Riaz Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, BCFC Grim said: Every team lose players. I can read off the players Brentford have lost if you like? Lose all the players in the world, but we should have an identity on how we play. We don't. After four years I'd say that is pretty poor. 1 minute ago, Robbored said: LJ losing his better players pretty much every window was something I mentioned on here in the context of despite that he was doing a decent enough job ‘with one hand tied behind his back’ However it was pointed out to me that many, if not all Championship managers lose players on a regular basis yet still manage to do well. Brentford were used as one example. That wasn’t something I’d considered............... Brentford are the exception i'd argue. Most teams struggle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogbad the Bad Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 hours ago, bengalcub said: Controversial i know but he's given alot to our club as a player and the manager , i respect him alot for having the balls to manage our club given how well he was doing at barnsley Very debatable that LJ was 'doing well' at Barnsley - 20 wins in 51 games, including iirc. an abysmal 8 game losing run only a few months before he left when Barnsley fans were calling for his head - seems patchy at best. Surely not the sort of record at a lower level that would have convinced a Championship club he should be their new coach in normal circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatchers Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 Very few,if any,teams are not selling clubs. Every player has a price. Especially at our level. If we had sold players and not spent money on bringing other players in I could see the argument. But on this forum a number of the players sold was seen as good business by the club. The disruption to the teams performances were more to do with the constant and needless tombola team selections. I believe that defence and midfield should be the foundation to a settled side. Not constant pick and mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrizzleRed Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Riaz said: Okay more context... First full season, he lost Kodjia Than had Tammy Abraham, lost him Bobby Reid started banging in goals... he lost him, along with Aden Flint and Joe Bryan. The next summer he lost Adam Webster and then half way thru this season he lost Josh Brownhill. All those players apart from maybe Flint, are all class players at this level and some of them premier league level... Makes his improvement of us even more impressive... most city managers in my memory, have struggled once they lost one player... let alone a few... He did ‘lose’ all these players, but they also all had a very noticeable dip in form prior to leaving and appeared to be shadows of the players they had been at their best. Maybe they all knew there was interest, but I’d strongly suspect they’d just decided they wanted out anyway and their heart wasn’t in the job. There is the well used argument that LJ was constantly having his best players sold out from under him, but an alternative view could be that a number of his star players no longer wanted to play under him, so pushed for moves. Obviously, the club was going to cash in on players with a high transfer value, but it looks pretty likely they all wanted to leave and were not just told by the club they were going to be sold regardless. Possibly if these players had any confidence we were really going places, they may have wanted to stay. It appears they felt this wasn’t going to happen in the near future and they needed to leave to progress their careers. Imho, rather than being a victim of these sales, LJ could possibly have been the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 hours ago, bengalcub said: Controversial i know but he's given alot to our club as a player and the manager , i respect him alot for having the balls to manage our club given how well he was doing at barnsley and also the fact he knew he was marmite as a player here and hia appointment wouldnt/didnt go down well with some , his appointment was greeted with some positive some negetive and some meh .... but on the whole hes done well for our club and given us some great highs that far outweigh the lows , the man u game and cup run will define his time here and has given us all memories that will last the next 20 years or so. The timing i feel was right to part ways and move on , i was in the meh camp and remained their throughout his time but on reflection now thank you lee for what you've given to the club and the memories you have given me and fellow reds . Good luck in the future ....and been paid many thousands for doing "alot for our club" by fans who helped to pay his wages; he like many others before are just passing through this our club. yes we have had our moments in one off cup games, but also remember record breaking winless runs and some truly unbelievable selections/game plans lost the plot in the end just like his dad. Took us as far as he was ever going to take us......next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galley is our king Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Natchfever said: A poor appointment based upon nothing but nepotism. He did a poor job for the club on and off the pitch and got away with it for years. Lets dee how good he is on an even playing field. I'd also like to see how he is on an even playing field....... Because he never had that here!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 21 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said: He did ‘lose’ all these players, but they also all had a very noticeable dip in form prior to leaving and appeared to be shadows of the players they had been at their best. Maybe they all knew there was interest, but I’d strongly suspect they’d just decided they wanted out anyway and their heart wasn’t in the job. There is the well used argument that LJ was constantly having his best players sold out from under him, but an alternative view could be that a number of his star players no longer wanted to play under him, so pushed for moves. Obviously, the club was going to cash in on players with a high transfer value, but it looks pretty likely they all wanted to leave and were not just told by the club they were going to be sold regardless. Possibly if these players had any confidence we were really going places, they may have wanted to stay. It appears they felt this wasn’t going to happen in the near future and they needed to leave to progress their careers. Imho, rather than being a victim of these sales, LJ could possibly have been the cause. Yes the cause, by improving the player to the point where premier league clubs want them Victim of his own success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Riaz said: You joking right? This season aside, he