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2 hours ago, CyderInACan said:

The Cardiff game was so bad even the cardboard crowdies were booing. 

They started leaving 20 minutes before the end!

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3 hours ago, GlastonburyRed said:

I think it's widely accepted in business that a lack of insight/self-awareness can be detrimental to team performance, particularly when that lack of insight is from the one calling the shots. Will LJ ask for a different perspective or be welcoming critical feedback ahead of/in his next role? If not, then his professional growth and managerial career may well be stunted. I guess it comes down to, somewhat ironically, how much he is willing to trust others in their appraisal of him and how he might address matters such as:

* Listening to, or accepting, critical feedback;

* Empathising with, or taking the perspective of, others;

* 'Reading the room', and tailoring his message accordingly:

* Possessing an inflated opinion of his contribution and performance;

* Hurting others without realising it;

* Taking credit for successes and blaming others for failures. 

I am not saying that LJ is guilty of all of the above, nor even the majority of that laundry list. However, merely as an outsider looking in, and how LJ conducts his press, if I was him I would focus my efforts to improve on self-awareness. LJ is still very young in managerial terms and I think some reflection is called for if he doesn't want City to be his highest ever placed finisher.

I think he ticks all your boxes in some way.

Only heard the other day (alleged) that some of the established players were a bit pissed off that he stole a lot of the cup-run limelight.

We will see a lot about Dean Holden tomorrow night, and whether he was towing the line or not.

Pembo and Cotts were close-knit, but the assistant doesn’t make decisions.  As an example Pembo went straight to a back 4 when Cotts was sacked.

I actually think LJ is a bit insecure about his own abilities.  Those nervous giggles when he’s fibbing, the touch of the ear, etc.  I think he’s desperate to be better and different to his dad, but he’s looked at the football style / theory as the way to be different and ignored his dad’s superior man management skills.

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4 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Firstly, I don’t want this to turn into a bashing thread on LJ. However, just a question to ask...

I have seen comments/reports to say he was distraught when he was fired, that it came as a shock to him. Think this was backed up in Holden’s interview yesterday.

Can this really be the case? Was he that blind to what was going on on the pitch that he thought he was doing a good job? I’m starting to think he believed in everything he said in his post match interviews and he wasn’t playing for time.

It surprises me even more that it came as a shock to him when you look at his track record. Arguably there has been a case for his sacking in every season, including his spell at Barnsley, given the winless runs he has without fail.

You're being your opinion on this on comments/reports rather than actually seeing him and gauging his reaction.

I'd imagine he was distraught. It's a job he's been in for 4.5 years at club he's been at for over 10. People say he was clueless or too short or whatever, but no-one has said he didn't care or try his hardest. He may feel like he has let his colleagues, players, bosses, family, fans down. It IS a shame he couldn't turn it around and the many posts I've seen whereby even if he DID get us promoted they still wouldn't want him manager shows how personal it was that some fans didn't like/despised him.

It may have come as a shock to him as SL may have told him 2 weeks ago, "we'll give you until the end of the season to show some real progress/improvement". 2 naff performances later and maybe MA convinced SL that a change is needed. You just don't know.

I think the fact the times LJ would chop and change the starting 11 and tactics was during one of his losing/not winning runs shows he knew it was going wrong, he just didn't know/couldnt get the right ways to change it.

If we take emotion out of it, you could probably judge LJs full tenure as a good job. Performances in the first two years were very good, bordering on excellent at times, but often some poor results. Since then, performances have not been good sometimes terrible, but we're not really THAT far off points, etc that we have the last few years. But it is enough for us fans and SL to want the next level and yes, it may be a season or two too late, but again, if LJ did click with his mis-givings, we could have had another Dyche or Howe on our hands.

Even finishing where we are now in 12th would constitute an 'average' season. 7-10th = good season. Play offs = excellent. Autos = Perfect

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4 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

I believe he built a monster and lost control of it .

 


 

I’m not sure about the rest of the post one way or the other, however this is true.

LJ built a monster with SLs money to get us to not even within spitting distance of the top six after four years and lord knows how many transfer windows.

SL is a damn good bloke who stuck by his man, bless him, but he must have thought so many times 6/7/8/9m for players that produced turgid, hump it to fammy ball, whilst making elementary mistakes all over the field was not what he was writing the checks for!

