I’d pay I reckon.  I’d also expect my ST to be lower were we to appoint a Lowe or a Ainsworth though and expect it to be free if we brought Flynn in! 

As a further query then. 
Let’s say, to the best of our knowledge, that LJ earned £600k and Ashton earned £500k. 
Hughton wants £1m, but wants recruitment control. 
Do you now remove Ashton too, offer Hughton the £1m, and use the £100k surplus to appoint a different head of recruitment (or head scout in old money)? 

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38 minutes ago, Harry said:

For those who feel we should “just spend the money”, how about this. 
 

SL says “ok customers, oops no sorry, supporters. I’m going to appoint Chris Hughton, but his salary is double that of Lee and so, to cover the difference I’m going to add £50 to all season tickets. 
I thank you for recently renewing your £450 seat. Please can you transfer another £50 before the end of July and we’ll arrange the appointment of Mr Hughton”. 
 

What’s your thoughts now? 
Just a devils advocate kinda query by the way. 

Here's my £50. 

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33 minutes ago, Harry said:

For those who feel we should “just spend the money”, how about this. 
 

SL says “ok customers, oops no sorry, supporters. I’m going to appoint Chris Hughton, but his salary is double that of Lee and so, to cover the difference I’m going to add £50 to all season tickets. 
I thank you for recently renewing your £450 seat. Please can you transfer another £50 before the end of July and we’ll arrange the appointment of Mr Hughton”. 
 

What’s your thoughts now? 
Just a devils advocate kinda query by the way. 

Thats one (unlikely) scenario.

Another could be SL tells Mr Hughton that he gets a salary of double Johnson's plus a bonus of x% for the squad cost he reduces and/or the league position he improves. The club gets the majority of the saving which more than pays for the added salary, and of course an improvement in league position will probably mean added revenue via the playoffs.

The scattergun approach towards recruitment would, I hope be resisted by an experienced manager.

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2 minutes ago, Chivs said:

Is this actually true though?  I always wonder about the value of any manager.  If you show me a successful manager, I will show you a manager who had a lot of money to spend.

Also, it seems like even the most successful managers (Pep, Jose, Alex, Arsene) eventually seem to become worse at their jobs.  How can that be if they are great managers?  Is it because they are spending less, or it was never really about them?

On this basis, I would appoint me (£500k pa bargain) and spend the saving on a half-decent midfielder.  Win-win for everyone.

This is a good question and one I was going to try to research a little if I had time. 
I’ve got this nagging feeling that, as managers get older, they DON’T actually get better. 
I’ve got this feeling that managers are at their very best in jobs 2,3 & 4. 
They have learnings from Job 1, implement improvements in Job 2, become expert in Job 3 and are at their peak in Job 4. 
Once Job 5 arrives, they’re on a decline and within a couple of years would then be considered “a dinosaur”, as the football world modernises and moves on. 
 

This is my one small doubt with Hughton. Are we the job where he begins his decline? Indeed, had his decline already began in his latter Brighton days? Is Gerrard, in Job 2, the better option as we might see him step up after his first job, whereas Hughton might now be on the way down? 
 

Just a theory at the moment, but I’d be interested to look into the sustainability of success in managers. When are they at their peak. I’m sure there is a decline at job 4 or 5 ish. 

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8 minutes ago, Harry said:

As a further query then. 
Let’s say, to the best of our knowledge, that LJ earned £600k and Ashton earned £500k. 
Hughton wants £1m, but wants recruitment control. 
Do you now remove Ashton too, offer Hughton the £1m, and use the £100k surplus to appoint a different head of recruitment (or head scout in old money)? 

Deal.

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1 minute ago, RedRock said:

 

 

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

As a further query then. 
Let’s say, to the best of our knowledge, that LJ earned £600k and Ashton earned £500k. 
Hughton wants £1m, but wants recruitment control. 
Do you now remove Ashton too, offer Hughton the £1m, and use the £100k surplus to appoint a different head of recruitment (or head scout in old money)? 

Yes please.

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43 minutes ago, Harry said:

For those who feel we should “just spend the money”, how about this. 
 