improved us every season. We were staring relegation in the face when he took over... Some people have very short memories. With respect that's not the case. Pemberton steadied the ship initially. He nearly took us down on his first streak He was definitely not improving us this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Natchfever said: With respect that's not the case. Pemberton steadied the ship initially. He nearly took us down on his first streak He was definitely not improving us this season. Steadied the ship? got 2 wins out of 6. Still a very poor side - LJ took us up the table and improved us every season until this one and thats why he was sacked... The club is alot bigger and way more established that when he took over in February 2016 - you cant deny that... So to say he did a bad job, simply isnt true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Red Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, Natchfever said: With respect that's not the case. Pemberton steadied the ship initially. He nearly took us down on his first streak He was definitely not improving us this season. You proper hate him, don't you? To the point where he could have got us promoted, into Europe, won a trophy and you'd still refuse to give him any credit at all. And you're not the only one either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10 Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 City are a mid table side, with a mid table budget and a mid table squad! LJ had massive ups and massive downs but no more than any other manager working with another team in the same situation. Overall the club has moved from a middle to bottom team to a middle to top team during his tenure. He is most definitely owed thanks for the work he has done, now the plan is to move higher again I agree the time had come for a change but anyone who says he’s not done anything for this club is closed minded. Get some perspective!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Riaz said: Okay more context... First full season, he lost Kodjia Than had Tammy Abraham, lost him Bobby Reid started banging in goals... he lost him, along with Aden Flint and Joe Bryan. The next summer he lost Adam Webster and then half way thru this season he lost Josh Brownhill. All those players apart from maybe Flint, are all class players at this level and some of them premier league level... Makes his improvement of us even more impressive... most city managers in my memory, have struggled once they lost one player... let alone a few... Lots of coaches lose players to bigger clubs Riaz and unlike many he got all the receipts to go get replacements. Kodjia and Reid sold at absolutely the right time, and Bobby hasn't really set the world alight since and may well not have done so for us - if he had been prepared to remain that is. Flinty again went at the right time and i'm not sure he would have stayed at City with LJ around. Webster great business and has been a loss like he would have been at any Champ club. Many would say Dasilva is an upgrade on Joe. Tammy was a loanee so never any aspirations to keep someone so clearly destined for the top. Brownhill went on January 30th so not that many games played since really and the form was middling well before then i'd suggest. Not really fair to compare Johnson's reign with any other City manager as his backing was unparalelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumRed Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, dave36 said: It’s a bit like a divorce- there were good times but a lot more bad times - time to go our separate ways but we don’t need any more agro - you will be financially secure, hope you find happiness soon I missed out on the ‘financially secure’ bit in my divorce, no one told me about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanatopia Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 12 minutes ago, Riaz said: Yes the cause, by improving the player to the point where premier league clubs want them Victim of his own success? Perhaps you are describing exactly what Lee J is good at although I make no claims to know him or make assumptions as to his abilities but; being a good coach is one thing and managing quite different. Perhaps this was the missing link with LJ and could well dog his career unless he finds a set up somewhere that the club in question has a 'managerial' post in place that actually and harmoniously can flourish with a Lee Johnson type. I suspect that might mean a Teutonic destination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrizzleRed Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Riaz said: Yes the cause, by improving the player to the point where premier league clubs want them Victim of his own success? Could be Riaz. I wish he could have improved a few others, but there’s certainly no disputing the club is clearly in a better place now than when he joined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 37 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said: He did ‘lose’ all these players, but they also all had a very noticeable dip in form prior to leaving and appeared to be shadows of the players they had been at their best. Maybe they all knew there was interest, but I’d strongly suspect they’d just decided they wanted out anyway and their heart wasn’t in the job. There is the well used argument that LJ was constantly having his best players sold out from under him, but an alternative view could be that a number of his star players no longer wanted to play under him, so pushed for moves. Obviously, the club was going to cash in on players with a high transfer value, but it looks pretty likely they all wanted to leave and were not just told by the club they were going to be sold regardless. Possibly if these players had any confidence we were really going places, they may have wanted to stay. It appears they felt this wasn’t going to happen in the near future and they needed to leave to progress their careers. Imho, rather than being a victim of these sales, LJ could possibly have been the cause. Very good observation. Maybe Marlon Pack the only one who possibly wanted to stay ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tin Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 I'm in the poor appointment based on nepotism camp, but I'm grateful for half a season of entertainment in 2017/18 which included beating United and going toe-to-toe with Man City. That's where it ended. That shouldn't gloss over the fact he's had more money than any manager I can remember in 28 years supporting City, not taking responsibility for his own failings, the boring football etc. I could go on but it's been done to death. He's gone, move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrizzleRed Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Natchfever said: Very good observation. Maybe Marlon Pack the only one who possibly wanted to stay ? Yeah, that