People talk about LJs coaching ability, what coaching ability? Our club has turned excellent players like Wells and Kalas into substitutes whilst losing the ability to challenge, sacrificed on the alter of coaching ego. If he was a master tactician with multi millions available with the best or near best academy in the division we would and should have been better. 

We were not! 

I wish the guy well I really do, but I feel the opportunity provided by Steve to LJ was wasted, all bar a couple of cup ties three years ago....The MO of the last three seasons is start well then fnck it up in the second half and yet again we have done it! 

I don’t feel sorry for LJ he will get his contract paid and get a job somewhere else, I feel sorry for Steve, he wants one thing for this club and City, sporting success, and when we get it he will have earned it!!

 

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For SL it must have come to the point where it was embarrassing to have an under achiever on his team, imagine the damage LJ was doing to the credibility of his boss.

SL’s appointment = SL’s failure

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LJ is going to have another wake up call when he lands his next job. No way is he going to find a boss that affords him as much time and as many chances as SL.

He's going to have to up his game in a big way to survive. Might be the best thing for him TBH

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It all went wrong pretty quickly after lockdown.  Before that he was on track to improve (in therms of league position) on last year.

With games coming so fast he probably didn't have that much time to reflect on the broader implications of this run of defeats.  Other than the usual reviews with players to try and correct particular issues.

If he did have thinking time it may have been more around player recruitment for the upcoming campaign.

I don't necessarily see it as arrogance.  I think the confidence he has in his own ability (albeit inflated) meant he always reacted calmly to any questions posed to him post-match.  I really liked his calmness, just not so keen on some of doublespeak at times. 

For all he achieved for us I'd contrast that with defensive/confrontational nature of how Cotterill used to come across - the interviewers must have been terrified.  Other than the success he brought - which obviously a massive deal - I found it difficult to like Cotterill.  

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I posted on another thread that when we had that cup run against Man U and Man C, Lee was getting a lot of attention,and rightly so, for the performances he was getting from the squad at that time. I believe he thought he had arrived at the big time and was equal to his peers, sadly not the case. He believed the hype and thought he was untouchable at BCFC. After that cup exit things started to go wrong but he never thought it was ever his fault. players regularly thrown under the bus despite being played out of position. I think he lost the respect of the players and once that happens, its only gonna end one way, which it has. Good luck in the future Lee, but it wont be that easy with a sacking on your cv.

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Lee Bowyer on the shortlist to become the next Bristol City manager, although Chris Hughton remains the front-runner #bcfc #cafc
 

This is a reporter from Sky. 

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22 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Lee Bowyer on the shortlist to become the next Bristol City manager, although Chris Hughton remains the front-runner #bcfc #cafc
 

This is a reporter from Sky. 

Wrong thread.

Apologies!

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38 minutes ago, marmite said:

I posted on another thread that when we had that cup run against Man U and Man C, Lee was getting a lot of attention,and rightly so, for the performances he was getting from the squad at that time. I believe he thought he had arrived at the big time and was equal to his peers, sadly not the case. He believed the hype and thought he was untouchable at BCFC. After that cup exit things started to go wrong but he never thought it was ever his fault. players regularly thrown under the bus despite being played out of position. I think he lost the respect of the players and once that happens, its only gonna end one way, which it has. Good luck in the future Lee, but it wont be that easy with a sacking on your cv.

Reckon that's spot on.

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His contract has been mentioned a few times in this thread.  How much time was left on his contract?

Also, the players are always responsible too.  One man doesn't control everything.  You can take a horse to water.......

No one is professional all of the time including us on here who go to work.  we expect so much of players, but then again they are so well paid, so adored, so looked after that they shouldn't not put in 100% with the result of the Manager being sacked.

 

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think he ticks all your boxes in some way.

Only heard the other day (alleged) that some of the established players were a bit pissed off that he stole a lot of the cup-run limelight.

We will see a lot about Dean Holden tomorrow night, and whether he was towing the line or not.

Pembo and Cotts were close-knit, but the assistant doesn’t make decisions.  As an example Pembo went straight to a back 4 when Cotts was sacked.

I actually think LJ is a bit insecure about his own abilities.  Those nervous giggles when he’s fibbing, the touch of the ear, etc.  I think he’s desperate to be better and different to his dad, but he’s looked at the football style / theory as the way to be different and ignored his dad’s superior man management skills.

