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New man and Nagy


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I think what this thread identifies is the number of bang average midfield players we have, some of whom supporters will have genuinely forgotten we had on the books. Hopefully the new Manager will get rid of at least half a dozen (even more if possible) and bring in two that actually have proven ability to perform week in and week out at Championship level. Being harsh we don't need a 1 in 3 player like Paterson and being less harsh we certainly don't need a 1 in 15 games player like O'Dowda.

Difficult decisions will need to be made on Walsh, Morrell, Smodicz and a few others. Are they First Team starters at Championship level or not and by that I don't mean treading water whilst the player alongside them helps them out? Can they hold down a regular place on merit or not? If not, and it's going to take more than another six months to get to that point, get rid. If everyone wants us to progress upwards then that's where we are as a club. No room for sentiment or pissing about. A relatively small squad of higher quality players supplemented by our best young 1st/2nd year Pro/Academy talent is what we can afford.

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15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He’s a player.  Vaulks too had he not got back in the Cardiff team would give you that CM that can play CB.

Was listening to Mrkt Insights pod the other day, and the two Rotherham players I would’ve liked were Vaulks and Ajayi (£1.5m, yep £1.5m....but you aren’t gonna best off West Brom).  He was the opposite, a CB that could play CM.  That game when they had two sent off, he started at the back and then moved into midfield....he looked class.

That’s probably Nagy in a nutshell for me.  As you know I think he’s decent, and I really like the way he gives angles for receiving the ball, gives and gets, etc.  Those are his strengths undoubtedly.  In a Fulham side of 17/18 he’d be getting 100+ passes every week.

But his weaknesses are:

  • range of passing, he’s not gonna ping a 40/50 yard ball from right centre midfield over the opposite right centre back’s head.  I’m ok that he can’t do that, but then you need a complimentary player in there that can
  • defensive positioning, I’m a bit open on this.  He’s predominantly played with Smith and it could be a responsibility thing, that Smith’s got the role to protect the 2xCBs....but even so, sometimes you’ve got to just do it yourself by instinct.  Cardiff goal was an example.
  • physicality, he needs to build himself uP

Injuries haven’t helped.  This should’ve been a settling in season in reality.  A short close-season isn’t gonna help.  I’ve not been convinced by his interviews, that appear to show mental weakness.  Again, some of that may be down to literal translation.

Its not like City to have a midfielder that splits opinion is it 😂

Fulham link is interesting.

With Walsh returning I think he can form an interesting partnership with Nagy and the right manager can get us playing passing possession football.....with Walsh and nagy we have 2 players who can do it.....would be good to watch.

Just now, Malvern Red said:

I don’t think we have seen enough of Nagy performing at his best yet to be accused of not understanding his class.... it would be like trying to make the case that Dylan is a great songwriter having only heard Self Portrait and Down In The Groove.

Who said anything about "not understanding his class"?

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14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He’s a player.  Vaulks too had he not got back in the Cardiff team would give you that CM that can play CB.

Was listening to Mrkt Insights pod the other day, and the two Rotherham players I would’ve liked were Vaulks and Ajayi (£1.5m, yep £1.5m....but you aren’t gonna best off West Brom).  He was the opposite, a CB that could play CM.  That game when they had two sent off, he started at the back and then moved into midfield....he looked class.

That’s probably Nagy in a nutshell for me.  As you know I think he’s decent, and I really like the way he gives angles for receiving the ball, gives and gets, etc.  Those are his strengths undoubtedly.  In a Fulham side of 17/18 he’d be getting 100+ passes every week.

But his weaknesses are:

  • range of passing, he’s not gonna ping a 40/50 yard ball from right centre midfield over the opposite right centre back’s head.  I’m ok that he can’t do that, but then you need a complimentary player in there that can
  • defensive positioning, I’m a bit open on this.  He’s predominantly played with Smith and it could be a responsibility thing, that Smith’s got the role to protect the 2xCBs....but even so, sometimes you’ve got to just do it yourself by instinct.  Cardiff goal was an example.
  • physicality, he needs to build himself uP

Injuries haven’t helped.  This should’ve been a settling in season in reality.  A short close-season isn’t gonna help.  I’ve not been convinced by his interviews, that appear to show mental weakness.  Again, some of that may be down to literal translation.