SL says “ok customers, oops no sorry, supporters. I’m going to appoint Chris Hughton, but his salary is double that of Lee and so, to cover the difference I’m going to add £50 to all season tickets. 
I thank you for recently renewing your £450 seat. Please can you transfer another £50 before the end of July and we’ll arrange the appointment of Mr Hughton”. 
 

What’s your thoughts now? 
Just a devils advocate kinda query by the way. 

He’ll be increasing by at least £50 anyway... when he gets to prem league... which he wants to do... and which a top manager will be far more likely to achieve.  

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1 hour ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

I think Wenger was always the highest earner at Arsenal, certainly later into his career, for me it makes complete sense really

Ferguson was the same. Until he left, United's wage ceiling never went as high as some other big clubs.

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7 minutes ago, Harry said:

This is a good question and one I was going to try to research a little if I had time. 
I’ve got this nagging feeling that, as managers get older, they DON’T actually get better. 
I’ve got this feeling that managers are at their very best in jobs 2,3 & 4. 
They have learnings from Job 1, implement improvements in Job 2, become expert in Job 3 and are at their peak in Job 4. 
Once Job 5 arrives, they’re on a decline and within a couple of years would then be considered “a dinosaur”, as the football world modernises and moves on. 
 

This is my one small doubt with Hughton. Are we the job where he begins his decline? Indeed, had his decline already began in his latter Brighton days? Is Gerrard, in Job 2, the better option as we might see him step up after his first job, whereas Hughton might now be on the way down? 
 

Just a theory at the moment, but I’d be interested to look into the sustainability of success in managers. When are they at their peak. I’m sure there is a decline at job 4 or 5 ish. 

I'd be interested to know any outcomes from your research.   It's a good point re. Hughton.  I suppose the corollary to your suggestion are managers like McCarthy, Allardyce, Redknapp who seem to be successful up to about job 15!

And since you ask, the City job would be number 2 for me as I took one match for Madeley Wanderers when the manager was too drunk to turn up one Sunday morning.

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51 minutes ago, Harry said:

For those who feel we should “just spend the money”, how about this. 
 

SL says “ok customers, oops no sorry, supporters. I’m going to appoint Chris Hughton, but his salary is double that of Lee and so, to cover the difference I’m going to add £50 to all season tickets. 
I thank you for recently renewing your £450 seat. Please can you transfer another £50 before the end of July and we’ll arrange the appointment of Mr Hughton”. 
 

What’s your thoughts now? 
Just a devils advocate kinda query by the way. 

Interesting question.  
On the one hand, you could say yes to the extra £50 for getting in a quality manager, but there’s part of me that would like to say, “I would do, if you hadn’t wasted £millions on pointless loans and signings that your previous manager refused to play”

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In general I think money is a poor motivator of people. You need to pay people enough that they will come to work, and not feel hard done by (or be looking over the fence at what the person next to them is being paid) but beyond that, I think people are primarily driven by other things. Or rather - to effectively drive/motivate people to achieve money is actually pretty poor in that regard.

I don't think Hughton will be coming here and trying to get us promoted so he has an extra £%, or at least I'd hope not. I think he'd be doing it for personal or ambitious reasons. He wants to be in control, he wants to get better/test himself (and by extension the club), and he wants to contribute to something bigger than himself. The money should be enough to get him to do the job, but it shouldn't be the reason he's doing it.

edit: That goes for the players, and people in general as well.

Edited by IAmNick
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1 hour ago, Harry said:

For those who feel we should “just spend the money”, how about this. 
 

SL says “ok customers, oops no sorry, supporters. I’m going to appoint Chris Hughton, but his salary is double that of Lee and so, to cover the difference I’m going to add £50 to all season tickets. 
I thank you for recently renewing your £450 seat. Please can you transfer another £50 before the end of July and we’ll arrange the appointment of Mr Hughton”. 
 

What’s your thoughts now? 
Just a devils advocate kinda query by the way. 