I think if you are an assistant who has ambitions to be a manager (not saying DH does) then if you get a chance as caretaker manager you have to make changes to be able to impress. You have to win over fans - who will be very skeptical and the board.  For DH to have any chance of getting the job he would need to show his style is different to LJ (thus distancing himself from what was wrong) and be successful and exciting enough to win over fans and generate some momentum for his appointment. 

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Oh yes, let's blame the midfield for being poor without considering that they may have looked worse than they were because of how they were setup. Possibly a mix of the two factors?

The truth is, managers need that iron self-belief. I'd say it is a prerequisite.

LJ was clearly going wrong but any- any- manager these days will have that confidence and self-belief, and think they will change it, or can get it right- to the bitter end.

I also don't mean quitting if you can't agree new contractual terms or too low a budget. Solely results/performances.

I don't see any reason for surprise- how often do managers quit for on the pitch reasons these days? I don't mean to retire, to go to bigger and better (in their view) or because of off the pitch problems/interfering owners whatever.

How many actually say "It's going wrong, I can no longer turn it round, I can no longer do this etc because of on-field reasons"- it's rare in the extreme I'd say! Happy to be corrected of course but it doesn't seem to happen much now at all in recent times.

I don't see why people are or would be surprised- it's how things have evolved basically, now. I don't see why LJ would be any different?

Neil Harris possibly the only example in recent times I can think of off-hand who quit due to on field results. Even that's not fully clear.

1 hour ago, cityfan said:

His contract has been mentioned a few times in this thread.  How much time was left on his contract?

Also, the players are always responsible too.  One man doesn't control everything.  You can take a horse to water.......

No one is professional all of the time including us on here who go to work.  we expect so much of players, but then again they are so well paid, so adored, so looked after that they shouldn't not put in 100% with the result of the Manager being sacked.

 

About 3 years I think. Possibly a month or two less- but to all intents and purposes that's basically 3 years.

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7 hours ago, Robbored said:

 

If he was surprised then I’m equally surprised that he didn’t see it coming.

I’m equally surprised that you’re your equally surprised  that he was (possibly) surprised. 

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3 hours ago, RedSkin said:

It all went wrong pretty quickly after lockdown.  Before that he was on track to improve (in therms of league position) on last year.

With games coming so fast he probably didn't have that much time to reflect on the broader implications of this run of defeats.  Other than the usual reviews with players to try and correct particular issues.

If he did have thinking time it may have been more around player recruitment for the upcoming campaign.

I don't necessarily see it as arrogance.  I think the confidence he has in his own ability (albeit inflated) meant he always reacted calmly to any questions posed to him post-match.  I really liked his calmness, just not so keen on some of doublespeak at times. 

For all he achieved for us I'd contrast that with defensive/confrontational nature of how Cotterill used to come across - the interviewers must have been terrified.  Other than the success he brought - which obviously a massive deal - I found it difficult to like Cotterill.  

I beg to differ on that.

The curtailed March and full February run of 8 league games yielded 8 points I think, which is relegation form. We wouldn't go down but certainly were not looking upwards on the basis of that form.

Anyone else would be mindful of the precarious position of a football coach/manager particularly when there was clearly no improvement upon resumption.

Arrogance or inflated sense of worth, the end result is the same. He didn't deliver and even the patronage of Mr Lansdown had to end.

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35 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

I beg to differ on that.

The curtailed March and full February run of 8 league games yielded 8 points I think, which is relegation form. We wouldn't go down but certainly were not looking upwards on the basis of that form.

Anyone else would be mindful of the precarious position of a football coach/manager particularly when there was clearly no improvement upon resumption.

Arrogance or inflated sense of worth, the end result is the same. He didn't deliver and even the patronage of Mr Lansdown had to end.

Maybe I should've been clearer.  In LJ's eyes it went wrong after the lockdown.  He was still in track to achieve top six.  Just trying to reason why he was so shocked with being sacked.

For me I couldn't see much 'identity' for any sustained period after we stopped our pressing game I.e. since the League Cup run when we fell away badly.   Losing Reid and the long term injury to Korey were key players for our high press tbf. 

Having Webster enabled us to perform well in spells, but it hasn't been anything approaching entertaining for a long long time.  

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3 hours ago, cityironman said:

Sounds like he knows his stuff, Sign him up he should be worlds ahead of any other candidate! (Sorry i'll get me coat......)