Its not like City to have a midfielder that splits opinion is it 😂

I was more keen on Vaulks to come here as a centre back than a midfielder based on how he played against us. Dominant and great on the ball at the back.

He's actually done really well in midfield since Harris came in. I like those type of versatile options in a squad. 

Ajayi was an absolute bargain for West Brom. Don't know how they got him so cheap. Would have been a fantastic signing for us.

Chalobah now has 2 seasons of championship experience. 6 foot 3 and got everything it seems in pace, power and good on the ball.

He has started playing right back for Huddersfield and their fans are impressed. I know for that successful Chelsea under 23s side he played right back and mainly played centre back. 

It could be that we bring him in as a right back with the option of playing him at centre back or midfield if needed.

I'd sell Hunt if possible and I am not sure if we are bringing in Pereira. But if not then Chalobah and Vyner as right back options might be decent and gives us that Wright or Pisano type centre back type right back to give us good balance with Dasilva more attacking the other side.

I think 2 like Chalobah and Hutchinson would really give us nice options in centre back, right back and a bit of physicality in our midfield if we need it.

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5 minutes ago, RedNachos said:

I think he has a different view on what a midfielder should do. Nagy does not score, play the killer ball, win headers and make sliding tackles. He is a player that keeps the game ticking over with speed in his descions and making an option.  Without him or Korey in the side we lose shape and tempo. I think Harry has a different idea of how midfielders should perform and who is useful.

From year to year every time Korey picks up an injury we lose sharpness, tempo and a man to fill the holes. Nagy for me is an upgrade on 

Not true sir. I don’t expect Nagy to score, play killer balls, win headers and make sliding tackles. 
You completely simplify my thoughts. 
Of course, there are different types of midfielders, Smith was different to Pack, Pack different to Brownhill, Brownhill different time Nagy, Nagy different time Walsh etc. I don’t pigeon-hole all midfielders as having to produce goals, assists, headers & tackles. 
 

What I see in Nagy, is a bloke with energy and desire, but a lack of passing ability, awareness and positioning. I don’t see what position he is supposed to fulfil. As you say, he’s not the Brownhill-type (ie cleverly linking up with the attacks, creating good movement wide), he isn’t a Smith (ie a fireman, sensing danger and closing gaps) and he isn’t a Pack (ie the predominant ball receiver, dictating tempo). 
He can run a lot, he closes down all over, which is sometimes great but mostly leaves gaps where he’s sacrificed his shape to chase the ball. He can pass a bit, but only effectively as a 10-15 yard passer, he doesn’t have any switch-up ability. So he is neither an effective passer, nor a defensive lynchpin. I’d rather him be replaced. 

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Just now, Harry said:

Not true sir. I don’t expect Nagy to score, play killer balls, win headers and make sliding tackles. 
You completely simplify my thoughts. 
Of course, there are different types of midfielders, Smith was different to Pack, Pack different to Brownhill, Brownhill different time Nagy, Nagy different time Walsh etc. I don’t pigeon-hole all midfielders as having to produce goals, assists, headers & tackles. 
 

What I see in Nagy, is a bloke with energy and desire, but a lack of passing ability, awareness and positioning. I don’t see what position he is supposed to fulfil. As you say, he’s not the Brownhill-type (ie cleverly linking up with the attacks, creating good movement wide), he isn’t a Smith (ie a fireman, sensing danger and closing gaps) and he isn’t a Pack (ie the predominant ball receiver, dictating tempo). 
He can run a lot, he closes down all over, which is sometimes great but mostly leaves gaps where he’s sacrificed his shape to chase the ball. He can pass a bit, but only effectively as a 10-15 yard passer, he doesn’t have any switch-up ability. So he is neither an effective passer, nor a defensive lynchpin. I’d rather him be replaced. 

A lack of awareness? You do know to drop into space and pick up the ball you need to find the space....which requires awareness.