Tbf that'll happen if we get promoted. Lansdown will cover the difference until then, but can cash in if and when we get promotion and revenue will go through the roof

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1 hour ago, WirralRobin said:

A bit of context around the £1 million a year for Hughton, Bielsa at Leeds is on around £3.5 million a year (although that does include all his staff, so includes all coaches, data analyst's wages etc too). What a bargain that has turned into for them, it's only 2 years since they were mid table mediocrity!  

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/marcelo-bielsas-bumper-leeds-wage-21962706

IMO, the club needs to pay what it takes to get the best person for the job - whoever they consider that man to be! I can never understand why ridiculous wages are paid to players who might end up losing form, or getting injured, when managers are lower down the wage bill pecking order. After all, its managers who make the big decisions (selection, tactics, formation, substitutions, etc...), and at the end of the day, play a major part in determining whether a club gets promoted, or relegated...

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39 minutes ago, Chivs said:

Also, it seems like even the most successful managers (Pep, Jose, Alex, Arsene) eventually seem to become worse at their jobs.  How can that be if they are great managers?  Is it because they are spending less, or it was never really about them?

 

29 minutes ago, Harry said:

This is a good question and one I was going to try to research a little if I had time. 
I’ve got this nagging feeling that, as managers get older, they DON’T actually get better. 
I’ve got this feeling that managers are at their very best in jobs 2,3 & 4. 
They have learnings from Job 1, implement improvements in Job 2, become expert in Job 3 and are at their peak in Job 4. 
Once Job 5 arrives, they’re on a decline and within a couple of years would then be considered “a dinosaur”, as the football world modernises and moves on. 
 

This is my one small doubt with Hughton. Are we the job where he begins his decline? Indeed, had his decline already began in his latter Brighton days? Is Gerrard, in Job 2, the better option as we might see him step up after his first job, whereas Hughton might now be on the way down? 
 

Just a theory at the moment, but I’d be interested to look into the sustainability of success in managers. When are they at their peak. I’m sure there is a decline at job 4 or 5 ish. 

In the cases of Wenger and Mourinho it is because they were once innovators of the game and simply haven't been able to adapt/innovate to keep up with the new innovators (like Pep). Both too stubborn to change their ethos. 

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

For those who feel we should “just spend the money”, how about this. 
 

SL says “ok customers, oops no sorry, supporters. I’m going to appoint Chris Hughton, but his salary is double that of Lee and so, to cover the difference I’m going to add £50 to all season tickets. 
I thank you for recently renewing your £450 seat. Please can you transfer another £50 before the end of July and we’ll arrange the appointment of Mr Hughton”. 
 

What’s your thoughts now? 
Just a devils advocate kinda query by the way. 

Well, as ST’s sold already exceeds likely capacity, unlikely to raise a lot. For all the Fan hype where it seems to be assumed that appointing CH = guaranteed promotion, SL has to deal with financial reality. Wages, plus backing for signings is a lot of cash when income for at least the next 12 months is likely to be pretty low. In normal times, would be a decent gamble, but right now, any large financial commitment carries huge risks. If he wants the job, he will just have to work within a realistic budget, which may well mean working with what we already have, plus freebies. 
No managerial appointment comes with any guarantees, and we can’t afford to be reckless. To be quite frank, with the current mess and uncertainty, any candidate for an EFL job demanding ‘financial backing’ suggests degrees of delusion and zero grasp of reality.

 

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4 minutes ago, Chappers said:

Well, as ST’s sold already exceeds likely capacity, unlikely to raise a lot. For all the Fan hype where it seems to be assumed that appointing CH = guaranteed promotion, SL has to deal with financial reality. Wages, plus backing for signings is a lot of cash when income for at least the next 12 months is likely to be pretty low. In normal times, would be a decent gamble, but right now, any large financial commitment carries huge risks. If he wants the job, he will just have to work within a realistic budget, which may well mean working with what we already have, plus freebies. 
No managerial appointment comes with any guarantees, and we can’t afford to be reckless. To be quite frank, with the current mess and uncertainty, any candidate for an EFL job demanding ‘financial backing’ suggests degrees of delusion and zero grasp of reality.