was an odd one. Felt very much like we offered him to Cardiff, rather than them approaching us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 This nonsense about the money he spent.... He lost over 60m worth of talent, so he's not actually spent any of the clubs money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, Northern Red said: You proper hate him, don't you? To the point where he could have got us promoted, into Europe, won a trophy and you'd still refuse to give him any credit at all. And you're not the only one either. I'll let others speak for themselves, but it seems to me that you are making the defence that was always made of Lee Johnson against the critics. That at some point in the future he'd get us promoted, into Europe and win trophies...and then the unbelievers would see they had been wrong all along. And that anyone who didn't think he was God's gift must hate him. What I saw was a moderately talented football coach who'd been given an opportunity through family connections that he'd never have had otherwise, occasionally playing a blinder but for long periods struggling and out of his depth. I never thought we'd get promoted, get into Europe or win anything under Lee Johnson's management. I was right. His supporters were deluded...not that you see them acknowledging it. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice chap but I'm absolutely delighted he has gone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Oil Services Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 23 minutes ago, Riaz said: Steadied the ship? got 2 wins out of 6. Let's get this right. Cotts last game was Preston, 1:2. Pemberton then had four games: Middlesbrough 1:0 Leeds away 0:1 Birmingham 0:0 Charlton away 1:0. Two wins and a draw, in four games. Lee took over after Charlton and his first game was Ipswich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said: Let's get this right. Cotts last game was Preston, 1:2. Pemberton then had four games: Middlesbrough 1:0 Leeds away 0:1 Birmingham 0:0 Charlton away 1:0. Two wins and a draw, in four games. Lee took over after Charlton and his first game was Ipswich. You missed out the loss to West Brom. My mistake. 5 games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Riaz said: Brentford are the exception i'd argue. Most teams struggle. Perhaps, if you look at expenditure last summer though for example (I know it's not the be all and end all, but a reasonable metric): The top 6: WBA: £10.91m income Leeds: £27.36m income Brentford: £8.15m income Fulham: £7.65m expenditure Forest: £6.53m income Cardiff: £1.61m income It's not like we're the only ones bringing in a lot of money. Source: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/transfers/wettbewerb/GB2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 47 minutes ago, Northern Red said: You proper hate him, don't you? To the point where he could have got us promoted, into Europe, won a trophy and you'd still refuse to give him any credit at all. And you're not the only one either. Sorry am I being whooshed here or are you ******* serious ? He could not have got us promoted, into Europe or win a trophy any more than Brian Tinnion so your point is moot. I didn't like him as a player or a coach and i'm definitely not the only one but if he had delivered i'd have given him loads of credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 minute ago, IAmNick said: Perhaps, if you look at expenditure last summer though for example (I know it's not the be all and end all, but a reasonable metric): The top 6: WBA: £10.91m income Leeds: £27.36m income Brentford: £8.15m income Fulham: £7.65m expenditure Forest: £6.53m income Cardiff: £1.61m income It's not like we're the only ones bringing in a lot of money. Source: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/transfers/wettbewerb/GB2 Now go and look at the wage budgets of those sides... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Riaz said: Now go and look at the wage budgets of those sides... Right, but you were talking about having to sell his best players. I'm simply saying it's the nature of being a championship club that you have to sell your better players for a lot of money most years. On wage budgets, this site: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/how-final-championship-table-would-16506843 says Forest, Brentford, and Leeds all have very similar wage budgets to us in 2018/19 - not sure if this seasons are available yet, others who pay more attention to that kind of thing will know better than me. You could also look at expenditure: WBA: £18.63m Leeds: £0! Brentford: £28.49m Fulham: £33.3m Forest: £6.75m Cardiff: £16.21m Us: £29.39m I'm not saying Lee had an easy job, and these numbers certainly don't paint a full picture - but saying "we have to sell all our best players every year to make money" is only relevant if it's in comparison to the other clubs around us, or those we're trying to emulate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redtucks Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 hours ago, CodeRed said: Oh come on....... it's well known you sent a 'Sorry you're leaving" card to Gary Johnson Pity we don't get the opportunity to send one to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrizzleRed Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 I think this thread typifies why it was a huge mistake bringing in LJ as HC ..... he massively divided the fanbase as a player and as many of us expected, he continued that as Head Coach. I really hope the new man, whoever that may be can be far more universally accepted by the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Riaz said: He turned us from relegation fodder to an established top half club - While constantly losing his best players He did a very good job for us. I love it when people say “lost his best players” but conveniently decided to omit “and replaced them with better ones who he couldn’t get to perform”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
054123 Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Riaz said: Okay more context... First full season, he lost Kodjia Than had Tammy Abraham, lost him Bobby Reid started banging in goals... he lost him, along with Aden Flint and Joe Bryan. The next summer he lost Adam Webster and then half way thru this season he lost Josh Brownhill. All those players apart from maybe Flint, are all class players at this level and some of them premier league level... Makes his improvement of us even more impressive... most city managers in my memory, have struggled once they lost one player... let alone a few... Absolutely his tenure has not been without its challenges, but these are the challenges that the Steve Lansdown project will continually throw up. At some point you either deal with it or you move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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