I genuinly question some peoples inability to see the most basic of things 

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Just now, Lez said:

A lack of awareness? You do know to drop into space and pick up the ball you need to find the space....which requires awareness.

I genuinly question some peoples inability to see the most basic of things 

Off the ball. 
He plays like an 8 year old, chasing the ball and not being aware of the danger he’s leaving behind him. 
See the Cardiff goal for evidence. There’s lots more of that type of ‘unawareness’ I’ve seen from him. 

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1 minute ago, Harry said:

Off the ball. 
He plays like an 8 year old, chasing the ball and not being aware of the danger he’s leaving behind him. 
See the Cardiff goal for evidence. There’s lots more of that type of ‘unawareness’ I’ve seen from him. 

He plays like an 8 year old. How many caps for Hungary and in Serie A? 

The issue here for you is that he isnt Marlon Pack and you've never got over him leaving. Dont be bitter.

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1 minute ago, Super said:

Xavi and Iniesta were small....😂😂

Of course small players can also be great players but our midfield would be exceptionally small if Szmodics, Morell and co played with Wells up front.  We have depended upon Famara to defend set plays and he has been sensationally good in that respect but we may lose him as well.  I just feel that we lack a bit of height any beef in many games and would like to see this improved next season.

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9 minutes ago, Lez said:

Fulham link is interesting.

With Walsh returning I think he can form an interesting partnership with Nagy and the right manager can get us playing passing possession football.....with Walsh and nagy we have 2 players who can do it.....would be good to watch.

Who said anything about "not understanding his class"?

 

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

Not true sir. I don’t expect Nagy to score, play killer balls, win headers and make sliding tackles. 
You completely simplify my thoughts. 
Of course, there are different types of midfielders, Smith was different to Pack, Pack different to Brownhill, Brownhill different time Nagy, Nagy different time Walsh etc. I don’t pigeon-hole all midfielders as having to produce goals, assists, headers & tackles. 
 

What I see in Nagy, is a bloke with energy and desire, but a lack of passing ability, awareness and positioning. I don’t see what position he is supposed to fulfil. As you say, he’s not the Brownhill-type (ie cleverly linking up with the attacks, creating good movement wide), he isn’t a Smith (ie a fireman, sensing danger and closing gaps) and he isn’t a Pack (ie the predominant ball receiver, dictating tempo). 
He can run a lot, he closes down all over, which is sometimes great but mostly leaves gaps where he’s sacrificed his shape to chase the ball. He can pass a bit, but only effectively as a 10-15 yard passer, he doesn’t have any switch-up ability. So he is neither an effective passer, nor a defensive lynchpin. I’d rather him be replaced. 

Agree with virtually all that.

5 minutes ago, Lez said:

A lack of awareness? You do know to drop into space and pick up the ball you need to find the space....which requires awareness.

I genuinly question some peoples inability to see the most basic of things 

Lez, most of your posts in this thread focus entirely on Nagy with us in possession (either with Nagy on the ball or trying to receive).  People like Harry, myself and others have pointed out the other “half” of his game...when we don’t have the ball.  And that is our biggest concern.

You can’t play the lovely passing football you think Nagy would fit into if you don’t get the ball in the first place.

I think my final bold comment above is why some of us are continuing to critique your opinion, because we feel it is YOU that’s missing the “most basic things”.

If you acknowledge some of the points we are making, disagree with them if you like, put your side of the argument across, then maybe we have a better debate.

I would suggest that some of the people you are saying no little about the game, do know quite a bit, as they have been involved in the pro game.

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Just now, Davefevs said:

 

Agree with virtually all that.

Lez, most of your posts in this thread focus entirely on Nagy with us in possession (either with Nagy on the ball or trying to receive).  People like Harry, myself and others have pointed out the other “half” of his game...when we don’t have the ball.  And that is our biggest concern.

You can’t play the lovely passing football you think Nagy would fit into if you don’t get the ball in the first place.

I think my final bold comment above is why some of us are continuing to critique your opinion, because we feel it is YOU that’s missing the “most basic things”.