 

You could argue that now is the perfect time to steal a march on the competition with if lots of clubs have this mindset

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20 minutes ago, Harry said:

This is a good question and one I was going to try to research a little if I had time. 
I’ve got this nagging feeling that, as managers get older, they DON’T actually get better. 
I’ve got this feeling that managers are at their very best in jobs 2,3 & 4. 
They have learnings from Job 1, implement improvements in Job 2, become expert in Job 3 and are at their peak in Job 4. 
Once Job 5 arrives, they’re on a decline and within a couple of years would then be considered “a dinosaur”, as the football world modernises and moves on. 
 

This is my one small doubt with Hughton. Are we the job where he begins his decline? Indeed, had his decline already began in his latter Brighton days? Is Gerrard, in Job 2, the better option as we might see him step up after his first job, whereas Hughton might now be on the way down? 
 

Just a theory at the moment, but I’d be interested to look into the sustainability of success in managers. When are they at their peak. I’m sure there is a decline at job 4 or 5 ish. 

It's a sweeping generalisation, and all such statements are prone to being proved wrong in certain cases, but actually I think you're broadly correct. It would certainly be accepted in many academic and/or scientific circles that your best work is done early in your career when you're still young. A lot of professors who made their reputation with ground-breaking work are often effectively just departmental figure heads and administrators by the time they've reached retirement age. Respected for their past achievements, of course, and often turned to in an advisory role, but certainly no longer at the cutting edge. Maybe it's the same with elite coaches. 

2 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

In general I think money is a poor motivator of people. You need to pay people enough that they will come to work, and not feel hard done by (or be looking over the fence at what the person next to them is being paid) but beyond that, I think people are primarily driven by other things. Or rather - to effectively drive/motivate people to achieve money is actually pretty poor in that regard.

I don't think Hughton will be coming here and trying to get us promoted so he has an extra £%, or at least I'd hope not. I think he'd be doing it for personal or ambitious reasons. He wants to be in control, he wants to get better/test himself (and by extension the club), and he wants to contribute to something bigger than himself. The money should be enough to get him to do the job, but it shouldn't be the reason he's doing it.

I think this is also true for many successful people. Hughton is, I believe, aged 61 now, and has been in the professional game pretty much all his working life. We all know his CV by now: suffice to say he has held a number of highly remunerated positions in that time. Unless he's been remarkably reckless in the management of his wealth, he will be financially secure and have no need to work again purely for money. He will welcome the additional income, sure, but if he was motivated by that alone, he'd have taken another job by now. So, we will have to appeal to him in other respects, as well as in terms of monetary rewards, but, and it's a big but, he will still have to be offered a salary that is commensurate with his status in the game and reflects his past achievements. Money may not be his prime motivator, but he won't come cheap. 

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

For those who feel we should “just spend the money”, how about this. 
 

SL says “ok customers, oops no sorry, supporters. I’m going to appoint Chris Hughton, but his salary is double that of Lee and so, to cover the difference I’m going to add £50 to all season tickets. 
I thank you for recently renewing your £450 seat. Please can you transfer another £50 before the end of July and we’ll arrange the appointment of Mr Hughton”. 
 

What’s your thoughts now? 
Just a devils advocate kinda query by the way. 

Conversely he could look at a somewhat bloated playing squad and sell on some of the dross (and there are a few) which would more than cover the extra needed to pay a decent manager with the wages saved.  Let's also remember the huge financial rewards said manager would bring to the club in the event of promotion to the PL. No brainer for me.

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12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

You could argue that now is the perfect time to steal a march on the competition with if lots of clubs have this mindset

You could, but you could equally argue that it comes with no guarantees and could put the future of the club at risk. 

1 minute ago, BigTone said:

Conversely he could look at a somewhat bloated playing squad and sell on some of the dross (and there are a few) which would more than cover the extra needed to pay a decent manager. Let's also remember the huge financial rewards said manager would bring to the club in the event of promotion to the PL. No brainer for me.

And the EFL clubs with money to buy our surplus players are....???