He'd certainly know how to deal with stars. ( I'll get my coat as well!)

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LJ knew at the start of the season what he needed to do. he took the challenge,obvious what would happen if he failed.

the players cant have liked him that much or they would have put a lot more effort into trying to achieve the goal,instead of which, since blackburn they have been happy to just play the games out like it was a no win situation so why bother. thats how it looked to me, even with the odd selections, you would have expected a bit more huff and puff even if the football was poor

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3 minutes ago, redsquirrel said:

LJ knew at the start of the season what he needed to do. he took the challenge,obvious what would happen if he failed.

the players cant have liked him that much or they would have put a lot more effort into trying to achieve the goal,instead of which, since blackburn they have been happy to just play the games out like it was a no win situation so why bother. thats how it looked to me, even with the odd selections, you would have expected a bit more huff and puff even if the football was poor

One bit of grace that we could give Johnson is that with the significant squad upheaval last summer, there was always going to be the possibility that this year was a transition year.

We should dig out an expectations thread because I dare say a lot of us acknowledged the difficult task ahead of him.

Having said that, his approach to that challenge has so frequently been so incomprehensible that it's hard to give him the credit he's due. 

Mid table actually isn't a bad outcome considering so many new faces in the picture. But the journey that brought us here is littered with chopping, changing, blaming, negativity (on the pitch) and lack of taking responsibility (off it).

He'll say, look at the hand I was dealt. 

We'd say, well you should have played it so differently. 

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11 hours ago, Redrascal2 said:

I think he believed his own bullsh1t. He spouted so much that he convinced himself it was true.

To be honest, there are plenty on OTIB that also fit that description!

 

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23 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Firstly, I don’t want this to turn into a bashing thread on LJ. However, just a question to ask...

I have seen comments/reports to say he was distraught when he was fired, that it came as a shock to him. Think this was backed up in Holden’s interview yesterday.

Can this really be the case? Was he that blind to what was going on on the pitch that he thought he was doing a good job? I’m starting to think he believed in everything he said in his post match interviews and he wasn’t playing for time.

It surprises me even more that it came as a shock to him when you look at his track record. Arguably there has been a case for his sacking in every season, including his spell at Barnsley, given the winless runs he has without fail.

 

To be fair, one can be aware the Sword of Damocles is hanging over you and still be distraught when it falls. The two are not mutually exclusive.

He'd have been aware his job was at risk, but still shocked when it actually goes. I think everyone is probably shocked when they get the sack - even if, on reflection, they might have deserved it.

As for self-belief, that goes with the job. Football managers face very short tenures and can be sacked for things that are not their fault at all, or not entirely their fault. Only way you can cope with that level of insecurity is by having cast-iron self belief. You can hardly expect to inspire your team if they detect you don't believe in yourself.

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On 07/07/2020 at 08:56, formerly known as ivan said:

Firstly, I don’t want this to turn into a bashing thread on LJ. However, just a question to ask...

I have seen comments/reports to say he was distraught when he was fired, that it came as a shock to him. Think this was backed up in Holden’s interview yesterday.

Can this really be the case? Was he that blind to what was going on on the pitch that he thought he was doing a good job? I’m starting to think he believed in everything he said in his post match interviews and he wasn’t playing for time.

It surprises me even more that it came as a shock to him when you look at his track record. Arguably there has been a case for his sacking in every season, including his spell at Barnsley, given the winless runs he has without fail.

To be less flippant.

LJ had to have belief in himself to do what he was doing.

I however suspect the self-belief blinded LJ of the need for results in a timely fashion - he forgot that football was a results orientated game.
Watching him work was like watching a project manager who takes some requirements, does some work, tinkering with the requirements, doing some more work, ad infinitum. At some point, he might have got to the finished 'product' but we'd all be dead and buried waiting.

Someone should have been reminding him of what he was supposed to be doing and maybe that was a failure of the board? Maybe they got wrapped up in his vision? We will never know because we are just spectators - we can speculate, assume etc. but that's an activity that's just wasteful.

Anyone who has invested a significant amount of themselves in a 'project' will inevitably be upset when things get canned. How Lee deals with this, and if he learns from it, will determine if he ever becomes a great manager. I hope he does learn from this experience, dusts himself down and proves everyone wrong. Good luck Lee.

I also hope that the board learns from this because if they don't, we'll forever be the nearly men.

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