If you acknowledge some of the points we are making, disagree with them if you like, put your side of the argument across, then maybe we have a better debate.

I would suggest that some of the people you are saying no little about the game, do know quite a bit, as they have been involved in the pro game.

Since when are we a side that never has the ball....we arent a 30% possession side are we? 

Let's have a look:

Hull - 55%

Cardiff - 52% 

Notts forest- 56%

Sheff Wed - 51%

Blackburn - 55%

So you state we never have the ball and therefore cant play possession football.....yet in the 5 games since returning we have had over 50% in all the games.....!

I'm sorry, but clearly you dont understand what else can I say.

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10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Agree with virtually all that.

Lez, most of your posts in this thread focus entirely on Nagy with us in possession (either with Nagy on the ball or trying to receive).  People like Harry, myself and others have pointed out the other “half” of his game...when we don’t have the ball.  And that is our biggest concern.

You can’t play the lovely passing football you think Nagy would fit into if you don’t get the ball in the first place.

I think my final bold comment above is why some of us are continuing to critique your opinion, because we feel it is YOU that’s missing the “most basic things”.

If you acknowledge some of the points we are making, disagree with them if you like, put your side of the argument across, then maybe we have a better debate.

I would suggest that some of the people you are saying no little about the game, do know quite a bit, as they have been involved in the pro game.

For me Nagy's most important trait is that he makes an option whenever we're on the ball. 80% of the time there is a free pass to Adam Nagy. That is why he is caught out of position multiple times, which is very true as you pointed out. When we then lose the ball there are gaps. Morrell would be perfect to sweep up the mess, divert the counter and enhance the transition from defence to attack.

I agree with your point, but the reason that Nagy is leaves spaces when off the ball is his hunger and desire to create an option or makea run.

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8 minutes ago, Lez said:

Since when are we a side that never has the ball....we arent a 30% possession side are we? 

Let's have a look:

Hull - 55%

Cardiff - 52% 

Notts forest- 56%

Sheff Wed - 51%

Blackburn - 55%

So you state we never have the ball and therefore cant play possession football.....yet in the 5 games since returning we have had over 50% in all the games.....!

I'm sorry, but clearly you dont understand what else can I say.

It’s not having the ball, it’s what you do with it that’s important. 

 

Frankly, we’re a mess at the moment. No shape, fluidity or rhythm, little movement or bottle.

Our lightweight midfield, including Nagy, has a lot to answer for in that respect. 

 

Quite how, having had a midfield ‘general’ in charge of us for 4.5 years, this has come about is beyond me. 

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2 minutes ago, RedRock said:

It’s not having the ball, it’s what you do with it that’s important. 

 

Frankly, we’re a mess at the moment. No shape, fluidity or rhythm, little movement or bottle.

Our lightweight midfield, including Nagy, has a lot to answer for in that respect. 

 

Quite how, having had a midfield ‘general’ in charge of us for 4.5 years, this has come about is beyond me. 

The pass rating and chances created % for Nagy is higher than any other cm since weve returned. But I agree, he cant do it by himself.

But I agree we need more steel in there.....Smith is passed it and Massengo has clearly regressed since LJ got a grip on him.

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1 minute ago, RedRock said:

It’s not having the ball, it’s what you do with it that’s important. 

 

Frankly, we’re a mess at the moment. No shape, fluidity or rhythm, little movement or bottle.

Our lightweight midfield, including Nagy, has a lot to answer for in that respect. 

 

Quite how, having had a midfield ‘general’ in charge of us for 4.5 years, this has come about is beyond me. 

I agree with almost all you've said there. The problem I see however is we're playing route 1 hoof it to Fammy from either Keeper or defence. Therfore the midfield cannot use the ball and create chances with it, this is very simply Johsnon's tactics becoming unstuck and he and only he can be blamed. 

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12 minutes ago, Lez said:

Since when are we a side that never has the ball....we arent a 30% possession side are we? 

Let's have a look:

Hull - 55%

Cardiff - 52% 

Notts forest- 56%

Sheff Wed - 51%

Blackburn - 55%

So you state we never have the ball and therefore cant play possession football.....yet in the 5 games since returning we have had over 50% in all the games.....!