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1 minute ago, Chappers said:

You could, but you could equally argue that it comes with no guarantees and could put the future of the club at risk. 

And the EFL clubs with money to buy our surplus players are....???

That is something we do not know in these strange times as you are well aware.

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

As a further query then. 
Let’s say, to the best of our knowledge, that LJ earned £600k and Ashton earned £500k. 
Hughton wants £1m, but wants recruitment control. 
Do you now remove Ashton too, offer Hughton the £1m, and use the £100k surplus to appoint a different head of recruitment (or head scout in old money)? 

Wrote out a long spiel about MA and his team but I can’t be bothered with the name calling again from certain quarters so.....Yes I would much rather have CH + new head scout over LJ and MA and his team. I believe CH or someone of his ilk is exactly what this club needs to progress above all else and would go all out to get it. But as others have said - easy when it’s not your money!

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

For those who feel we should “just spend the money”, how about this. 
 

SL says “ok customers, oops no sorry, supporters. I’m going to appoint Chris Hughton, but his salary is double that of Lee and so, to cover the difference I’m going to add £50 to all season tickets. 
I thank you for recently renewing your £450 seat. Please can you transfer another £50 before the end of July and we’ll arrange the appointment of Mr Hughton”. 
 

What’s your thoughts now? 
Just a devils advocate kinda query by the way. 

It’s devil’s advocate alright!!  Not gonna happen though....not 20/21, maybe 21/22 though!

At the end of the day, CH and his assistants (whether existing or new) take up budget.  We are typically a loss making business, supplemented by Steve. The new manager needs to be up to speed on the overall budget, as that will affect their recruitment strategy.  To go into a role, purely thinking about your own salary is blinkered and unlikely to be the case also.

Irrespective of CH’s salary, SL and MA ain’t gonna be giving him £20m (net) to spend.  Same with any incoming appointment.  That might rule out some.  If we ignore previous financial years, any recruitment, we are looking at a £20-25m loss.  That’s £7-12m too much.  However you can allow Academy etc so that’s probably £3m better, so £4-9m loss.  Add back in loss of revenue from covid, say £4m, and we are talking £8-£13m loss if FFP was done every year....so we’d have to sell a fair bit before we buy.

However, we’ve built a bit of headroom, and I think a new manager could expect to spend what they bring in.

So that’s the expectation of money available to the new man.  That will make some run away.

1 hour ago, Chivs said:

Is this actually true though?  I always wonder about the value of any manager.  If you show me a successful manager, I will show you a manager who had a lot of money to spend.

Also, it seems like even the most successful managers (Pep, Jose, Alex, Arsene) eventually seem to become worse at their jobs.  How can that be if they are great managers?  Is it because they are spending less, or it was never really about them?

On this basis, I would appoint me (£500k pa bargain) and spend the saving on a half-decent midfielder.  Win-win for everyone.

Gareth Ainsworth has just shouted “hold my beer” 

1 hour ago, Harry said:

As a further query then. 
Let’s say, to the best of our knowledge, that LJ earned £600k and Ashton earned £500k. 
Hughton wants £1m, but wants recruitment control. 
Do you now remove Ashton too, offer Hughton the £1m, and use the £100k surplus to appoint a different head of recruitment (or head scout in old money)? 

Me personally, yes 😂😂😂

39 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

In general I think money is a poor motivator of people. You need to pay people enough that they will come to work, and not feel hard done by (or be looking over the fence at what the person next to them is being paid) but beyond that, I think people are primarily driven by other things. Or rather - to effectively drive/motivate people to achieve money is actually pretty poor in that regard.

I don't think Hughton will be coming here and trying to get us promoted so he has an extra £%, or at least I'd hope not. I think he'd be doing it for personal or ambitious reasons. He wants to be in control, he wants to get better/test himself (and by extension the club), and he wants to contribute to something bigger than himself. The money should be enough to get him to do the job, but it shouldn't be the reason he's doing it.

edit: That goes for the players, and people in general as well.

We sensed that with LJ.  He knew the “project”, he knew the budgets.  He accepted the objectives set.  He ultimately came up short.  SL said that.

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