I'm sorry, but clearly you dont understand what else can I say.

You need context for where on the pitch we have possession, we often keep the ball at the back until something opens up, a large chunk of that possession could easily be our defenders, if you had a heat map for where we had possession I'd wager a very bright section where our defence would be and in a DM area of the pitch with our midfield dropping deep collect often passing it back.

Also a lot of teams know we've been more dangerous on counters this season and struggle to break teams down and in turn once they take the lead are happy for us to have the ball.

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1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

You need context for where on the pitch we have possession, we often keep the ball at the back until something opens up, a large chunk of that possession could easily be our defenders, if you had a heat map for where we had possession I'd wager a very bright section where our defence would be and in a DM area of the pitch with our midfield dropping deep collect often passing it back.

Also a lot of teams know we've been more dangerous on counters this season and struggle to break teams down and in turn once they take the lead are happy for us to have the ball.

The majority of teams in the championship are happy for the opposition to have the ball.....but it's irrelevant to the point, as the poster wrongly said we dont have possession when evidently we do.

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Bit of context for our centre mids against Cardiff, this is a pass map for Smith and Nagy, lots of passing wide given we were looking to get crosses into the box, lots of dropping deep to collect the ball, but not much getting beyond the opposition midfield line (yellow dots) and look in the red square, a real lack of forward passes attempted into the forwards.

image.thumb.png.e16f4be44179d7fb01e71cec6de4c204.png

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4 minutes ago, RedNachos said:

I agree with almost all you've said there. The problem I see however is we're playing route 1 hoof it to Fammy from either Keeper or defence. Therfore the midfield cannot use the ball and create chances with it, this is very simply Johsnon's tactics becoming unstuck and he and only he can be blamed. 

Yep, how can we expect to have patterns of play when we play a different formation every week and players in different positions.

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1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

Bit of context for our centre mids against Cardiff, this is a pass map for Smith and Nagy, lots of passing wide given we were looking to get crosses into the box, lots of dropping deep to collect the ball, but not much getting beyond the opposition midfield line (yellow dots) and look in the red square, a real lack of forward passes attempted. 

image.thumb.png.e16f4be44179d7fb01e71cec6de4c204.png

Did we play 442 against Cardiff? That will explain why so few passes directly forward then.....I would argue this stat is more damning of our wide players than Smith and nagy.

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20 minutes ago, Lez said:

Since when are we a side that never has the ball....we arent a 30% possession side are we? 

Let's have a look:

Hull - 55%

Cardiff - 52% 

Notts forest- 56%

Sheff Wed - 51%

Blackburn - 55%

So you state we never have the ball and therefore cant play possession football.....yet in the 5 games since returning we have had over 50% in all the games.....!

I'm sorry, but clearly you dont understand what else can I say.

Where has your anger come from Lez.

In those games where were our main possession zones?

Who said anything about 30%?  Why throw a number in like that?  We’ve been below 40% in quite a few games this season.

5742FEDD-D774-4D76-87E1-37E69E13C4EF.thumb.jpeg.3e197536ed90120471cf55a401c1e0cd.jpeg
 

instead of having a go at the poster (and your perceived view that they know less than you), why not answer their question?  If you are the self acclaimed expert you say you are you’ll have no problem telling us how good Nagy is off the ball, and what he brings shape-wise to our set up.

Overall this season, Bristol City have had less of the ball than their opponents.

 

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2 minutes ago, Lez said:

The majority of teams in the championship are happy for the opposition to have the ball.....but it's irrelevant to the point, as the poster wrongly said we dont have possession when evidently we do.

I know he said "You can’t play the lovely passing football you think Nagy would fit into if you don’t get the ball in the first place" but I assume he means the 45% of the ball where we don't have possession is the issue.

God knows why you're so argumentative on this issue. If you have a crush on Nagy, it's cool, no-one thinks he's rubbish or anything.

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1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

You need context for where on the pitch we have possession, we often keep the ball at the back until something opens up, a large chunk of that possession could easily be our defenders, if you had a heat map for where we had possession I'd wager a very bright section where our defence would be and in a DM area of the pitch with our midfield dropping deep collect often passing it back.

Also a lot of teams know we've been more dangerous on counters this season and struggle to break teams down and in turn once they take the lead are happy for us to have the ball.

Yep. If we go back to when Pack was playing we would pass it loads in what LJ calls the 'safe zone'. 

Not exactly impressive. All about getting it forwards along the ground, not backwards and sideways. That's why Webster was so important as he could just run with it to more advanced areas of the pitch.

The other day Paterson was the only player driving us on. Korey used to be able to do it a bit but seems less capable recently. Weimann was invisible to receive forward passes. We end up having to lump it long.

No wonder Wells doesn't look the same player for us.

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44 minutes ago, Harry said:

Off the ball. 
He plays like an 8 year old, chasing the ball and not being aware of the danger he’s leaving behind him. 
See the Cardiff goal for evidence. There’s lots more of that type of ‘unawareness’ I’ve seen from him. 

Getting away from adults can't really play like eight year olds as they think with a different part of the brain .. Shape and consistency alters behaviour and awareness via repetition is highly coachable. Bristol City have had little of the former and being unaware/lacking responsibility can apply to several players. 

The player is not without ability. Like others (numerous) he has not progressed. It is not necessarily a reason to write the player off. 

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4 minutes ago, Lez said:

The majority of teams in the championship are happy for the opposition to have the ball.....but it's irrelevant to the point, as the poster wrongly said we dont have possession when evidently we do.

Name some?

Ill help you, heres the top 6

96E7FB28-C83A-4170-A32C-C22612DD800A.jpeg.0f2326638cdb0106c89820cc8bd18c65.jpeg

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Just now, Davefevs said:

Where has your anger come from Lez.

In those games where were our main possession zones?

Who said anything about 30%?  Why throw a number in like that?  We’ve been below 40% in quite a few games this season.

5742FEDD-D774-4D76-87E1-37E69E13C4EF.thumb.jpeg.3e197536ed90120471cf55a401c1e0cd.jpeg
 

instead of having a go at the poster (and your perceived view that they know less than you), why not answer their question?  If you are the self acclaimed expert you say you are you’ll have no problem telling us how good Nagy is off the ball, and what he brings shape-wise to our set up.

Overall this season, Bristol City have had less of the ball than their opponents.

 

Quoting data that is 6-10 months old is exactly what I would expect to try and rescue an argument. How many of those games did Nagy play in by the way? 

Nagy isnt nearly as bad off the ball as people make out.....this idea he is a headless chicken is bollocks as well, in fact on too mang occasionally he is too deep and misses the opportunity to push on.

 

3 minutes ago, grifty said:

I know he said "You can’t play the lovely passing football you think Nagy would fit into if you don’t get the ball in the first place" but I assume he means the 45% of the ball where we don't have possession is the issue.

God knows why you're so argumentative on this issue. If you have a crush on Nagy, it's cool, no-one thinks he's rubbish or anything.

No dont think Nagy is that good actually very disappointing considering his first few games. Best cm we have though.

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22 minutes ago, RedNachos said:

For me Nagy's most important trait is that he makes an option whenever we're on the ball. 80% of the time there is a free pass to Adam Nagy. That is why he is caught out of position multiple times, which is very true as you pointed out. When we then lose the ball there are gaps. Morrell would be perfect to sweep up the mess, divert the counter and enhance the transition from defence to attack.

I agree with your point, but the reason that Nagy is leaves spaces when off the ball is his hunger and desire to create an option or makea run.

Perhaps he needs to be more disciplined / understand the risk / reward of trying to get on the ball?

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3 minutes ago, Lez said:

Did we play 442 against Cardiff? That will explain why so few passes directly forward then.....I would argue this stat is more damning of our wide players than Smith and nagy.

Not really, Wells and Diedhiou both like to come short and get involved with build up, I'm not talking passes into the penalty box but the space 10 yards outside it as well, I'd have expected to see a lot more passes into that area.

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